Denominations Dont Matter- Its all about Jesus

[ConfusedTim]

When i talk to some non catholic frinds about the history of the church where the bible came from etc all i get back is " Its all about Jesus and as long as we love him then thats all that matters" Are there any sughgested approaches coz I find that a real road block.

 

[MatthewBerkeley]

In a sense, they’re right, our faith is all about deepening our relationship with Jesus, so we can join Him in Heaven.
My first reaction to that would be, yes it’s all about Jesus, but not just our idea of Jesus. There is an objective truth surrounding the nature of Jesus, and the Catholic church gives as complete a picture as possible. Many Protestant denominations are formed due to an incorrect interpretation, a humane interpretation because something ‘doesn’t seem to make sense’ and ‘this is easier to believe’ (obvious examples include the Eucharist and Mary). Our faith isn’t of a humane nature, our understanding of our faith must come from the Lord.
I hope what I’ve said is all ok, I’m just coming from my own opinion on this.

 

[fdesales]

When i talk to some non catholic frinds about the history of the church where the bible came from etc all i get back is " Its all about Jesus and as long as we love him then thats all that matters" Are there any sughgested approaches coz I find that a real road block.

Point them to the times the Scriptures chastises the Judaizers. No doubt, these people “loved Jesus”, or at least their ideas of who He was. However, Paul et al felt otherwise on how God saw them.

The concept “it’s all about Jesus” should be better phrased “it’s about Love”. The Scriptures make provisions for those who love without knowledge of the Christ, such as n Romans 2, those who are “spiritually circumcised” and considered justified, despite having no knowledge of the Law - are obeying the Law written in their hearts. Those who love are in Christ, even if they do not know the historical Gospel.

However, this cannot be applied to those who know but choose to separate from the community of the Apostles. Note carefully how Paul speaks about these Judaizers and other schismatics. Clearly, the Judaizers were Christians who wanted to foist the Mosaic Law upon Gentile Christians. One Corinthians 3 says that God will destroy those who destroy the “temple”, the Body, the Church. In context, Paul is refering to schismatics who KNOW but refuse to do things God’s way.

God judges the heart.

Same ol’ story since Adam and Eve. Would Adam and Even been condemned if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if THEY DID NOT HEAR THE COMMAND FROM GOD? Disobedience to God is at stake.

Regards

 

[ConfusedTim]

i think whats happened is over time people realsied that mainstream protestant churches were man made and when objectively examined had some pretty fata flaws. So now rather than identify with any protestant denomination they prefer to say we are above that and simply boil it down to their version of worshipping Jesus. That way they get to do all the things they want such as sing and listen to good preaching wothout having to concern themselves with things they dont - such as confession, Eucharist, etc.

 

[nlm]

i think whats happened is over time people realsied that mainstream protestant churches were man made and when objectively examined had some pretty fata flaws. So now rather than identify with any protestant denomination they prefer to say we are above that and simply boil it down to their version of worshipping Jesus. That way they get to do all the things they want such as sing and listen to good preaching wothout having to concern themselves with things they dont - such as confession, Eucharist, etc.

It’s sad when statements like these are made. Yes we sing. Yes we listen to good preaching.Contrary to this statement we do confess.The big difference is that we confess to the One we sin against…God Himself.As a community of Christ followers we share in the Lord’s Supper and we do so in remembrance of Him as we are instructed to do so in the Gospel.Every time we share in the Lord’s Supper we receive the following instructions.
" You who are walking in fellowship with God and are in love and harmony with your neighbors;and you who do truly and earnestly repent of your sin and intend to lead a new life,following the commandements of God, and walking from this time in His holy ways, draw near with faith, and take this holy sacrement to your comfort;and meekly make your humble confession to Almighty God." These instructions are quite clear to me. If things are not right between God and me or between a neighbor and me… then I need to make things right BEFORE I partake in the sacrement. Is this not what we are instructed to do by Jesus in His word? God Bless NLM

 

[The_Reginator]

It’s sad when statements like these are made. Yes we sing. Yes we listen to good preaching.Contrary to this statement we do confess.The big difference is that we confess to the One we sin against…God Himself.As a community of Christ followers we share in the Lord’s Supper and we do so in remembrance of Him as we are instructed to do so in the Gospel.Every time we share in the Lord’s Supper we receive the following instructions.
" You who are walking in fellowship with God and are in love and harmony with your neighbors;and you who do truly and earnestly repent of your sin and intend to lead a new life,following the commandements of God, and walking from this time in His holy ways, draw near with faith, and take this holy sacrement to your comfort;and meekly make your humble confession to Almighty God." These instructions are quite clear to me. If things are not right between God and me or between a neighbor and me… then I need to make things right BEFORE I partake in the sacrement. Is this not what we are instructed to do by Jesus in His word? God Bless NLM

You say you were a Catholic for 50 years – I don’t understand how you don’t see the differences here.
Catholics DO confess their sins to God. We get to do so through His ordained priest who has been given authority to pronounce God’s forgiveness and absolution.
The Catholic (and Orthodox) Church is the only place where you don’t only partake in the Lord’s supper but also receive His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

(By the way, it sounds like you may be attending an Anglican service. I recall the minister saying “… Take this sacrament unto your comfort, making your humble confession meekly kneeling upon your knees…” Or words close to that. )

 

[Lief_Erikson]

When i talk to some non catholic frinds about the history of the church where the bible came from etc all i get back is " Its all about Jesus and as long as we love him then thats all that matters" Are there any sughgested approaches coz I find that a real road block.

Here’s a short answer. Denominational differences tend to exist where there are divisions over doctrine. Doctrines are statements about spiritual truth. Jesus said, “I am the Truth.” Therefore denominational differences are divisions from Jesus.

And here’s a longer answer.

First, some relevant scriptures:

Matthew 12:30, “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”

John 17:20-23, “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

Jesus prayed that we might be brought into perfection as one. Not as many divided churches but one united body. He also prayed that we might be one as He and His Father are one. That unity is TOTAL. No divisions whatsoever.

There can be no disagreements about the nature of truth between the Father that knows all things and the Son who said, “I AM the Truth.” Jesus never got a doctrine wrong. Christ prayed that we shall be one as He and His Father are one. There is no legitimate place for doctrinal disagreements in that, for the Father and the Son had none. Indeed, this calling is to the most perfect and complete unity, unity without sin, unity without error, unity in love, in truth, in flesh (via Eucharist), in Spirit, in baptism, in God, in possessions (we give freely, considering ourselves only stewards of property rather than its real owners), in everything that we are, we are called to be one and only in the Catholic Church is that ideal at once considered possible and present as established fact.

Jesus said that whoever does not gather with Him scatters. That is just what has happened to the Protestant Reformation. Endlessly propagating divisions.

Here’s what St. Paul wrote about that, “Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose.” 1 Corinthians 1:10

The scattering process in Protestantism is unceasing; the “essentials of faith,” Protestants share have become fewer and fewer over the centuries, and modern liberalism and relativism have shattered them completely in some denominations. On the other hand, the Catholic Church’s teaching has remained a bedrock of unchanging truth since the beginning of Christianity. All Catholics that are truly one with the Church are one with this truth, united in mind and heart, united in faith, in baptism, in Lord, united in ever increasing unity of love and selfless giving to one another and their fellow man. It is a perfection of unity present and alive in the Catholic Church, and most visibly and magnificently manifested in her saints. The saints are those that were most completely one while here on Earth, one in the Catholic Church, in the Truth and Life of God.

The Catholic Church opens the path to God fulfilling in our lives that incredible vision of unity. Denominationalism closes that path by asserting it’s okay to get by with a few agreements. It shuts the door on the unity Jesus preached in order to embrace the divisions Paul forbade.

 

[fdesales]

You say you were a Catholic for 50 years – I don’t understand how you don’t see the differences here.
Catholics DO confess their sins to God. We get to do so through His ordained priest who has been given authority to pronounce God’s forgiveness and absolution.
The Catholic (and Orthodox) Church is the only place where you don’t only partake in the Lord’s supper but also receive His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

(By the way, it sounds like you may be attending an Anglican service. I recall the minister saying “… Take this sacrament unto your comfort, making your humble confession meekly kneeling upon your knees…” Or words close to that. )

Good catch. Anglicans call THEMSELVES Catholic, but are not. Thus, he seems to be unaware of the fact that Confession is a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible, grace-filled moment of experiencing Jesus Christ. Thus, the Sacrament of Reconcilliation is confessing our sins to Jesus through a visible medium, the priest.

Regards

 

[nlm]

Good catch. Anglicans call THEMSELVES Catholic, but are not. Thus, he seems to be unaware of the fact that Confession is a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible, grace-filled moment of experiencing Jesus Christ. Thus, the Sacrament of Reconcilliation is confessing our sins to Jesus through a visible medium, the priest.

Regards

Having been Catholic for 50 years I am well aware of the sacrements including the sacrement of Reconcilliation.I am also very aware of what a sacrement is.Our denomination, which is not Anglican, has two sacrements, Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.God Bless. NLM

 

[nlm]

Here’s a short answer. Denominational differences tend to exist where there are divisions over doctrine. Doctrines are statements about spiritual truth. Jesus said, “I am the Truth.” Therefore denominational differences are divisions from Jesus.

And here’s a longer answer.

First, some relevant scriptures:

Matthew 12:30, “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”

John 17:20-23, “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

Jesus prayed that we might be brought into perfection as one. Not as many divided churches but one united body. He also prayed that we might be one as He and His Father are one. That unity is TOTAL. No divisions whatsoever.

There can be no disagreements about the nature of truth between the Father that knows all things and the Son who said, “I AM the Truth.” Jesus never got a doctrine wrong. Christ prayed that we shall be one as He and His Father are one. There is no legitimate place for doctrinal disagreements in that, for the Father and the Son had none. Indeed, this calling is to the most perfect and complete unity, unity without sin, unity without error, unity in love, in truth, in flesh (via Eucharist), in Spirit, in baptism, in God, in possessions (we give freely, considering ourselves only stewards of property rather than its real owners), in everything that we are, we are called to be one and only in the Catholic Church is that ideal at once considered possible and present as established fact.

Jesus said that whoever does not gather with Him scatters. That is just what has happened to the Protestant Reformation. Endlessly propagating divisions.

Here’s what St. Paul wrote about that, “Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose.” 1 Corinthians 1:10

The scattering process in Protestantism is unceasing; the “essentials of faith,” Protestants share have become fewer and fewer over the centuries, and modern liberalism and relativism have shattered them completely in some denominations. On the other hand, the Catholic Church’s teaching has remained a bedrock of unchanging truth since the beginning of Christianity. All Catholics that are truly one with the Church are one with this truth, united in mind and heart, united in faith, in baptism, in Lord, united in ever increasing unity of love and selfless giving to one another and their fellow man. It is a perfection of unity present and alive in the Catholic Church, and most visibly and magnificently manifested in her saints. The saints are those that were most completely one while here on Earth, one in the Catholic Church, in the Truth and Life of God.

The Catholic Church opens the path to God fulfilling in our lives that incredible vision of unity. Denominationalism closes that path by asserting it’s okay to get by with a few agreements. It shuts the door on the unity Jesus preached in order to embrace the divisions Paul forbade.

You neglected to mention the scriptural passage where Jesus tells us that where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is with them. Based on that promise ,I know He is present in our service each Sunday.God Bless. NLM

 

[Lief_Erikson]

nlm, Jesus probably is with your church, but that doesn’t mean your church is in the full relationship with Him that Jesus wants it to be in.

No Protestant denomination and precious few Protestant non-denominational Christians will claim to have everything right. The odds that you are right in all your doctrines and all the Protestants that disagree with you are wrong where they differ are astronomical against you.

Doctrines are statements of spiritual truth, and Jesus is the Truth. Therefore as long as any of your doctrines are wrong, you will be partly divided from Jesus, for you will be divided from spiritual truths that are one with Christ. St. Paul wrote that there should be no divisions in the Church and Jesus wrote that anyone who divides from Him “scatters.” There is endless scattering in Protestantism and a broad rejection of St. Paul’s call that there be no divisions- many Protestants say that the doctrinal divisions of Protestantism are okay because they agree in the “essentials.” Though the number of essentials agreed on in Protestantism has dwindled extensively over the centuries, and with the spread of non-denominationalism and relativism, the rate at which these accepted essentials are disappearing is accelerating fast. There is no denying that Protestantism is a “scattered” religion and chock full of divisions, whereas Catholicism has one faith even though many “Catholics” oppose parts of it.

 

[heathernoel]

While I am glad my protestant friends know part of the Truth, it wasn’t until I found The Church that knew the whole truth.

So, yes, I think our Protestant Brother and Sisters can go to Heaven. But they only have part of the Truth, and that’s why denomination matters

 

[Julian0404]

First, Jesus is not constrained by denominations, He will save whom He choses to save.
Second, Jesus “formed a denomination” in Matthew 16, in which He went so far as to give the power to bind and lose between heaven and earth.
Third, in John 20, the first act He initiates upon returning to the apostles after His resurection is the sacrament of Confession, again using the “binding” terminology and in the process reinforcing Matthew 16. Not only once, but twice from His own mouth, Jesus declares that binding power of the denomination He has formed.
Conclusion:
Jesus has not left it to ourselves to “form our own denomination” to puruse our Love of Him. He formed the one He wanted us to follow, why is that so hard to grasp?
And if “Pride” is the source of all sin, i.e. what I want, when I want it, how I want it, for as long as I want it, at no concern or consideration for others, especially Jesus". Then how is that any different from “self/direct confession” when you can read Jesus own words in John 20 and “absolutely know” that Jesus inserted humility as being foundational in confession, which is the opposite of “Pride”. In pride we sin, in humility we come to God’s chosen priest to confess.
However, “self/direct confession” is the same as "what I want, when I want it, how I want it etc. etc. etc. " It is PRIDE, not humility. How do you know God has forgiven your self/direct confession? In Jesus denomination, we hear it directly from the Priest, “And I forgive you your sins, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” - we know.
Self/direct confession is permited to a Catholic, only in an event of mortal danger where the likelihood of death is immenant and you will not have time or opportunity to confess to a Priest.

 

[ConfusedTim]

Having been Catholic for 50 years I am well aware of the sacrements including the sacrement of Reconcilliation.I am also very aware of what a sacrement is.Our denomination, which is not Anglican, has two sacrements, Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.God Bless. NLM

Just out of interest - were you a Roman Catholic?

 

[nlm]

nlm, Jesus probably is with your church, but that doesn’t mean your church is in the full relationship with Him that Jesus wants it to be in.

No Protestant denomination and precious few Protestant non-denominational Christians will claim to have everything right. The odds that you are right in all your doctrines and all the Protestants that disagree with you are wrong where they differ are astronomical against you.

Doctrines are statements of spiritual truth, and Jesus is the Truth. Therefore as long as any of your doctrines are wrong, you will be partly divided from Jesus, for you will be divided from spiritual truths that are one with Christ. St. Paul wrote that there should be no divisions in the Church and Jesus wrote that anyone who divides from Him “scatters.” There is endless scattering in Protestantism and a broad rejection of St. Paul’s call that there be no divisions- many Protestants say that the doctrinal divisions of Protestantism are okay because they agree in the “essentials.” Though the number of essentials agreed on in Protestantism has dwindled extensively over the centuries, and with the spread of non-denominationalism and relativism, the rate at which these accepted essentials are disappearing is accelerating fast. There is no denying that Protestantism is a “scattered” religion and chock full of divisions, whereas Catholicism has one faith even though many “Catholics” oppose parts of it.

You say no Protestant denomination will claim to have everything right.I would suggest that even the Roman Catholic Church does not get it right all the time.How are we to interpret the many changes made by the RCC over the years especially in the 60’s? Could this not be seen as not having everything right? In your closing line, are you saying there are no divisions within the Roman Catholic Church ?God Bless. NLM

 

[nlm]

Just out of interest - were you a Roman Catholic?

Yes I was.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

You say no Protestant denomination will claim to have everything right.I would suggest that even the Roman Catholic Church does not get it right all the time.How are we to interpret the many changes made by the RCC over the years especially in the 60’s? Could this not be seen as not having everything right?

Only by those who don’t understand how Vatican Councils work. Church practice, like the liturgies and rites, or various canon laws, can be changed. They aren’t meant to be infallible or set in stone. These are not the faith. They are the way we apply the faith. St. Paul writes, “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” This is what the Church does as far as rites, liturgies, methods of practicing the Mass, a great many non-infallible matters are treated. The Church has made these kinds of changes many times over the course of its history without ever changing the religion itself.

Vatican II, and many bishops throughout the last 2,000 years have changed Church practice in many ways, but the Church has never officially changed its dogmas, which represent the religion itself. Church practice is not infallible and is subject to change depending on how the bishops feel it is best applied in the culture and time period they live in. The dogmas are infallible, though, and they have never been and never will be changed.

This is extremely different from Protestantism, because in Protestantism the religion itself changes from person to person. Doctrines, “spiritual truths” differ from person to person, whereas in Catholicism the Magesterium has made them a constant and any Catholic who rejects these infallible teachings has broken communion with the Church.

 

[Carlan]

You say no Protestant denomination will claim to have everything right.I would suggest that even the Roman Catholic Church does not get it right all the time.How are we to interpret the many changes made by the RCC over the years especially in the 60’s? Could this not be seen as not having everything right? In your closing line, are you saying there are no divisions within the Roman Catholic Church ?God Bless. NLM

The revelation of God through Jesus Christ has never changed ever, It Is still being handed down through his one Apostolic Chur ch and will continue until the end of time. The gates of hell will not prevail against her.Nlm, Please point out each and every revelation added to or changed, those that you are referring to. If you can not ,say so on this thread. Thank you. Carlan

 

[nlm]

The revelation of God through Jesus Christ has never changed ever, It Is still being handed down through his one Apostolic Chur ch and will continue until the end of time. The gates of hell will not prevail against her.Nlm, Please point out each and every revelation added to or changed, those that you are referring to. If you can not ,say so on this thread. Thank you. Carlan

Who said anything about changes in the revelations of God through Jesus Christ other than yourself. I certainly did not. What I did say is that the RCC has made MANY changes in the last 40 plus years. Some of these were ,at least in the everyday lives of the congregants, major in nature.They went against everything they had been taught for decades.I know the reply here will be that they were changes in the rituals, the liturgy etc. and that the church has the right to make those changes.Yes, it does. But many had their faith shattered by those changes.I remember when receiving communion without fasting for 12 hours was a sin. I can remember when touching the consecrated host was a major sin. I can remember when touching the chalice and paten with one’s bare hands was a sin.I can remember when eating meat on Friday was a sin.I can also remember when parents were told their poor unbaptised infants who had died would never go to heaven.I can remember when not attending mass on Sunday was a sin. I could go on but I think you get the point.Are these fundamentally important to the faith? I am guessing the answer will be no.But for the front line congregant who worked VERY hard to adhere to all these " rules" and to have them evaporate overnight did not come easy.These changes did cause division within the church. Currently there are many issues still causing divisions.The role of women in the church.The issue of priests marrying. And the list goes on. Yes, protestants may well have division within their churches but I think this is not unique to them.God Bless. NLM

 

[nlm]

Only by those who don’t understand how Vatican Councils work. Church practice, like the liturgies and rites, or various canon laws, can be changed. They aren’t meant to be infallible or set in stone. These are not the faith. They are the way we apply the faith. St. Paul writes, “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” This is what the Church does as far as rites, liturgies, methods of practicing the Mass, a great many non-infallible matters are treated. The Church has made these kinds of changes many times over the course of its history without ever changing the religion itself.

Vatican II, and many bishops throughout the last 2,000 years have changed Church practice in many ways, but the Church has never officially changed its dogmas, which represent the religion itself. Church practice is not infallible and is subject to change depending on how the bishops feel it is best applied in the culture and time period they live in. The dogmas are infallible, though, and they have never been and never will be changed.

This is extremely different from Protestantism, because in Protestantism the religion itself changes from person to person. Doctrines, “spiritual truths” differ from person to person, whereas in Catholicism the Magesterium has made them a constant and any Catholic who rejects these infallible teachings has broken communion with the Church.

Can you explain what you mean when you say that in Protestantism the religion itself changes from person to person? As a member of the denomination I belong to I am bound by the discipline set down by those who are in the leadership role. As an individual I am not at liberty to change the discipline.You make it sound as though each person in our denomination does as he or she pleases.That is not the case.God Bless. NLM