deny communion

[Iowa_Mike]

This is not a thred to debate extraordinary ministers of the eucharist. Stay on topic.

I was a eucharistic minister today at a school mass. While I was distributing a guy I know came up to receive. He is a strong athiest and mocks religion. I asked him there “aren’t you an atheist?” “Yes I am. Give it to me it tastes good,” he said.

So I denied him.

He told head of campus ministry I denied him. He told me that since he’s received all rites of initiation I shouldn’t have denied him. The head of campus ministry has told us time and time again we are not to deny or judge.

Would she understand my situation?
Was I in the wrong?
Are there any documents or something in the GIRM I can use?

Thanks.

You done good! EM’s are obliged not to give communion to public manifest sinners.

Iowa Mike

 

[dconklin]

You done good! EM’s are obliged not to give communion to public manifest sinners.

Iowa Mike

The only problem I have is the chance the “Atheist” is just a troubled kid looking for attention. He may be in full communion with the Church but is just acting out to get a rise out of people. Someone that is a Catholic would know what buttons to push. How can you determine a strong atheist? I remember their being loads of guys at lunch that would tell fanciful or horrific stories just to seem cool.

Praying for everyone,

 

[DebChris]

The only problem I have is the chance the “Atheist” is just a troubled kid looking for attention. He may be in full communion with the Church but is just acting out to get a rise out of people. Someone that is a Catholic would know what buttons to push. How can you determine a strong atheist? I remember their being loads of guys at lunch that would tell fanciful or horrific stories just to seem cool.

Praying for everyone,

The communion line is not the place to “get a rise out of people.”
Troubled kids know what type of behavior is appropriate; or they need help learning what is and is not acceptable.
If the pastor is informed, something can be done to help him if he is indeed “troubled.”
The OP took the person at his word. “I do not believe.” If the person does not believe, then his saying “Amen (that is so)” becomes a lie. He either is lying about his disbelief (that he is an Atheist), or he is lying if he receives.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

The only problem I have is the chance the “Atheist” is just a troubled kid looking for attention. He may be in full communion with the Church but is just acting out to get a rise out of people. Someone that is a Catholic would know what buttons to push. How can you determine a strong atheist? I remember their being loads of guys at lunch that would tell fanciful or horrific stories just to seem cool.

Praying for everyone,

With all due respect an EM cannot be expected to divine someone’s motives. Onlookers would be scandalized if they heard someone claim to be an atheist then be given Communion don’t you think? The EM did the right thing.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The only problem I have is the chance the “Atheist” is just a troubled kid looking for attention. He may be in full communion with the Church but is just acting out to get a rise out of people. Someone that is a Catholic would know what buttons to push. How can you determine a strong atheist? I remember their being loads of guys at lunch that would tell fanciful or horrific stories just to seem cool.

Praying for everyone,

I am sorry, but even if the kid was makeing a joke with the person he should not have been able to recive at that time. Even if he has strong belief in God and all that the Church teaches at that moment he was not in the proper frame of mind to receive.

I praise the perosn for haveing the strenght to ask this of someone they know to make claims that are contary to church teaching. I pray that if I ever find myself in a similar postion that God grants my the same.

If only we more priest and bishops that would do the same to all the people that make public claims against the chruch, but then go to receive the eucharist, Just maybe we would see a difference in those people stance.

To the OP go talk to the priest he I take it that this happened in the chaple of a Cathoilic High School. If so the priest can go meet with this person.

 

[japhy]

The problem is the OP first said “aren’t you an atheist?” This is where the judging from the OP came in. Technically all an EMHC is supposed to say is “Blood of Christ” or “Body of Christ” to a person presenting themselves for communion…

If the person felt uncomfortable about this due to prior knowledge they should have referred the person to the priest’s line.

You can’t have it both ways. If you say “technically all the EMHC is supposed to say is ‘The Body of Christ’”, you can’t then say that the EMHC should have directed the person to go to the priest’s line, because, technically, all the EMHC is supposed to say is “The Body of Christ.”

My point here is that the EMHC knew something about the recipient that is a de facto obstacle to him receiving Holy Communion. It was completely sensible for the EMHC to refuse him Holy Communion. It would have been inviting a sacrilegious Communion to have simply sent him to the priest’s line where he could receive with impunity.

 

[Marauder]

You can’t have it both ways. If you say “technically all the EMHC is supposed to say is ‘The Body of Christ’”, you can’t then say that the EMHC should have directed the person to go to the priest’s line, because, technically, all the EMHC is supposed to say is “The Body of Christ.”

My point here is that the EMHC knew something about the recipient that is a de facto obstacle to him receiving Holy Communion. It was completely sensible for the EMHC to refuse him Holy Communion. It would have been inviting a sacrilegious Communion to have simply sent him to the priest’s line where he could receive with impunity.

I think you are missing something. It is not appropriate for a EMHC to be quizing, testing, etc. the people in line with them. If is one thing to say, “Please go to the priest’s line” if you know something about the person. It is another thing to say “Are you an atheist?”, “Didn’t you vote for Obama?”, “Didn’t you sleep with so and so last night?” It is not the role of the EMHC to test people. It is one thing to ask a kid that is obviously too young whether they have received first communion, it is another to test whether someone is worthy to receive. The EMHC is distributing communion at the discretion of the priest. The EMHC can make a decision when the situation occurs the first time, after the first time they should consult the priest/pastor and do whatever the pastor says, resign from the position, or bring it up with the higher authority.

It is solely upon the soul of the person receiving to invalidly receive communion. It isn’t sacrilege for someone to receive communion unworthly. If there is an issue with the person taking the host and doing something with that, that should be dealt with by Ushers or other people. EMHCs dealing with that is not the best thing because it can cause more issues. There have been cases where someone runs after someone who didn’t consume and the person then either pushes the patten out of the person’s hand, steals more or other things like that.

In the end the proper course is after the event happened, no matter what the EMHC needs to bring it to the priest’s attention and let him deal with it and either abide by the priest’s decision, resign or bring it up with a higher authority.

 

[Cristiano]

I think you are missing something. It is not appropriate for a EMHC to be quizing, testing, etc. the people in line with them. If is one thing to say, “Please go to the priest’s line” if you know something about the person. It is another thing to say “Are you an atheist?”, “Didn’t you vote for Obama?”, “Didn’t you sleep with so and so last night?” It is not the role of the EMHC to test people. It is one thing to ask a kid that is obviously too young whether they have received first communion, it is another to test whether someone is worthy to receive. The EMHC is distributing communion at the discretion of the priest. The EMHC can make a decision when the situation occurs the first time, after the first time they should consult the priest/pastor and do whatever the pastor says, resign from the position, or bring it up with the higher authority.

It is solely upon the soul of the person receiving to invalidly receive communion. It isn’t sacrilege for someone to receive communion unworthly. If there is an issue with the person taking the host and doing something with that, that should be dealt with by Ushers or other people. EMHCs dealing with that is not the best thing because it can cause more issues. There have been cases where someone runs after someone who didn’t consume and the person then either pushes the patten out of the person’s hand, steals more or other things like that.

In the end the proper course is after the event happened, no matter what the EMHC needs to bring it to the priest’s attention and let him deal with it and either abide by the priest’s decision, resign or bring it up with a higher authority.

1- An EMHC can ask people if he is instructed by the pastor to do so. I have been instructed to ask people if they are Catholics if I have a reasonable doubt, and I have to deny communion if they are not. That it is only question that I have been instructed to ask.

2- EMHCs are the primary individuals responsible that the Host is treated with reverence and they have to act on it if it is not. Ushers like every other Catholic have an obligation to protect the Host too. This is not just about manners, this is about our Lord and Saviour.

3- Contrary to what you say receiving communion it is a sacrilege when the recipient knows that he is not allowed by the Church law. St. Paul made that clear.

 

[Marauder]

1- An EMHC can ask people if he is instructed by the pastor to do so. I have been instructed to ask people if they are Catholics if I have a reasonable doubt, and I have to deny communion if they are not. That it is only question that I have been instructed to ask.

And that is what your priest said to do, so you do it. “Are you a Catholic?” is a much different question then, “Are you an atheist?” Like I have been saying, after the first time the OP is supposed to talk it over with his priest and do what the priest says. It isn’t the EMHCs job to be asking these qualfication questions.

2- EMHCs are the primary individuals responsible that the Host is treated with reverence and they have to act on it if it is not. Ushers like every other Catholic have an obligation to protect the Host too. This is not just about manners, this is about our Lord and Saviour.

As I mentioned before the EMHC isn’t the best person for dealing with this. If you are an EMHC you should well know that there are many different ways people receive and traditions they have after receiving and before putting the Host in their mouth. It is unreasonable to think that an EMHC can watch the entire time the person is putting it in their mouth. As I also said having an EMHC chase a person down isn’t the best thing either due to danger of more things happening.

3- Contrary to what you say receiving communion it is a sacrilege when the recipient knows that he is not allowed by the Church law. St. Paul made that clear.

It is an issue between that person and God, not the EMHC and God. The type of sacrilege is different then the type where someone takes a host and does something to it. Otherwise you get into situation with everyone in line that isn’t worthy. An EMHC is not supposed to be judging whether someone is worthy to receive. The only people that should be doing this are the ordained clergy and the person themselves. You are putting more onto your position then it entails if you are doing that.

There is a huge difference between asking someone that has no idea of what they are doing “Are you Catholic?” or a young kid “Have you received first communon?” And asking someone questions like “Aren’t you an atheist?”, “Didn’t you do x, y, or z last night?”, etc. Where does it end? The role of the priest is to teach people that they shouldn’t be receiving unworthy, and in cases where a person continues, their job is to deal with it or tell the EMHCs to stop giving to this person etc. It is not the role of the EMHC to take this job upon themselves.

 

[Cristiano]

And that is what your priest said to do, so you do it. “Are you a Catholic?” is a much different question then, “Are you an atheist?” Like I have been saying, after the first time the OP is supposed to talk it over with his priest and do what the priest says. It isn’t the EMHCs job to be asking these qualfication questions…

I was not disagreeing with you at all. I was simply stating that an EMHC is directed to specific behaviors by the Bishop through the pastor. Those behaviors are a requirement while free-lancing is not acceptable.

In the case of point #2 that it is your own opinion and it is quite different from my pastor’s opinion and instructions.

 

[Marauder]

In the case of point #2 that it is your own opinion and it is quite different from my pastor’s opinion and instructions.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Saying “Are you a Catholic?” is fine, especially if your pastor said to ask that question. When I said “It isn’t the EMHCs job to be asking these qualfication questions.” I specifically meant asking questions beyond “Are you a Catholic?” and to a young kid “Have you received first communion?” I think that is what you mean by going freelance. Asking different beyond the “simple” questions because you know the person is going freelance. If there is doubt about whether someone should receive they should be referred to the priest.

The main thing I have been saying all along is that the EMHCs should not be taking it upon themselves to be asking any questions beyond those authorized by the pastor. To do so is doing something that should be reserved for the ordained clergy and even doing things that people complain about all the time on here, doing things that isn’t written in the guidelines.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Saying “Are you a Catholic?” is fine, especially if your pastor said to ask that question. When I said “It isn’t the EMHCs job to be asking these qualfication questions.” I specifically meant asking questions beyond “Are you a Catholic?” and to a young kid “Have you received first communion?” I think that is what you mean by going freelance. Asking different beyond the “simple” questions because you know the person is going freelance. If there is doubt about whether someone should receive they should be referred to the priest.

The main thing I have been saying all along is that the EMHCs should not be taking it upon themselves to be asking any questions beyond those authorized by the pastor. To do so is doing something that should be reserved for the ordained clergy and even doing things that people complain about all the time on here, doing things that isn’t written in the guidelines.

I have a question here? You keep saying that if in doubt to send them to the line of the priest. Now in this case that the OP stated if they had done that would the priest have known that the person was an atheist? and how should the EMHC have let their concerns about a person recieveing be known to the Priest at the time it is happening?

Just saying I’m sorry you need to go to that line does nothing to correct the matter. We know that from scripture a person that recived and is not worthy to brings illness upon themself. Are not only to Protect the Host, but should we knowingly allow someone to do themself harm?

 

[Marauder]

I have a question here? You keep saying that if in doubt to send them to the line of the priest. Now in this case that the OP stated if they had done that would the priest have known that the person was an atheist? and how should the EMHC have let their concerns about a person recieveing be known to the Priest at the time it is happening?

Based on both the OP original post and subsequent posts you can tell that this is a school/campus Mass. It sounds like a small group. It even sounds like the priest knew about this particular person. And the kid is a known troublemaker. No the EMHC is not supposed to do something like pass the person onto the priest and then go whisper in the priest’s ear. But the ultimite decision on whether at that Mass someone should be denied the Eucharist is the priest not an EMHC. In this case the person is someone the EMHC had history with and didn’t feel comfortable with. He should pass him onto the priest (unless the priest instructs him differently.)

There are lots of cases where you can see this happening. Say you are at an EMHC at a Mass and it is unknown that Rainbow sash members are going to show up. One of them presents themself in your line. What do you do? You know that some Bishops deny Rainbow sash members communion and some don’t. Do you as an EMHC have the right to deny someone in a Rainbow sash the Eucharist? Not really. Would you feel comfortable giving them the Eucharist? Probably not The best situation would be to pass the person on to the priest’s line.

An EMHC is assisting the priest in handing out communion. The priest is the person ultimately responsible. The priest with any directions from the Bishop should be deciding if a Rainbox sash member, public Abortion supporter, etc. should be receiving, not an EMHC (unless told previously by either the priest or Bishop.)

Should EMHCs be denying communion based on personal knowledge. No because where does it end. As someone earlier in the thread pointed out, if that person was an EMHC they would deny communion based on what people are wearing. EMHCs are not supposed to be judging those people that are in their line, if anyone is it should be the priest.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Based on both the OP original post and subsequent posts you can tell that this is a school/campus Mass. It sounds like a small group. It even sounds like the priest knew about this particular person. And the kid is a known troublemaker. No the EMHC is not supposed to do something like pass the person onto the priest and then go whisper in the priest’s ear. But the ultimite decision on whether at that Mass someone should be denied the Eucharist is the priest not an EMHC. In this case the person is someone the EMHC had history with and didn’t feel comfortable with. He should pass him onto the priest (unless the priest instructs him differently.)

There are lots of cases where you can see this happening. Say you are at an EMHC at a Mass and it is unknown that Rainbow sash members are going to show up. One of them presents themself in your line. What do you do? You know that some Bishops deny Rainbow sash members communion and some don’t. Do you as an EMHC have the right to deny someone in a Rainbow sash the Eucharist? Not really. Would you feel comfortable giving them the Eucharist? Probably not The best situation would be to pass the person on to the priest’s line.

An EMHC is assisting the priest in handing out communion. The priest is the person ultimately responsible. The priest with any directions from the Bishop should be deciding if a Rainbox sash member, public Abortion supporter, etc. should be receiving, not an EMHC (unless told previously by either the priest or Bishop.)

Should EMHCs be denying communion based on personal knowledge. No because where does it end. As someone earlier in the thread pointed out, if that person was an EMHC they would deny communion based on what people are wearing. EMHCs are not supposed to be judging those people that are in their line, if anyone is it should be the priest.

You are making the presumption that the priest knows that this has been making statments that he is an atheist/ Also on the size of the School. I do not know about in your area but in mine there a a few very large Catholic High Schools. so the priest may not and probbly does not know ever student.

I also think that if a person has made public their stance on issue that place them outside the chruch untill they publicly recant they should not recieve.

As far *** dening because of dress. to even place that in the argument is ridiculous.

 

[Marauder]

As far *** dening because of dress. to even place that in the argument is ridiculous.

It sounds like you are commenting on a thread where you have only read maybe the beginning and the end of the thread. Look through the previous posts in this thread you will find someone that said they would deny people based on how they are dressed. That shows you the extremes people would go through if EMHCs are allowed to decide who should and shouldn’t receive. The ultimate decision is up to the priest and the person receiving, not the EMHC.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

It sounds like you are commenting on a thread where you have only read maybe the beginning and the end of the thread. Look through the previous posts in this thread you will find someone that said they would deny people based on how they are dressed. That shows you the extremes people would go through if EMHCs are allowed to decide who should and shouldn’t receive. The ultimate decision is up to the priest and the person receiving, not the EMHC.

i have read the whole tread and that was meant for the person that said it orginnially as well.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

You are making the presumption that the priest knows that this has been making statments that he is an atheist/ Also on the size of the School. I do not know about in your area but in mine there a a few very large Catholic High Schools. so the priest may not and probbly does not know ever student.

I also think that if a person has made public their stance on issue that place them outside the chruch untill they publicly recant they should not recieve.

As far *** dening because of dress. to even place that in the argument is ridiculous.

Hey…no so fast. I think it perfectly appropriate to deny someone communion if they are dressed in manner that is contrary to Catholic doctrine or to convey/mock the Church. Do you remember when the Archbishop of San Francisco George Niederauer gave communion to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. There was an outcry condeming him for doing so. In case you don’t know who the Sister of Perpetual Indulgence are… they are a bunch of gay men who cross-dress as nuns wearing outrageous face make-up and mock the Catholic Church. They took Communion in full drag in order to mock the Church. The Archbishop had to be in a coma to give them the Host. Any self respecting EM, priest, bishop etc. would deny them. How about the Archbishop of St. Paul, Minnesota who recently denied communion to a bunch of students who were wearing ‘Gay Pride’ buttons? These students are high profile supporters of the gay/lesbian life style, homosexual marriage etc.

There are many, many obvious reasons manifest sinners should be denied communion and it has nothing what-so-ever to do with making judgements. If someone is a publically professed athiest…no communion. If someone is proudly and publicly living a lifestyle condemned by the Church…no communion. If someone publicly opposes Church teachings on abortion, etc. etc…no communion. If someone approches Communion wearing shirts, buttons, sashes et al that oppose Catholic dogma…no Communion.

Catholic go to mass to receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. EM’s and other ministers have a huge responsibility to safeguard the host from sacrilege not to pass it out like a ‘cookie’.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Marauder]

If someone publicly opposes Church teachings on abortion, etc. etc…no communion.

Interesting that considering the Bishops can’t even come to a concensus on this you think an EMHC should judge a person based on the same thing. I guess we can call you Bishop Iowa Mike. You are showing a perfect example of why an EMHC is not supposed to be making the choice.

Like I said it is up to the priest (baring something coming directly from the Bishop) to make the final call, not an EMHC. The EMHC serves to assist the priest, not the other way around.

 

[joe370]

This is not a thred to debate extraordinary ministers of the eucharist. Stay on topic.

I was a eucharistic minister today at a school mass. While I was distributing a guy I know came up to receive. He is a strong athiest and mocks religion. I asked him there “aren’t you an atheist?” “Yes I am. Give it to me it tastes good,” he said.

So I denied him.

He told head of campus ministry I denied him. He told me that since he’s received all rites of initiation I shouldn’t have denied him. The head of campus ministry has told us time and time again we are not to deny or judge.

Would she understand my situation?
Was I in the wrong?
Are there any documents or something in the GIRM I can use?

Thanks.

How did he receive all rites of initiation, if he admitted to being an atheist? Did he lie? Obviously you would defer to the leaders of the CC. Clearly you were in the right:

*For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. *

 

[Ashurie]

My University Priest has always told me that Communion will never be denied…he can not deny someone Communion. And he told me that after my first Mass with him, I knew I couldn’t take it…as I stayed in the pew he approached me and blessed me instead.