Desecration of a holy book

[Fitz]

Since this is really the crux of the problem in the news I was wondering what everyone thought of the desecration of the book. I don’t think it should have been done if all the claims over the past 3 years are right.

One wrong is not corrected by another. The fact that these people were able to stone a woman that they claimed had an affair even if she were raped is not an excuse. The fact that insurgents behead people they want to do harm to, does not excuse desecration of a book. The fact that religious guidlines dictate that women are supposed to be hidden under a Burka so that they might not be an occasion of sin for men does not fogive a book being desecrated.

Pardon me, but I am having trouble. I know it was wrong if it did happen. What about the rape of our prisoners during the first Gulf War? What about it?

OK, so they take the book desecration as a symbol of disrespect for all that they are. I also take 9-11 as a disrespect for all the we are. It was an attack on our way of life. It was not just an attack on America, but all of Western thought.

 

[walstan]

Mt 5:39-48

 

[Thekla]

I don’t believe that it was an attack on Western thought or Christianity. And I don’t believe they “hate us for our freedoms.” I actually agree with Patrick Buchanan who often says, “they are here because we are there.”

I don’t find it hard to believe that someone could have treated the Koran with great disrespect. We have people in this country who advocated attacking Iraq and forcibly converting them to Christianity. Our president accidentally referred to this as a “crusade.” We are already in a Holy War but we just haven’t realized it.

 

[Fitz]

Thekla:

I don’t believe that it was an attack on Western thought or Christianity. And I don’t believe they “hate us for our freedoms.” I actually agree with Patrick Buchanan who often says, “they are here because we are there.”

We did not go there until they attacked us. I am speaking of Afghanistan. What are you referring to? 9-11 was an attack on us, right? Just checking your thinking process. I am not sure where you are coming from. We allow Muslims freedom to practice in our country. I don’t think we went to Iraq to convert them to Chrisitanity. They already had some Christians that were not treated so great. Many were presecuted there, not in the name of Allah, but in the name of Saddam.

 

[gilliam]

Thekla:

I don’t believe that it was an attack on Western thought or Christianity. And I don’t believe they “hate us for our freedoms.” I actually agree with Patrick Buchanan who often says, “they are here because we are there.”

You need to think this through.

The WE that al-Quada considers ‘we’ are:

• all allies to the West (including the current governments of Egypt and the Arab states except Syria and Iran).
• Israel
• now Iraq and Afghanistan

And if you want us out, that means we allow the Caliphate to come back into power, which eventually will want a return to power in Spain, Turkey and Eastern Europe.

 

[Fitz]

This is a thread on the same topic. I did not know it was going when I started this one.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=664785#post664785

 

[Thekla]

“there” being the Middle East. We were not attacked by Afghanis, but by Saudis.

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity.” - Ann Coulter

Remember all the evangelicals who were prepared to go into Iraq after the invasion? I’ll look it up but I heard one preacher say they had as many as 40,000 Christians ready to go to Iraq. This kind of nonsense was glossed over in the run up to the war, but it’s the kind of stuff that’s easily made into the premise for a Holy War.

Afghani clerics have given the US three days to produce the interrogators for punishment. If they don’t get them they say they will call for a Holy War. As I said, it’s all one and the same - we just haven’t figured it out yet.

 

[gilliam]

“there” being the Middle East. We were not attacked by Afghanis, but by Saudis.

Those Saudis joined an organization based in Afghanistan, protected by the government of Afghanistan, and trained in Afghanistan.

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity.” - Ann Coulter

I disagree with her, so does the US Government

 

[gnjsdad]

gilliam:

I disagree with her, so does the US Government

The U.S. government needs to convert to Christianity first.

 

[Lisa_N]

“there” being the Middle East. We were not attacked by Afghanis, but by Saudis…

The Taliban and its leaders/financiers were in Afghanistan.

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity.” - Ann Coulter.

Ann Coulter is a satirist. Do you think she meant this literally? You have taken one line out of context.

Thekla:

Remember all the evangelicals who were prepared to go into Iraq after the invasion? I’ll look it up but I heard one preacher say they had as many as 40,000 Christians ready to go to Iraq. This kind of nonsense was glossed over in the run up to the war, but it’s the kind of stuff that’s easily made into the premise for a Holy War…

This kind of nonsense shouldn’t be repeated without some kind of valid sourcing. Please provide it. I never heard such a ridiculous thing.

Thekla:

Afghani clerics have given the US three days to produce the interrogators for punishment. If they don’t get them they say they will call for a Holy War. As I said, it’s all one and the same - we just haven’t figured it out yet.

I’d be for sending the Newsweek staff instead.

Lisa N

 

[gnjsdad]

Fitz:

They already had some Christians that were not treated so great. Many were presecuted there, not in the name of Allah, but in the name of Saddam.

You are just plain wrong here. Saddam pretty much left the Christians in Iraq alone. In fact, his number one spokesman, Tariq Aziz, was a Christian. His regime was a powerful check on Islamic fundamentalism in Iraq. Thanks to the U.S. invasion, this has changed and Christians are facing persecution thanks to the growing influence of militant Islam in Iraq.

 

[gilliam]

gnjsdad:

You are just plain wrong here. Saddam pretty much left the Christians in Iraq alone. In fact, his number one spokesman, Tariq Aziz, was a Christian. His regime was a powerful check on Islamic fundamentalism in Iraq. Thanks to the U.S. invasion, this has changed and Christians are facing persecution thanks to the growing influence of militant Islam in Iraq.

Tariq Aziz was a murderer.

Iraqi bishop on Saddam’s capture: “Head of the serpent has been crushed”

Rome, December 15, 2003 (CNA) - In an interview given to the Catholic missionary Agency “Asia News,” Iraqi Bishop Rabban al Qas expressed his hope for significant improvement in political and religious freedom after the capture of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

The 54 year-old bishop of Kurdish origin, who is at the hospital waiting to be operated, saw the news of Saddam’s capture while watching Arab and Italian TV news.

“The serpent’s head has been finally crushed,” he told Asia News. “Now we can peacefully rebuild our country” with the help of a military presence he defines as “liberating” and not “occupational”.

“I can say that his arrest is a moment of joy for all Iraqis. As well as for us bishops. Ours fears are finally over. All the weight we bore on our shoulders for all those who died and for (the fear of) murderers.”

“In the months following Iraq’s liberation, there was the suspicion that there were still spies around, that Saddam would reappear. Now there is no longer any fear. Now the serpent’s head has been finally crushed and his regime is finally over,” he said.

According to the Catholic bishop, “Saddam has met his end, and for us in Iraq, (this means) the reconstruction period can now truly begin. If there is peace in Iraq’s future, freedom for all religions, then our country will be able to grow. She will be rich and her numerous cultures will live together in harmony. This explains why upon hearing the news of Saddam’s arrest, all of Baghdad and the entire country burst into joy and is now celebrating in the streets.”

Bishop Rabban also revealed to the Rome-based agency that he spoke with seminarians and bishops in Baghdad after Saddam’s capture. “Yesterday (Sunday,) they were all at the airport awaiting the new Patriarch’s arrival. And they were celebrating with other Iraqis. I would like to clarify one aspect of your question: Saddam’s capture and arrest does not mean one thing for the Church and another for Iraq citizens. Christians are not any different from the rest of the nation. Christ sent us to live within society. Under Saddam Hussein, the Church and Iraqi populace have suffered together. Under his dictatorial regime, we have all been persecuted: Christians, Shiites, Arabs, Kurds, and Syrian-Chaldeans alike. We are the Iraqi nation and it we Iraqis who have been oppressed.”

Finally, speaking about the US military presence in Iraq, the bishop said: “For us (their military presence) is liberating, not occupational. If they weren’t here, Iraqis would still be under (Saddam’s) yoke. But now thank God the nightmare is over.”

catholicnewsagency.com/showarchive.php?date=2003-12-15

 

[Thekla]

It was their idea to go to Iraq as missionaries, not mine.

Muslims wary of Christians bearing gifts of food and water

			By Matthew Engel in Washington

April 7 2003

	 		 		    It could only happen with an American invasion. Poised behind the troops, waiting for a signal that Iraq is safe enough for them to operate, are the evangelical Christians - carrying food in one hand and the Bible in the other.

The groups, funded by American churchgoers, are likely to do a magnificent job in offering water, food, medical help and comfort to a traumatised population. But they are causing alarm among Muslims, who fear vulnerable Iraqis will be cajoled into conversion. Some warn that the missionaries will be prime targets in an unpacified Iraq.

Muslim worries have been heightened because the man leading the charge into Iraq is the Reverend Franklin Graham, the man who delivered the invocation at President George Bush’s inauguration, the son of Billy Graham, and a fierce critic of Islam. He is on record as calling it a “wicked, violent” religion, with a God different from that of Christianity. “The two are different as lightness and darkness,” he wrote.

Mr Graham runs an organisation called Samaritan’s Purse, whose workers are in Jordan, waiting to move into Iraq. It has a strong record of charitable help built up over more than 30 years, but its official aim is clear: “The organisation serves the church worldwide to promote the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

In the Los Angeles Times last week, Mr Graham insisted that Samaritan’s Purse will offer help to Iraqis without religious strings attached. “Sometimes the best preaching we can do is simply being there with a cup of cold water, exhibiting Christ’s spirit of serving others,” he said.

Ibrahim Hooper, of the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations is unimpressed, saying the groups involved are “despicable and deceitful”, adding of Mr Graham: "This guy has repeatedly stated that Islam is intentionally cruel. I fail to see how such a person can be a positive influence in a Muslim country.

“Humanitarian relief is just a cover. Their basic motivation is conversion.”

Also moving into Iraq are the Southern Baptists, the strongest pro-Bush, pro-Iraq War and pro-Israel political force in the US.

Some Christian commentators are alarmed that missionaries blundering into an unstable country of which they know littlewould be in danger. ThreeBaptist missionaries wereshot and killed in Yemenlast December by a Muslim extremist, who said he did it because “they were preaching Christianity in a Muslim country”.

As for Coulter being a satirist, was she being funny when she said that soldiers in Iraq were “getting their hair mussed?” She’s a real riot.

 

[gnjsdad]

gilliam:

Tariq Aziz was a murderer.

Iraqi bishop on Saddam’s capture: “Head of the serpent has been crushed”

Rome, December 15, 2003 (CNA) - In an interview given to the Catholic missionary Agency “Asia News,” Iraqi Bishop Rabban al Qas expressed his hope for significant improvement in political and religious freedom after the capture of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

The 54 year-old bishop of Kurdish origin, who is at the hospital waiting to be operated, saw the news of Saddam’s capture while watching Arab and Italian TV news.

“The serpent’s head has been finally crushed,” he told Asia News. “Now we can peacefully rebuild our country” with the help of a military presence he defines as “liberating” and not “occupational”.

“I can say that his arrest is a moment of joy for all Iraqis. As well as for us bishops. Ours fears are finally over. All the weight we bore on our shoulders for all those who died and for (the fear of) murderers.”

“In the months following Iraq’s liberation, there was the suspicion that there were still spies around, that Saddam would reappear. Now there is no longer any fear. Now the serpent’s head has been finally crushed and his regime is finally over,” he said.

According to the Catholic bishop, “Saddam has met his end, and for us in Iraq, (this means) the reconstruction period can now truly begin. If there is peace in Iraq’s future, freedom for all religions, then our country will be able to grow. She will be rich and her numerous cultures will live together in harmony. This explains why upon hearing the news of Saddam’s arrest, all of Baghdad and the entire country burst into joy and is now celebrating in the streets.”

Bishop Rabban also revealed to the Rome-based agency that he spoke with seminarians and bishops in Baghdad after Saddam’s capture. “Yesterday (Sunday,) they were all at the airport awaiting the new Patriarch’s arrival. And they were celebrating with other Iraqis. I would like to clarify one aspect of your question: Saddam’s capture and arrest does not mean one thing for the Church and another for Iraq citizens. Christians are not any different from the rest of the nation. Christ sent us to live within society. Under Saddam Hussein, the Church and Iraqi populace have suffered together. Under his dictatorial regime, we have all been persecuted: Christians, Shiites, Arabs, Kurds, and Syrian-Chaldeans alike. We are the Iraqi nation and it we Iraqis who have been oppressed.”

Finally, speaking about the US military presence in Iraq, the bishop said: “For us (their military presence) is liberating, not occupational. If they weren’t here, Iraqis would still be under (Saddam’s) yoke. But now thank God the nightmare is over.”

catholicnewsagency.com/showarchive.php?date=2003-12-15

I never said Saddam’s Iraq was a haven for Christians; just that he more or less left them alone.

I understand the good Bishop’s reaction, since he’s a Kurd.

 

[gilliam]

gnjsdad:

I never said Saddam’s Iraq was a haven for Christians; just that he more or less left them alone.

I understand the good Bishop’s reaction, since he’s a Kurd.

Saddam was a murderer

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Found this article over on New Max:

**Monday, May 16, 2005 11:56 a.m. EDT **

Gen. Myers: Detainee Flushed Koran Pages

Newsweek magazine’s decision to apologize on Sunday for reporting last week that U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay had flushed a copy of the Koran down the toilet wasn’t the first hint that the story that has outraged Muslims worldwide may not be true.

On Thursday, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Richard Myers told reporters that the only evidence of any Koran desecration unearthed so far was a log notation describing a Muslim prisoner tossing pages from his holy book into the toilet.

Full Story

Looks like it may of been the prisoner not the guards who did the desecration. Of course, we will never see this in the MSM.

PF

 

[Fitz]

gnjsdad:

You are just plain wrong here. Saddam pretty much left the Christians in Iraq alone.

Leaving them alone? Do you suppose there were any Christians in the mass graves? I think that you have been listening to biased reporting. I have listened to Iraqi-American Christians from Detroit say quite a different story on a radio program. Saddam did not treat anyone fairly. He had his own son in laws murdered.

 

[Fitz]

gnjsdad:

I never said Saddam’s Iraq was a haven for Christians; just that he more or less left them alone.

I understand the good Bishop’s reaction, since he’s a Kurd.

Iraq was not a haven for anyone.