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Caesar
Guest
Blessed Pius IX was a great Pope and a hero of the Church. He will never be “denounced”.
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rr1213
Guest
What makes you think that a Christian servant has the right to baptise a Jewish child against the wishes, or without the knowledge, of his parent? Especially if the consequences are that he will be removed from his parents?
It is quite interesting watching Catholics stumble over themselves in these threads trying to defend something that is inherently indefensible–something that they would be grossly offended by if it took place today or if the roles were reversed.
I want to see a Catholic defend the reverse situation…you know, in a Jewish state a Jewish servant circumcises a Catholic boy without the permission of the boy’s parents, necessitating his removal from their home. Go ahead, this should be fun…
It is quite interesting watching Catholics stumble over themselves in these threads trying to defend something that is inherently indefensible–something that they would be grossly offended by if it took place today or if the roles were reversed.
I want to see a Catholic defend the reverse situation…you know, in a Jewish state a Jewish servant circumcises a Catholic boy without the permission of the boy’s parents, necessitating his removal from their home. Go ahead, this should be fun…
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BeeSweet
Guest
Pius IX did not consider it kidnapping, he considered it saving the soul of a baptized Christian from forced apostasy. The incident would not have occurred had the baptism of Edgardo Mortara not occurred. The problem lies in the church’s state authority of the time. The fact that Pius IX was both a spiritual and state leader meant he had a responsibility to act as he did, it was a choice he was forced to make by virtue of his dual spiritual and state authority.
Just as we can not consider the state as having kidnapped a child from a neglectful parent, Pius IX can not be considered as having kidnapped Edgardo Mortara from a household that would assuredly neglect his baptismal promises, since by virtue of both his spiritual and state authority it was his responsibility to ensure such things for all baptized Christians.
Just as we can not consider the state as having kidnapped a child from a neglectful parent, Pius IX can not be considered as having kidnapped Edgardo Mortara from a household that would assuredly neglect his baptismal promises, since by virtue of both his spiritual and state authority it was his responsibility to ensure such things for all baptized Christians.
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Catholig
Guest
I’m not stumbling over myself, and I made my point. I don’t think it was wrong of Pope Pius, and I think that the family shouldn’t’ve broken the law.
Also whether or not it was right for the maid to do what she did, she did it and the child became a member of the body of Christ.
And in the reverse situation - the circumcision wouldn’t matter for one. It would have absolutely no effect on his soul. And two if the laws were the same, providing that the law isn’t directly opposed to any commandments, the catholics should/and would have to obey it.
Catholig
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Ammonius_Saccus
Guest
Who care what he considered it? It was kidnapping.
He could have changed the law. He had the authority. He was not forced to kidnap the child. He had the authority and was not forced to do anything. He was free to change the law.
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Catholig
Guest
Intention does matter - and BTW why does NO ONE care the the Jewish family broke the law?
Also did you or did you not already start another thread on this same topic Ammonius Saccus?
Catholig
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Ammonius_Saccus
Guest
I want to be clear on this. Michael Francis has said that to the Catholic Church kidnapping is never OK. But here Catholig is arguing that Pope Pius IX’s kidnapping of a jewish boy was not wrong.
Michael Francis, is Catholig one of the Catholics who is not giving accurate answers?
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Church_Militant
Guest
Link to your info?
If we’re going to discuss this, I suggest that sources be cited so everyone is on the same page.
I get the impression that this is not as much of a cut and dried situation as you have so far implied. We’ll wait and see.
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rr1213
Guest
And would this be your response if it was YOUR child who was taken from you?
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rr1213
Guest
Depends on just whose ox is being gored, doesn’t it? Let’s hope that this doesn’t happen to your children…
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Caesar
Guest
We went through this on another thread.And would this be your response if it was YOUR child who was taken from you?
But the facts remain- Pope Pius IX could very well have saved the soul of that child (he became a priest who had especial interesting in missionary work to the Jews), and the Church recognized that when Pope John Paul II beatified him.
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Catholig
Guest
I feel that I am giving an accurate answer, but please do tell me did you not already make a thread on this same subject? I think you did.
And as for it being kidnapping, I think that Pius IX felt that it was his OBLIGATION to bring the child up in the faith into which he’d been baptised.
Catholig
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Catholig
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denver_faithful
Guest
[In 1859, after Bologna had been annexed to Piedmont, the Mortara parents made another effort to recover their son, but he had been taken to Rome. In 1870, when Rome was captured from the Pope, they tried again, but Edgardo was then 19 and therefore legally an adult, and had declared his firm intention of remaining a Catholic. In that year, he moved his residence to France. The following year, his father died. In France, he entered the Augustinian order, being ordained a priest at the age of 23, and adopted the spiritual name Pius. He is also known as Pio Maria. Fr. Edgardo Mortara was sent as a missionary to cities such as Munich, Mainz and Breslau to preach to the Jews there, however in most cases with little effect. He became fluent in a variety of languages.
In 1912, in his written statement in favor of the beatification of Pius IX, Mortara recalled his own feelings about the abduction: “Eight days later, my parents presented themselves to the Institute of Neophytes to initiate the complex procedures to get me back in the family. As they had complete freedom to see me and talk with me, they remained in Rome for a month, coming every day to visit me. Needless to say, they tried every means to get me back - caresses, tears, pleas and promises. Despite all this, I never showed the slightest desire to return to my family, a fact which I do not understand myself, except by looking at the power of supernatural grace.” ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara)
In 1912, in his written statement in favor of the beatification of Pius IX, Mortara recalled his own feelings about the abduction: “Eight days later, my parents presented themselves to the Institute of Neophytes to initiate the complex procedures to get me back in the family. As they had complete freedom to see me and talk with me, they remained in Rome for a month, coming every day to visit me. Needless to say, they tried every means to get me back - caresses, tears, pleas and promises. Despite all this, I never showed the slightest desire to return to my family, a fact which I do not understand myself, except by looking at the power of supernatural grace.” ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara)
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rr1213
Guest
Yep, that’s why I knew this thread would be equally entertaining…watching so many otherwise reasonable people try to rationalize what, in their own hearts, they KNOW is an indefensible situation.
I don’t think that a single Catholic or other person here believes that it would be right for an Islamic government to take away children from Christian families so that they can be raised Moslem…indeed, we’d have 50 threads decrying the horror and sin of such a thing–yet, let a POPE do it and it JUST MUST be right. And I thought that Popes were infallable only when they defined doctrine ex cathedra. Based on what you see in these threads you have a boatload of people who are perfectly incapable of realizing that even a Pope can err in his personal actions.
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rr1213
Guest
I don’t know you so I wouldn’t assume that you’d break the law. So, you think removing a child from his parents is just punishment for breaking an ordinance forbidding you from hiring a servant of another faith?
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Ammonius_Saccus
Guest
This was not just a personal action. This was an official action.
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rr1213
Guest
Children are impressionable. What did St. Ignatius say? “Give me a child until he is 7, and I will give you the man.”
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Catholig
Guest
Well, I don’t think I’d condemn Pius for this. And I think that he did what he felt was right. He brought the child up to be Catholic - as he was baptised. He didn’t kidnap a 1,000 or 10,000 Jewish children - he took one ethnic Jew who had entered the body of Christ, and the Catholic Church. He didn’t condon forced baptisms, either.
Catholig
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Ammonius_Saccus
Guest
I did not start a thread on this subject before. This thread is about denouncing Pope Pius IX. Michael Francis told me that the Catholic Church’s position is that all kidnapping is wrong (this would include Pope Pius IX’s kidnapping of a Jewish boy.) You keep trying to change this thread by arguing that kidnapping is not always wrong. This thread is not about whether kidnapping is wrong.
This thread is about why the Catholic Church has not denounced a kidnapper, but has instead declared that a kidnapper is heroic in virtue.
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