Denominations which allow Women Pastors.

[GKC]

Sometimes it is best to personalize the subject as I hope to do with the attached video. To my knowledge, the Church of Sweden was the first among Catholics to ordain women. Even the Church of England, which has had full communion with these Lutherans since the 1800’s, stopped ecumenical relations with Uppsala for 10 years after the first Lutheran woman priest *.

Take a look at these women processing in the Hogmassa [Holy Mass]; the celebrant is carrying in the chalice, as is the custom among some Lutherans. All these joyous faces praising God.

youtube.com/watch?v=styhk1N8AmM*

But the question would be, can they validly confect the sacraments, as required.

Let me know when the RCC says they can.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Understood. Referencing scripture, confessions, et al, I am deflecting.
We will not agree on this, my brother.

His Peace,
Jon

Jon, we can fully disagree. I respect your position. But I also challenge you to state in the Augsburg Confession, the binding confession for all Lutherans, where I am wrong. Much about the faith is nuanced and not necessary for unity in Christ. Catholic bishops urging recognition of Lutheran ministry and real presence.

Francis, like blessed Benedict, has addressed this issue.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Jon, we can fully disagree. I respect your position. But I also challenge you to state in the Augsburg Confession, the binding confession for all Lutherans, where I am wrong. Much about the faith is nuanced and not necessary for unity in Christ. Catholic bishops urging recognition of Lutheran ministry and real presence.

Francis, like blessed Benedict, has addressed this issue.

As far as Catholic are concerned, or better said ‘not concerned’, what does it matter whether a Lutheran minister is a man or a woman? The Lutheran ministry is acknowledged as a good for those who are separated brethren, as the ministry can potentially draw many to Christ; on the other hand, none of these ministries are the Apostolic priesthood and there are no sacraments/mysteries being celebrated for Catholics to recognize. Christ is really present in Lutheran assemblies, as much as two or more are gathered in His Name. Whether Uppsala, Wisconsin, Missouri, Laestadian, Anglo-Lutheran, LWF or whatever, there are no Sacraments - especially Eucharist as Catholics understand it - taking place for Catholics to acknowledge, recognize or otherwise.

 

[steido01]

As far as Catholic are concerned, or better said ‘not concerned’, what does it matter whether a Lutheran minister is a man or a woman? The Lutheran ministry is acknowledged as a good for those who are separated brethren, as the ministry can potentially draw many to Christ; on the other hand, none of these ministries are the Apostolic priesthood and there are no sacraments/mysteries being celebrated for Catholics to recognize. Christ is really present in Lutheran assemblies, as much as two or more are gathered in His Name. Whether Uppsala, Wisconsin, Missouri, Laestadian, Anglo-Lutheran, LWF or whatever, there are no Sacraments - especially Eucharist as Catholics understand it - taking place for Catholics to acknowledge, recognize or otherwise.

I understand the position your communion takes regarding the existence of Sacraments outside of communion with Rome, but does it truly see no difference between those of us ‘seperated brethren’ who have essentially retained the forms and rites of the church catholic and those who have invented new doctrines, practices and offices? One would think that deference in inter-Christian dialogues would be given to those who are ‘less-separated.’

Just to feed the contrarian within me: Your communion does recognize our Baptisms as a valid Sacrament. And while I haven’t read anything to suggest that your Magisterium holds our Lord’s Supper to be equally valid as yours, Benedict’s words seem to suggest that the Lutheran Lord’s Supper does provide at least *something *more than the generic Protestant memorial:

An ecclesiology focused on the concept of succession, as it is held in the Catholic Church, need in no way deny the saving presence of the Lord in a Eucharist celebrated by Lutherans.

Emphasis mine.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, we can fully disagree. I respect your position. But I also challenge you to state in the Augsburg Confession, the binding confession for all Lutherans, where I am wrong. Much about the faith is nuanced and not necessary for unity in Christ. Catholic bishops urging recognition of Lutheran ministry and real presence.

Francis, like blessed Benedict, has addressed this issue.

Indeed, and there are not any Catholic women priests.

A few quotes:

Council of Nicaea I

“Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity” (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).

John Chrysostom

“[W]hen one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature” (The Priesthood 2:2 [A.D. 387]).

Francis Peiper
… Holy Scripture excludes Christian women from all public teaching in the presence of men. Paul’s injunction is expressed in two passages. In 1 Tim. 2,11-14 he says: “Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp the authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression.” [In] 1 Cor. 14,34.35 his mandate reads: “Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the Law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
Against these passages the objection has been raised that St. Paul here was simply defending an Oriental custom which is no longer binding in the New Testament, especially not in the United States, thousands of miles from the Orient. To this we reply: These texts do not show in any way that the command must be limited to a certain locality (viz., the Orient) or to a certain age. Rather, they indicate that the prohibition is to be in force in all places and at all times until Judgment Day.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

As far as Catholic are concerned, or better said ‘not concerned’, what does it matter whether a Lutheran minister is a man or a woman? The Lutheran ministry is acknowledged as a good for those who are separated brethren, as the ministry can potentially draw many to Christ; on the other hand, none of these ministries are the Apostolic priesthood and there are no sacraments/mysteries being celebrated for Catholics to recognize. Christ is really present in Lutheran assemblies, as much as two or more are gathered in His Name. Whether Uppsala, Wisconsin, Missouri, Laestadian, Anglo-Lutheran, LWF or whatever, there are no Sacraments - especially Eucharist as Catholics understand it - taking place for Catholics to acknowledge, recognize or otherwise.

Yep, the Catholic position on the matter, except I think Baptism and marriage.

Jon

 

[Qaletaqa]

Is it the fact that a woman is holding up her arms heavenward that makes it a Mass?

i wasn’t posting it to show that the woman was conducting a mass merely what the poster was stating about the painting,

 

[PRmerger]

i wasn’t posting it to show that the woman was conducting a mass merely what the poster was stating about the painting,

I was asking for some sources that provide evidence that the catacombs show women celebrating Mass.

I don’t think there is any evidence for this, but I am willing to consider it, should some evidence be provided.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I understand the position your communion takes regarding the existence of Sacraments outside of communion with Rome, but does it truly see no difference between those of us ‘seperated brethren’ who have essentially retained the forms and rites of the church catholic and those who have invented new doctrines, practices and offices? One would think that deference in inter-Christian dialogues would be given to those who are ‘less-separated.’

Of course, in the course of reunion/ecumenical discussions, Catholics would prefer that protestants remove as little as possible and retain what is Catholics as much as possible; this makes it easier to digest with less to feel uncomfortable with.

Just to feed the contrarian within me: Your communion does recognize our Baptisms as a valid Sacrament. And while I haven’t read anything to suggest that your Magisterium holds our Lord’s Supper to be equally valid as yours, Benedict’s words seem to suggest that the Lutheran Lord’s Supper does provide at least *something *more than the generic Protestant memorial:
An ecclesiology focused on the concept of succession, as it is held in the Catholic Church, need in no way deny the saving presence of the Lord in a Eucharist celebrated by Lutherans.
Emphasis mine.

Not necessarily, this quote is in regard to the Apostolic Episcopate and Succession, in comparison and contrast to the Lutheran model most commonly used with pastoral ordination. The point emphasized here is that Lord is present where two or more are gathered - the Lutheran Worship Service is what is being discussed. The Lord saves in the sincere prayers of the faithful, in the hearing of the Word, and in the good will of the assembled.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Of course, in the course of reunion/ecumenical discussions, Catholics would prefer that protestants remove as little as possible and retain what is Catholics as much as possible; this makes it easier to digest with less to feel uncomfortable with.

Not necessarily, this quote is in regard to the Apostolic Episcopate and Succession, in comparison and contrast to the Lutheran model most commonly used with pastoral ordination. The point emphasized here is that Lord is present where two or more are gathered - the Lutheran Worship Service is what is being discussed. The Lord saves in the sincere prayers of the faithful, in the hearing of the Word, and in the good will of the assembled.

Have your read From Conflict to Communion/ Declaration on Doctrine of Justification?

1. The question of the reality of the presence of Jesus Christ in the Lord’s
   Supper is not a matter of controversy between Catholics and Lutherans.
   The Lutheran–Roman Catholic dialogue on the eucharist was able to
   state: »The Lutheran tradition affirms the Catholic tradition that the
   consecrated elements do not simply remain bread and wine but rather
   by the power of the creative word are given as the body and blood of
   Christ. In this sense Lutherans also could occasionally speak, as does
   the Greek tradition, of a change« (Eucharist 51).50 Both Catholics and
   Lutherans »have in common a rejection of a spatial or natural manner
   of presence, and a rejection of an understanding of the sacrament as
   only commemorative or figurative« (Eucharist 16).51
   Common
   w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html

 

[Sy_Noe]

Fair enough.

Catholicism was part of the discussion, then.

QED.

It’s not a semantics or vocabulary lesson I was explaining to you, Sy.

Rather, it’s a theological position. Very important distinction I was making for you.

I would hope that you will now be better informed and never use the term “Eucharistic Minister”, unless you are referring to a priest or deacon.

Again, the theology that is being posited is of great import. It is the foundation for understanding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The priest is the ordinary minister of Holy Communion, because it is he who confects the Eucharist.

The lay ministers are merely the extra-ordinary distributors.

Indeed informed is a good thing for all I would think to enhance understanding. And that I would think would be 2-way street on a non Catholic subforum. Both Catholics and non Catholics learning about each other’s various faiths. Peace.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Have your read From Conflict to Communion/ Declaration on Doctrine of Justification?

What about it, in regard to your quote? So Lutherans can “occasionally” agree with Catholics on Eucharist? This is progress? The section ends with:
161. Since the question of the presidency of the eucharistic celebration is ecumenically of great importance, the necessity of a church-appointed minister is a significant commonality identified by the dialogue: “Catholic and Lutheran Christians are of the conviction that the celebration of the Eucharist involves the leadership of a minister appointed by the church” (Eucharist 65). Nevertheless, Catholics and Lutherans still understand the office of ministry differently.
169. Because Luther’s definition of a sacrament was stricter than was common during the Middle Ages, and because he perceived the Catholic sacrament of holy orders as chiefly serving the practice of the sacrifice of the Mass, he ceased to view ordination as a sacrament. Melanchthon, however, stated in the Apology to the Augsburg Confession: “But if ordination is understood with reference to the ministry of the Word, we have no objection to calling ordination a sacrament. For the ministry of the Word has the command of God and has magnificent promises like Romans 1:16]: the gospel ‘is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith.’ Likewise, Isaiah 55:11], ‘…so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose….’ If ordination is understood in this way, we will not object to calling the laying on of hands as a sacrament. For the church has the mandate to appoint ministers, which ought to please us greatly because we know that God approves this ministry and is present in it.”(64)

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed informed is a good thing for all I would think to enhance understanding. And that I would think would be 2-way street on a non Catholic subforum. Both Catholics and non Catholics learning about each other’s various faiths. Peace.

Absolutely.

 

[Publisher]

Friends since their beginnings have recognized the gift of ministry some women have. Many of the best ministers among Friends have been women.

So Friends have had women ministers for over 350 years.

 

[steido01]

Have your read From Conflict to Communion/ Declaration on Doctrine of Justification?

Again, EC… Just because both communions hear what the other believes, doesn’t mean either side necessarily agrees. Do you understand the difference?

Also, is there an authoritative source outside of the dialogues -from either the Roman Catholic Magisterium or your ecclesial body- that concurs with your opinion that Rome and LWF congregations ought to receive at each other’s altars?

 

[PRmerger]

Again, EC… Just because both communions hear what the other believes, doesn’t mean either side necessarily agrees. Do you understand the difference?

Also, is there an authoritative source outside of the dialogues -from either the Roman Catholic Magisterium or your ecclesial body- that concurs with your opinion that Rome and LWF congregations ought to receive at each other’s altars?

 

[PRmerger]

Friends since their beginnings have recognized the gift of ministry some women have. Many of the best ministers among Friends have been women.

So Friends have had women ministers for over 350 years.

Yes, indeed. Women can be wonderful ministers.

But just so we’re on the same page: a minister is as different from a priest as a delicious piece of bread is from the Most Holy Eucharist. Or a novel of exquisite beauty and inspiration is from the Holy Bible.

 

[Qaletaqa]

I was asking for some sources that provide evidence that the catacombs show women celebrating Mass.

I don’t think there is any evidence for this, but I am willing to consider it, should some evidence be provided.

based on that is there any evidence to show that they are not celebrating a mass, it works both ways

 

[Publisher]

Yes, indeed. Women can be wonderful ministers.

But just so we’re on the same page: a minister is as different from a priest as a delicious piece of bread is from the Most Holy Eucharist. Or a novel of exquisite beauty and inspiration is from the Holy Bible.

I thought the thread was concerning women pastors, each Friend is a priest already by virtue of our inheritance with Christ, we have no need for priests in this world, our Great High Priest is sufficient.

 

[PRmerger]

based on that is there any evidence to show that they are not celebrating a mass, it works both ways

It was a poster here who proposed that the catacombs show women celebrating Mass.

It is therefore up to her to offer some sort of evidence for this.

If it is simply the fact that it is a woman raising her hands in prayer, that is clearly not sufficient.

Otherwise, we would interpret this as a woman celebrating Mass as well.

http://www.livingbetterat50.com/wp-...hy-Howard_woman-raising-hands-worshipping.jpg