At which point the civil authorities would probably throw it back at the Church, saying it is an internal squabble over which they have no authority.Well, perhaps someone could sue it for false advertising???
As one of the 10 people who do understand binary, maybe.Well, perhaps someone could sue it for false advertising???
OutinChgoburbs;2893315 And please remember in your prayers two little schools in Illinois said:Name names, already.
You have no proof of this. It’s not like bad events have never been canceled. If he did it and the university went on with the event anyway then the Catholic name should be stripped from them to prevent any further scandal.What you don’t seem to get is that he can make all the demands he wants to… but it’s going to happen, anyway.
Obviously this is not his only recourse as shown by Bishop McManus.The only thing he is left with, therefore, is to appeal to the general populous (who ultimately are greater in number and influence than he alone) as to these concens, making us all aware of the scandal and outrage which is it, while instructing on what would be a positive alternative. Which is precisely what he does.
Why, oh why wouldn’t it be more prudent to tell people why it’s wrong and make sure to the best of his ability it doesn’t happen. BTW, Alumni don’t get too happy when their Catholic Alma Matre is threatened to be stripped of it’s Catholic name.Is it better, then, to stir the pot and thump yoru chest while things just get worse as a result or to try to take practical, positive steps to better things while retaining something of an upbuilding relationship to future progress?
For heaven’s sakes, it’s not the 10 Suggestions. It’s the 10 Commandments. It’s not Canon Suggestions. It’s Canon Law. Are either of these not loving? Do you have children? When they need to be corrected do you simply reason with them or do you take action and then explain it to them? The hierarchy of this university are allowing souls to be lead astray. You don’t say “It would be nice if you actually taught them Catholic teachings but, hey, if you don’t, oh well.”It is a matter of building a relationship with people to get them to do the “right” thing, because they carefully consider it in conscience, rather than trying to make demands employing “authority” over them which they will then angrily rebel against, offending you, anyway, and growing further away from the rightful relationship that you are ultimately trying to draw them into.
When you kid is doing something harmful to themselves you don’t tell them that they might want to reconsider. You tell them to stop and give them the reason for the command.Which is what he has presently done by his public questioning; reinforcing the potential good and offering clear direction as to what that is, while warning of the dangers and condemning them.
That’s not true. We’ve had many such events cancelled in our diocese.Such events are rarely, if ever, cancelled… even after a bishop appeals to them to do so. History suggests that attempting such a strong armed approach, therefore, will only backfire. It is reasonable to conclude that other approaches are better in the long run.
If the bishop says he’s going to do it and they go through with it anyway, you can bet they can revoke the “Catholic” name.And the name “Catholic” is not going to be easily revoked in formality from such an institution for this one infraction.
Uh, even the local media coverage has said he’s threatening their Catholic status. I’m not sure how you see it differently.Even the bishop you cite doesn’t threaten that, ultimately, but only hints at the underlying realities (just as does Cardinal George.)
Sorry but Canon Law says differently and, again, you are saying that relations must be cut simply because he acts on Church teaching.The real goal of a bishop is to draw them into a greater depth or the faith rather than to cut them off.
I, of course, disagree. Showing the severity of parting from Catholic teaching is necessary…Such a thing occurring is, therefore, rare, and not likely without much more serious and extensive problems, including absolute impasses in dialogue concerning overall institutional direction. Even if it were publically threatened and decreed, the backlash (especially at such a major university in a major city) would create greater problems for all involved than the original problem.
This is quite possible but at least there is no scandal.And, certainly, the institution would find some way to maintain the identity which they desire and remain in business, even without the formal “Catholic” designation, if that did happen. Ultimately, the bishop can say all he wants about what they can and can not call themselves, but he can’t stop them from doing anything that they desire to do.
Since I don’t believe it has ever been done, I am not sure how it could be done. If Catholic is part of the legal name, he has no jurisdiction over it in law; that is a civil law matter. If there is some Canon that governs this, then he might have somewhere to stand, but I am not familiar enough with Canon law to know where that comes in.
Actually, if you look at the canons, the bishop or cardinal in this case can remove the staff if need be.
Further, you and I may agree that this is deplorable; but I suspect that if there is a Canon law section that could control, it would probably take more than this to invoke it. Look at how long it took for the Mandatum rule to come out, and look at how it has been applied: many bishops will not release any information about whether or not a specific professor has the Mandatum or not.
Afraid to get in trouble with the mods. I will PM them to you, though.Name names, already.
Can. 810 §1. The authority competent according to the statutes has the duty to make provision so that teachers are appointed in Catholic universities who besides their scientific and pedagogical qualifications are outstanding in integrity of doctrine and probity of life and that they are removed from their function when they lack these requirements; the manner of proceeding defined in the statutes is to be observed.
§2. The conferences of bishops and diocesan bishops concerned have the duty and right of being watchful so that the principles of Catholic doctrine are observed faithfully in these same universities.
I would argue that he has done what he effectively can in this regard with his public statement (and likely some phone calls to the university authorities preceeding.)Why, oh why wouldn’t it be more prudent to tell people why it’s wrong and make sure to the best of his ability it doesn’t happen.
Remember that a lot of those alumni, especially the ones with big bucks, are the kind of CINOs who you would rail against and often are the cause for the kind of problems which you are now protesting, as they return to be honored.BTW, Alumni don’t get too happy when their Catholic Alma Matre is threatened to be stripped of it’s Catholic name.
Firstly, the cardinal is saying something much stronger than, “Pretty please, but ok… oh well if you don’t.” He isn’t pulling a David Stern with basketball referrees kind of thing. He is clear and unambiguous in his stance.For heaven’s sakes, it’s not the 10 Suggestions. It’s the 10 Commandments. It’s not Canon Suggestions. It’s Canon Law. Are either of these not loving? Do you have children? When they need to be corrected do you simply reason with them or do you take action and then explain it to them? The hierarchy of this university are allowing souls to be lead astray. You don’t say “It would be nice if you actually taught them Catholic teachings but, hey, if you don’t, oh well.”
When your “kid” is a 45 year old university professor with prestige and making darn good money, it goes in one ear and out the other. Really, we are not dealing with children, here, but adult Catholics all around. If we don’t take an approach which respects this, nothing good will come of it.When you kid is doing something harmful to themselves you don’t tell them that they might want to reconsider. You tell them to stop and give them the reason for the command.
Well, provide us with examples aplenty, then. I think it is more often the case in these high profile situations that they typically continue despite all the noise and fury of protest. And such is certainly what could be expected in this instance. Perhaps a failure to recognize this along with your own positive experiences there is what clouds your perception of what is realistically expectable in a context like this. Again, one has to consider the context of the situation.That’s not true. We’ve had many such events cancelled in our diocese.
If the bishop says he’s going to do it and they go through with it anyway, you can bet they can revoke the “Catholic” name.]/quote]
So what happenned with that example of Bishop McMannus?
Remember, we are dealing with the largest Catholic University in the U.S. here, not some small Catholic college, either. They have resources aplenty to fight back if you go that route.
When he follows through, let me know. It seems more of a rhetorical comment to me.Uh, even the local media coverage has said he’s threatening their Catholic status. I’m not sure how you see it differently.
I disagree. Canon Law gives him legal authority, but how he exercizes it is a matter of prudence in service of Christian unity and salvation, which is the proper role of the bishop.Sorry but Canon Law says differently and, again, you are saying that relations must be cut simply because he acts on Church teaching.
Just as one is not excommunicated for every little infraction, the overall context of things must be considered in such cases. An individual act may be dead wrong and inappropriate, but that alone doesn’t necessarily negate the overall character of an institution.I, of course, disagree. Showing the severity of parting from Catholic teaching is necessary…
The scandal, certainly, remains nonetheless as it is objective. It is just reinforced as people are pushed even further away from the faith rather than gently appealed to for movement towards reunification and growth.This is quite possible but at least there is no scandal.
I can figure out who they are. I’d like everyone else to know. It does no good to mention them abstractly when no one can do anything about it, specificially.Afraid to get in trouble with the mods. I will PM them to you, though.
Thanks for the info and research. This is good to know.According to this article, 4 Catholic universities have been stripped of their Catholic identity since Pope John Paul IIs Ex Corde in 1990.
archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/4/29/130730.shtml