Deprivation from Tradition

[YoungApologist3]

Thank you for your response, Brother.

The chant is a remnant of the chant of the psalms and scriptures in the Temple and synagogues of the 1st century Jews.

I was not aware of that. That’s interesting.

So too, has contemporary and cultural music always been a part of the Church’s worship. […]

I was under the impression that the only instrument allowed at Mass in the pre-counciliar Church was the organ. I haven’t been able to find what you are talking about regarding Trent. (Though I have not spent much time looking, to be honest.) Could you direct me regarding what documents I should look for? I’m not totally against modern music, so long as it is suitable for Mass, as was said at the Second Vatican Council. I find that most instruments can be suitable for Mass, but many (viz. guitars) are not in practice used suitably. Would you not say that music which mainly gets its appeal by appealing to the appetitive (in the Thomistic sense of the word) is not appropriate for the Mass? Is that not disordered (again, in the Thomistic sense of the word)?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

as the Catholic tradition is alive in every Catholic parish regardless of the form of the Mass prayed, music played or otherwise.

Right. To me the “Catholic tradition” is that we continue to believe in all the stuff mentioned in the Profession of Faith, we go to Mass every Sunday, we pray every day, we go to confession regularly, etc.
It’s not some special kind of music.

 

[YoungApologist3]

Instead of you complaining about young people being “deprived”, why not invite your friends or other young people you know to accompany you to one of these Masses with chant that you attend, or start a group to go regularly so other people can check it out?

The difficulty is that the closest of these Masses is over an hour away, and closer to two hours where many of my Catholic friends reside. I am not able to attend such Masses regularly; they are simply the “ideal Mass” in my preferences. Where I do attend Mass (and where many of my friends attend), we have traditional music accompanied by the organ, along with the occasional chant, so they are not deprived of our Catholic tradition as I once was.

To me the “Catholic tradition” is that we continue to believe in all the stuff mentioned in the Profession of Faith, we go to Mass every Sunday, we pray every day, we go to confession regularly, etc.
It’s not some special kind of music.

Our Catholic tradition is everything that we do as Catholics, which has been handed down for generation after generation. It is our birthright as Catholics. Music, the Sacraments, adoration, prayers, and everything else we do are all part of the Catholic tradition.

At the very least, I would think that someone who advocates for contemporary music in Mass would also respect the right of a person with more traditional tastes to experience traditional music in the Mass, since—for the person that advocates for contemporary music—it is all about keeping people in the Church by appealing to their tastes. It logically follows that if it is all about appealing to people’s tastes, then we ought to appeal to everyone’s tastes, including the tastes of people with a traditional disposition when it comes to music. I, however, disagree that the Mass is about that. The Mass is only secondarily about drawing people in the Church; its primary purpose is to worship God. (But that’s a separate discussion.)

(By the way, I’m not implying that you personally are being logically inconsistent. I have seen it a lot here on the CAF, and in real life, though.)

 

[CRM_Brother]

While the only instrument explicitly mentioned in the decrees of Trent is the Organ, it is actually in a slightly negative context. Session XXII, The Decree Concerning the Things to be Observed, and to be Avoided, in the Celebration of the Mass states,

They shall also banish from churches all those kinds of music, in which, whether by the organ, or in the singing, there is mixed up any thing lascivious or impure; as also all secular actions; vain and therefore profane conversations, all walking about, noise, and clamour, that so the house of God may be seen to be, and may be called, truly a house of prayer.

This Decree specifically allows Organ and singing, but only in the context of sacred spiritual music. It was geared specifically towards the Avignon polyphony in curbing the remnants of musical excess and non-sacred abuses which were remnants of the Avignon liturgy which still lingered 150 years after the healing of the Western Schism. Nowhere are other instruments mentioned and it was left to the individual Bishops to regulate what was licit musically within the Liturgy. I know for a fact that there are records of musical instruments other than the Organ within my own Order which was founded only about 26 years after the conclusion of the Council of Trent. At the time, this was in Spain and Italy, and later in India, (what is now) Vietnam, and China. Native instruments were introduced in Masses in missionary areas as an avenue for evangelization. This only stopped within our Order’s missions due to the debacle with the Oriental Missionary Rites during the 18th and 19th centuries, but continued within our European houses off and on with respect to the various Bishops’ decisions on the subject until Vatican II. One record even has a full brass and woodwind band playing for the funeral of a well-known Italian gentleman in Rome in the mid 1800s. The mass was celebrated by the Vicar General for the Diocese of Rome, so I assume it had approval.

 

[LilyM]

Sorry, but I am familiar with the hymn set to ‘Jupiter’ that you speak of, and find it worth listening to precisely because it too appeals to the emotions.

Music - all music - is designed to appeal to the emotions. That is why it is an.art along with painting and drama and not a science alomg with physics and economics.

If music does not appeal to the emotions it is a meaningless cacophony and we’d be better off in silence or reciting the lyrics without musical accompaniment.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Our Catholic tradition is everything that we do as Catholics, which has been handed down for generation after generation.

All this stuff you mention has not been “handed down for generation after generation”. I’m quite sure that my forebears living in log cabins in Ontario after they had to emigrate from Ireland due to their religion did not get to hear Gregorian chant every Sunday. They were probably just glad to have a Mass celebrated with whatever poor music they could manage, or none at all. I am also quite sure that the several generations between them and me were not exposed to the world’s greatest Catholic music in the towns where they lived.

If you like the music, fine, but you’re seeing a big generational tradition that just isn’t there in USA for many of us.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Hello Young apologist,
Thank God you are considering entering the seminary! The Church needs priests like you! I don’t know if you know about CMAA - Church Music Association of America? https://musicasacra.com/
They have many wonderful resources to learn from, and yes, a forum where people can gather a discuss these things. Once you are a priest you can nudge the music in a positive direction (once you are charge, that is)! The fact is that some bishops place more emphasis on quality music than others.
I think you are right on the nose - - Catholics are deprived of their heritage of quality sacred music when all we get is contemporary pop-style hymns.
Also, not sure how much you know about the EF,and the FSSP? Here’s a really nice 5-minute feature story about their seminary:
Gregorian chants are a hit at this Nebraska seminary | PBS NewsHour