Denying service for gay marriage compared to

[JamalChristophr]

How would you respond to this?

You state: It’s acceptable to deny service to a gay marriage on the basis that your beliefs are that same-sex marriages are immoral, and participating in one by offering a service is immoral. Forcing someone to provide a service for a gay wedding against their religious beliefs is wrong.

• They state: Then you must agree that a person can deny an interracial couple service for their wedding because they believe it’s immoral to support an interracial marriage.

I’m not at all convinced that the former statement is a tenable position. If people want a cake, then back them their cake… There’s nothing intrinsically evil about baking a cake for people far as I know. Besides that, it seems a legal precedent has been established. In that sense, it is not acceptable to deny service.

To bake a cake for someone does not mean that you agree with gay marriage. And I don’t think the Bishops have said anything about this sort of thing nor do I think it can unequivocally be established that this is the only course in light of Catholic moral theology.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I’m not at all convinced that the former statement is a tenabsle position. If people want a cake, then back them their cake… There’s nothing intrinsically evil about baking a cake for people far as I know. Besides that, it seems a legal precedent has been established. In that sense, it is not acceptable to deny service.

How about abortion?What if a women walks into a bakery requesting a cake ,celebrating her abortion?Should the baker who is vehemently opposed to abortion be forced to bake such a cake?

 

[unstoppable_II]

… If people want a cake, then back [sic] them their cake. …

This is essentially the same question over employers objecting to paying for birth control/abortion services as part of employee health insurance packages. Where do you draw the line? Is it between cakes for gays and birth control/abortion? Or somewhere else?

 

[JamalChristophr]

This is essentially the same question over employers objecting to paying for birth control/abortion services as part of employee health insurance packages. Where do you draw the line? Is it between cakes for gays and birth control/abortion? Or somewhere else?

I think you are mistaken there, birth control and abortion are intrinsically evil actions that Catholics would be forced to directly support financially. Baking a cake is baking a cake for people. It does not say explicitly that a baker supports or condones gay marriage, though some might argue that it implies it.

 

[Dr.Bonnette]

Then that someone else would not be my person of choice.

You don’t have the right to marry any person you want to against her will.

Like any other contract, this is an agreement requiring mutual consent.

Your “right to marry” simply is a natural right to enter into such a contract. That assumes that you can find a willing partner who fulfills the other terms of the natural contract.

 

[wcknight]

What about a same sex couple wanting to rent a Catholic facility ? or another Christian facility that does not recognize such unions ? and what if they wanted their ‘wedding’ at such a facility… then what if a satanic group decides it wants to do the same…

 

[unstoppable_II]

You don’t have the right to marry any person you want to against her will.

Like any other contract, this is an agreement requiring mutual consent.

Your “right to marry” simply is a natural right to enter into such a contract. That assumes that you can find a willing partner who fulfills the other terms of the natural contract.

I don’t think it is a right for another reason: government cannot guarantee it.

 

[grannymh]

This is essentially the same question over employers objecting to paying for birth control/abortion services as part of employee health insurance packages. Where do you draw the line? Is it between cakes for gays and birth control/abortion? Or somewhere else?

The line is according to the cake baker’s religious convictions as to what promotes and approves and encourages an established moral evil according to the baker’s Christian Faith. Homosexual wedding cakes are a physical approval of an immoral act which, by the way, does not contribute to our future as a growing nation nor does it provide a sustaining nation.

 

[captainrick]

My response would be - “Yes you are quite right.”

In my view, at it’s core, we are talking about the freedom of a business owner to choose which contracts to enter into. The particular reasons are less important.
If the couple wish me to respect their desire to get married…It is fair and reasonable that they respect my desire not to participate.

Of course there are many subtleties that can crop up in these things and one could easily find oneself in a contract that they would not have entered had they known…then the only think to do is to execute the contract precisely and move on.

That said, I would agree that there are areas where the nature of the business or profession where one cannot make such choices. Things that relate to health and safety for example.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

^ this is my answer also - Although I would not personally discriminate against an interracial couple (Like my wife and me!), I do not believe that government should interfere with how a business owner runs their business.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I’m no expert on anything, but are we talking about personal convictions or civil law here? Or both?

When you speak of “rights”, what do you mean exactly?

 

[Jeanne_S]

I’m no expert on anything, but are we talking about personal convictions or civil law here? Or both?

When you speak of “rights”, what do you mean exactly?

Not sure whom you were addressing your question.I will answer it based in my former question to you.Re a women wanting to celebrate her abortion with a cake inscripted cited as saying such.Or how about PP wanting a huge sheet cake for their employees?Is this a matter of the baker bring forced to go against his/her personal moral convictions? Why should said baker be forced by law to go against his own moral compass ?Where are the bakers’ rights?

 

[unstoppable_II]

… I do not believe that government should interfere with how a business owner runs their business.

The public accommodation law was passed to address the problem of blacks not being served at lunch counters [and other places] in the South during the '60s. In all fairness, this was a noble goal, but like other attempts to right wrongs, “Laws, people must learn, particularly laws stated in sweeping terms, are dangerous things.”

– Law Professor Lino A. Graglia

 

[unstoppable_II]

…Where are the bakers’ rights?

You have no rights until you’ve committed a crime. Think about it.

 

[Jeanne_S]

What this really boils down to is a fringe group of homosexuals,imposing their immoral/disordered lifestyle on the majority of society.These Christian establishments are purposely being targeted,for just this reason.Jack Phillips referred the homosexual couple to an equally good bakery right across the street.This bakery would have had no problem accommodating them.So ,there you go.No tolerance from the homosexual community re the religious rights of business owners.Nope it is their way or the highway.

 

[JamalChristophr]

What this really boils down to is a fringe group of homosexuals,imposing their immoral/disordered lifestyle on the majority of society.These Christian establishments are purposely being targeted,for just this reason.Jack Phillips referred the homosexual couple to an equally good bakery right across the street.This bakery would have had no problem accommodating them.So ,there you go.No tolerance from the homosexual community re the religious rights of business owners.Nope it is their way or the highway.

Maybe people will not appreciate me going off-topic here to some degree, but what do you all propose to do about it? Stand up for what you believe and face legal action against you, stop baking wedding cakes all-together, something else? Because I don’t think people have the legal right to refuse service to a certain group of people. I’m just wondering. If no one answers, I’ll take that as a hint and be quiet.

 

[Dr.Bonnette]

Everyone talks about rights, but not one in a hundred can define what it means.

Progressives tend to identify rights with wants, e.g., I want a certain standard of living – therefore, I have a right to it. Since I have a right to it, it is government’s obligation to provide me with it. (Meaning: you pay for it in taxes, so I can have it.)

In moral philosophy, a right is the moral power to fulfill an obligation. For example, I have the God-given obligation to live, since God gave me life so that I may attain my last end: the Beatific Vision. Since I am obliged to live, I am not morally free to commit suicide, nor is it licit for anyone else to kill me. (I prescind here from discussion of capital punishment.)

Parents bring children into this world, and so, they have an obligation to provide for them and to see to their education. Therefore, parents have a natural right as the primary overseers of the raising of their children – not the “village.”

 

[Jeanne_S]

Maybe people will not appreciate me going off-topic here to some degree, but what do you all propose to do about it? Stand up for what you believe and face legal action against you, stop baking wedding cakes all-together, something else? Because I don’t think people have the legal right to refuse service to a certain group of people. I’m just wondering. If no one answers, I’ll take that as a hint and be quiet.

What I am saying is there has to be a balance.Unlike race,homosexuality is a choice,at least in so much as one decides to act on their desires.If there are businesses willing to accommodate SS couples,why do they find it necessary to force their lifestyle on those who are morally opposed? Why should these businesses be forced to close down because they choose to stand by their faith rather than capitulate to the whims of the latest politically correct agenda? I actually heard a spokesperson for a homosexual rights group.basically say that unless Jack Phillips and other of the same mindset,are willing to accommodate any and all,then they shouldn’t be in business in the first place!Really!Are we now living in a fascist country? That this is even proposed to begin with should scare everyone .

 

[unstoppable_II]

… what do you all propose to do about it? …

Well, now that is the $64,000 question. As I noted earlier, Nazi Brown-shirts blocked entrances to Jewish businesses in the late 1930s Germany. The government encouragement led to the Kristallnacht. When the news reported that the pizza parlor customers were being harassed by the pro-homosexual demonstrators, I concluded that, if government doesn’t nip it in the bud, we are seeing a repeat of Kristallnacht, only this time it is Christians.

---

“What started as a demand for basic civil rights has mutated into a demand to overturn the whole society, along with its traditions and norms, its standards and laws, its history and heroes.” – Lawrence Auster

 

[JamalChristophr]

What I am saying is there has to be a balance.Unlike race,homosexuality is a choice,at least in so much as one decides to act on their desires.If there are businesses willing to accommodate SS couples,why do they find it necessary to force their lifestyle on those who are morally opposed? Why should these businesses be forced to close down because they choose to stand by their faith rather than capitulate to the whims of the latest politically correct agenda? I actually heard a spokesperson for a homosexual rights group.basically say that unless Jack Phillips and other of the same mindset,are willing to accommodate any and all,then they shouldn’t be in business in the first place!Really!Are we now living in a fascist country? That this is even proposed to begin with should scare everyone .

I essentially agree with you, but I guess I’m not as concerned with the “whys” as to the “what” and “how’s”. If it’s possible, Christians who are against need to get as well organized as the opposing side and be able to lobby for corrective legislation and finally be able to back absolute top notch lawyers to defend in these cases when there is at least some prospect of winning and perhaps even when there is not.

Or perhaps the days will simply come for Christians as they did to the Early Christians in Rome during times of Nero and like-minded leaders. This has happened fairly often in the last 2000 years. Not so much hear in the U.S. but in a big way in other nations.

 

[Pat_M]

The church is against discrimination of any type.

If you gave a robber the keys to a bank you would be helping them to sin against a commandment. This can be compared to gay marriage.it has nothing to do with discrimination, or lack of love.

I would ask tthe person comparing this to interracial marrrige to point to the commandment that states interracial marriage is a sin.

GOOD ANSWER !