deny communion

[Bob_Aliano]

Any one who knows me will think I’ve finally lost it but I have a problem with EMHC, maybe even priests denying communion to anyone. We may “know” the person before us is a sinner, Atheist, gay marriage or abortion supporter, or at least we “knew” that was true when we last checked. We do not know that person’s state of grace at the moment of communion. I believe that uncertainty, not the bishops’ compassion, is why so many politicians are still not being denied communion. Am I wrong here?

 

[zab]

Any one who knows me will think I’ve finally lost it but I have a problem with EMHC, maybe even priests denying communion to anyone. We may “know” the person before us is a sinner, Atheist, gay marriage or abortion supporter, or at least we “knew” that was true when we last checked. We do not know that person’s state of grace at the moment of communion. I believe that uncertainty, not the bishops’ compassion, is why so many politicians are still not being denied communion. Am I wrong here?

In this case, I believe there is clear indication of the person’s belief by the response he gave.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Normally you shouldn’t be able to deny the Eucharist. Given the circumstance, I believe you have the very right, given that the person made a profession of their (dis)belief right there and then. Relay this incident to the Pastor/Chaplain to justify your action, I’m sure he’ll agree.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

In this case, I believe there is clear indication of the person’s belief by the response he gave.

You’re right, I shouldn’t have expanded to a more general condition.

 

[Domnall]

OP, I really suggest that you stick with the ministry. Our EMHC should be people more like you–with a love for the Eucharist. Say you resign because you would feel uncomfortable distributing communion to this person (or any person), just think, someone else will give them communion. Just be brave–you’re not desecrating the sacrament, Jesus understands.

 

[joandarc2008]

What did they say in your EHMC training and if you did not have EHMC training - why? BTW you are NOT a Eucharistic Minister you are an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion - to be a Eucharistic Minister denotes that you have a role in consecration which is reserved for the Ordained in which case you would have no problem denying this boy Eucharist and we would not have this thread.

 

[FirstCalled]

One of the reasons I resigned as EMHC was the prospect of denying communion to those I KNEW should not be receiving.
You did the right thing. If the priest doesn’t agree, resign.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Any one who knows me will think I’ve finally lost it but I have a problem with EMHC, maybe even priests denying communion to anyone. We may “know” the person before us is a sinner, Atheist, gay marriage or abortion supporter, or at least we “knew” that was true when we last checked. We do not know that person’s state of grace at the moment of communion. I believe that uncertainty, not the bishops’ compassion, is why so many politicians are still not being denied communion. Am I wrong here?

Under normal circumstances, I agree with you. But when one is making such a profession in the Communion line, then it gives you a reason right there and then to deny the person.

 

[thistle]

Your summary of the issue would be fine if the person just came up for communion and said “I am an atheist give me communion.” The problem is the OP first said “aren’t you an atheist?” This is where the judging from the OP came in. Technically all an EMHC is supposed to say is “Blood of Christ” or “Body of Christ” to a person presenting themselves for communion (unless they are involved in the sacrement for the sick.)

If the person felt uncomfortable about this due to prior knowledge they should have referred the person to the priest’s line. As I said before the EMHC should bring this up with the priest and then after that they have only three real options:

1. do what the priest says
2. resign as an EMHC
3. bring it up with a higher authority

The OPsaid he knew the person and that he was an atheist PRIOR to the person coming up to receive. Asking “aren’t you an atheist” is not judging. Its getting confirmation of what he already knew. If you know somebody is an atheist then they must be refused Communion.
This is different from knowing the person is a Catholic and even that he was in a state of mortal sin (lets say the person told him prior to entering the Church for Mass). In such a case the EMHC cannot deny the person Communion.
But a known atheist?? Give us a break. You cannot distribute to a known atheist!!

 

[HCC]

This is not a thred to debate extraordinary ministers of the eucharist. Stay on topic.

I was a eucharistic minister today at a school mass. While I was distributing a guy I know came up to receive. He is a strong athiest and mocks religion. I asked him there “aren’t you an atheist?” “Yes I am. Give it to me it tastes good,” he said.

So I denied him.

He told head of campus ministry I denied him. He told me that since he’s received all rites of initiation I shouldn’t have denied him. The head of campus ministry has told us time and time again we are not to deny or judge.

Would she understand my situation?
Was I in the wrong?
Are there any documents or something in the GIRM I can use?

Thanks.

If anyone says anything to you, respond by telling them the exact situation, if they still insist you give Holy Communion to someone there to mock the Eucharist or to a public sinner, say, “If this is going to be a problem, I will need to address the situation with the bishop directly.” And that is all you need to say. If you are told to step down, do so with pride that you defended the Eucharist and did not partake in their sin.

 

[Marauder]

The OPsaid he knew the person and that he was an atheist PRIOR to the person coming up to receive. Asking “aren’t you an atheist” is not judging. Its getting confirmation of what he already knew. If you know somebody is an atheist then they must be refused Communion.
This is different from knowing the person is a Catholic and even that he was in a state of mortal sin (lets say the person told him prior to entering the Church for Mass). In such a case the EMHC cannot deny the person Communion.
But a known atheist?? Give us a break. You cannot distribute to a known atheist!!

You are asking an EMHC to make a judgement on whether a person is able to receive. That is not their job. That is soley the job of the priest, pastor and/or bishop. The person involved is a 16/17 year old kid. The EMHC does not know if the kid is doing this just to get a rise out of him. The kid could be “playing” atheist at school (or just in front of the EMHC), but confessing to the priest that he is really a bully or something like that. The priest is the only person that is supposed to be making the judgement. EMHCs are not supposed to be asking qualification questions. They are only supposed to be saying “Body of Christ” or “Blood of Christ”. If there is any doubt they should send them to the priest. You are placing more of a role on the EMHC then they have. They are ONLY to be distributing communion at the discretion of the priest. If the priest says the person is supposed to receive then they receive. As I said before, the EMHC should bring this up with the priest and either go with what the priest says, resign, or bring it to the higher authority.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

You are asking an EMHC to make a judgement on whether a person is able to receive. That is not their job. That is soley the job of the priest, pastor and/or bishop. The person involved is a 16/17 year old kid. The EMHC does not know if the kid is doing this just to get a rise out of him. The kid could be “playing” atheist at school (or just in front of the EMHC), but confessing to the priest that he is really a bully or something like that. The priest is the only person that is supposed to be making the judgement. EMHCs are not supposed to be asking qualification questions. They are only supposed to be saying “Body of Christ” or “Blood of Christ”. If there is any doubt they should send them to the priest. You are placing more of a role on the EMHC then they have. They are ONLY to be distributing communion at the discretion of the priest. If the priest says the person is supposed to receive then they receive. As I said before, the EMHC should bring this up with the priest and either go with what the priest says, resign, or bring it to the higher authority.

Silliness. Even if he just wants to get a rise out of the EMHC, the EMHC was right not to give Communion.

If I were in the EMHC’s position, I would not judge hearts. But I am not blind. I would not give Communion to: infants (unless they are Eastern rite and my pastor supported giving to them), people who are wearing pornographic shirts, people who come to receive and are basically naked, people who admit to me IN THE COMMUNION LINE that they don’t believe, people who admit their intention to pocket the Host, etc. These are super-rare but obvious reason to deny.

If someone asked you for the Host and said, “yeah, I’m going to trample on it or feed it to my dog” … you would give it to them? Really?

to the OP: be firm and loving. Tell them you didn’t want to deny him based on what you thought, so you asked him. And you were afraid, after he answered, to give him the Host because you didn’t want HIM to sin further (St. Paul wrote about how dangerous it is to receive unworthily) and you also didn’t want to aid in sacrilege. You didn’t give because you love him God and your neighbor as well.

 

[Marauder]

Silliness. Even if he just wants to get a rise out of the EMHC, the EMHC was right not to give Communion.

If I were in the EMHC’s position, I would not judge hearts. But I am not blind. I would not give Communion to: infants (unless they are Eastern rite and my pastor supported giving to them), people who are wearing pornographic shirts, people who come to receive and are basically naked, people who admit to me IN THE COMMUNION LINE that they don’t believe, people who admit their intention to pocket the Host, etc. These are super-rare but obvious reason to deny.

And those are the exact reasons why an EMHC is not supposed to judge the people. You are not supposed to be judging. If you have a problem with giving communion to someone you should refer them to the priest’s line. You are not supposed to be judging whether someone is wearing appropriate clothes. What next, are you only going to give communion to guys in suits or women in fancy dresses? You do not have the right to decide who does and doesn’t receive. Only the priest does. If you disagree with the priest you have to resign or take it up with a higher authority. What next are we going to have EMHCs asking, “Aren’t you participating in an affair?”, “Didn’t you vote for Obama in the last election?”. Within the Mass the EMHC has two options, either give the person communion or send them to the priest’s line and they need to be real sure before doing the second option.

As for whether someone will take the Eucharist and run, that is why many churches have ushers watching whether someone actually consumes the host. Beyond that, it is on the soul of the person receiving whether they should be receiving or not, not the EMHC.

Yes an EMHC can use a little judgement like when a very young person presents themself for communion. In that case the EMHC can look at the parent behind them or quietly ask “Have you received first communion?”, but even if the kid looks young and says yes then you have to give it to them. Honestly most of the people on this forum sound like people that haven’t had the training for EMHCs. But asking “Aren’t you an atheist?” isn’t appropriate in a communion line for an EMHC, but even if he did he should then talk things over with the priest afterwards and find out what the priest wants him to do in the future.

 

[DebChris]

When I first became an EMCH, there was a commissioning service for those of us who completed training. Our names were sent to the bishop. Yes, we were told not to judge the person who stepped forward to receive communion.
In my last parish, the updated training went further with an emphasis on protecting the Eucharist. We were not to put the host in a pix that a person brought with him, presumably to bring to the homebound. If we were the minister of the cup during Mass, we were not to allow the person to walk past us with the host still in his hand. We were to lovingly ask the person to consume the host. If the person insisted on continuing, then we would signal the ushers to help us. The Precious Blood was likewise to be protected. I have never faced these situations. Nevertheless they were addressed.
Another priest, in a parish where I often attended Mass, came from NY and related how desecration of the Eucharist was a felony there. He had actually followed a person who attempted to leave the church with the purpose of desecrating the host. As Catholics, each of us is part of the priesthood, not just the ordained. Each of us, EMCH and those not involved in this ministry, are called to protect that which we consider the source and summit of our faith.

 

[DebChris]

This may be considered off topic, but because this thread is as much about protecting the Eucharist as denying Communion, the thought crossed my mind about a story I heard from Fulton Sheen.
On one of his TV shows, the bishop shared why he daily spent an hour in Eucharistic Adoration. I don’t remember whether or not he was a prisoner, but the story takes place in Communist Korea.
The Communist soldiers had desecrated the tabernacle. The consecrated hosts lay strewn about the floor. Every morning, a twelve year old girl came and licked a host off the floor (at the time the only way Catholics received the Eucharist was by tongue). The day she consumed the last host, there was a noise. She was caught and martyred on the spot.

 

[Marauder]

If we were the minister of the cup during Mass, we were not to allow the person to walk past us with the host still in his hand. We were to lovingly ask the person to consume the host. If the person insisted on continuing, then we would signal the ushers to help us. The Precious Blood was likewise to be protected. I have never faced these situations.

As an usher at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception I have had to deal with these issues with the Body of Christ (stealing the Precious Blood would be much more difficult and a felony everywhere since it would involve the stealing of the chalice.)

I would say most of the time a person taking the body without consuming is usually either someone that isn’t Catholic that got in line anyway and doesn’t know what to do or someone that didn’t know they can’t take the Host home with them for some reason (i.e. souvenier or for someone sick.) Due to the Church being a pilgramage and siteseeing location we see all types. Most of the time, the situation is solved by either telling the person to consume the host or the person giving the host back. On rare occasions the security guards have to be called. I would say I have had to stop people at least 3-5 times a year.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

And those are the exact reasons why an EMHC is not supposed to judge the people. You are not supposed to be judging. If you have a problem with giving communion to someone you should refer them to the priest’s line. You are not supposed to be judging whether someone is wearing appropriate clothes. What next, are you only going to give communion to guys in suits or women in fancy dresses? … What next are we going to have EMHCs asking, “Aren’t you participating in an affair?”, “Didn’t you vote for Obama in the last election?”.

Extreme examples do not nullify legitimate ones. Of course I would not deny just because someone was not wearing a suit (and it’s not fair of you to insinuate I might), but if they were naked? If they were plastered? We don’t judge hearts, but we can certainly judge situations. the OP never said he wanted to justify asking personal questions for no reason, but sometimes it is necessary. Eg is someone is in public manifest sin. If Obama himself came to me for Communion (hypothetical as I am not an EMHC), I would deny him. To be completely open and fair, I would ask him, “Mr. President, did you become Catholic?” When he surely would respond “no,” I would have to politely deny Him.

I’m not opposed to referring to the priest’s line … in such cases I would deny, and maybe a reasonable thing would be do refer the person to the priest’s line right afterward.

I think the key point lost is the EMHC are people with consciences … they can follow rules and avoid imposing their personal opinions … but we can’t ask them to do something they know is clearly and flatly wrong.

Also, the person’s answer to the original poster’s question (“yes, I am an atheist”) proves the OP’s question was legitimate. If he had replied, “what do you mean, I’m Catholic!” then the OP may have reason to question why he asked.

 

[DebChris]

As an usher at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception I have had to deal with these issues with the Body of Christ (stealing the Precious Blood would be much more difficult and a felony everywhere since it would involve the stealing of the chalice.)

I would say most of the time a person taking the body without consuming is usually either someone that isn’t Catholic that got in line anyway and doesn’t know what to do or someone that didn’t know they can’t take the Host home with them for some reason (i.e. souvenier or for someone sick.) Due to the Church being a pilgramage and siteseeing location we see all types. Most of the time, the situation is solved by either telling the person to consume the host or the person giving the host back. On rare occasions the security guards have to be called. I would say I have had to stop people at least 3-5 times a year.

Thanks Marauder. I agree that more often than not we face issues of ignorance rather than intent (contempt). I am currently overseas. Powerpoint prayers and responses are projected on the wall. The frame during Communion specifically states “Communion is for Catholics only.”
As mentioned earlier, the only two times I have not given Communion to somebody was based on how they approached the altar. I asked the simple question, “Are you Catholic?” I have never faced the situations mentioned on news broadcasts when gay activists in direct disobedience to the Holy See regarding “living in sin” approach the altar in an effort to make a political statement. Since these protests are planned in advance, I am sure that the celebrant would likewise instruct EMCHs in advance how to lovingly refuse the Sacrament. I have not had anybody who publicly supports abortion approach me to receive Communion.
Many people do not know the proper procedure if you do need to take the Eucharist home for a loved one who may be sick. The pix should be brought to the sacristry before Mass so that it may be placed on the altar. It can be picked up directly after Mass and taken without delay to the person who is homebound.

The OP knew the person approaching the altar and the views he espoused. She also mentioned that she is new to this ministry and asked the question based on knowledge, not judgment. Yes, she could have asked the question slightly differently. Nevertheless, she made the right choice. His response showed contempt for the Eucharist. Her next step is to talk to her pastor and discuss the discomfort she felt when making this decision. Even if she had chosen to “not ask,” she would have been uncomfortable giving him communion. She would still want to talk to her pastor about the situation and how to deal with similar situations in the future.

 

[Marauder]

I have never faced the situations mentioned on news broadcasts when gay activists in direct disobedience to the Holy See regarding “living in sin” approach the altar in an effort to make a political statement. Since these protests are planned in advance, I am sure that the celebrant would likewise instruct EMCHs in advance how to lovingly refuse the Sacrament. I have not had anybody who publicly supports abortion approach me to receive Communion.

These people usually sit in the sections that make the most impact (i.e. up front where they will have to deal with the primary celebrant.) So it is usually not an issue for a lay EMHC. Also at the National Shrine they tend to go to “big” Masses where most of the people distributing communion are priests, but someone (either the Rector or the Bishop) usually will tell ALL the people distributing communion what to do.

Many people do not know the proper procedure if you do need to take the Eucharist home for a loved one who may be sick. The pix should be brought to the sacristry before Mass so that it may be placed on the altar. It can be picked up directly after Mass and taken without delay to the person who is homebound.

Actually the procedures on how EMHCs for the Ministry of the Sick varies parish to parish, diocese to diocese. There is no set way on how the EMHC gets communion for the sick. The only way to find out is through proper training at the parish level where the EMHC gets that information or talking directly to the pastor or priest that deals with the Ministry of the Sick.

 

[DebChris]

These people usually sit in the sections that make the most impact (i.e. up front where they will have to deal with the primary celebrant.) So it is usually not an issue for a lay EMHC. Also at the National Shrine they tend to go to “big” Masses where most of the people distributing communion are priests, but someone (either the Rector or the Bishop) usually will tell ALL the people distributing communion what to do.
Exactly.

Actually the procedures on how EMHCs for the Ministry of the Sick varies parish to parish, diocese to diocese. There is no set way on how the EMHC gets communion for the sick. The only way to find out is through proper training at the parish level where the EMHC gets that information or talking directly to the pastor or priest that deals with the Ministry of the Sick.

At the first parish where I was EMCH, parishioners did have their pix in hand and we placed the host in the pix for homebound family members.
In my current stateside home parish, we were explicitly told not to put the host in the pix. During the last annual training session, handling the Eucharist for the homebound was covered. Emphasis was placed on expediency.

While I have spent years as both an EMCH and lector, I am not an EMCH at my overseas parish. Both lectors and EMCHs attend monthly training sessions. Attendance at First Friday Holy Hour is mandatory. Lectors are also expected to attend parish Catholic Enrichment classes.