V
Vonsalza
Guest
QED
- Status
B
Bradski
Guest
[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
If you don’t repent then your fate is sealed. Even if God forgives the unrepentant, according to the catechism, it makes no difference. So unless you want to argue that God’s forgiveness is still not enough to save you, or the catechism is wrong, then it is apparent thT God does not forgive anyone who does not repent.
I’m sure you are still missing the point. If you don’t repent (and every scenario I have ever suggested assumes that), then you go to hell. Both repentance AND forgiveness are required.
If you don’t repent then your fate is sealed. Even if God forgives the unrepentant, according to the catechism, it makes no difference. So unless you want to argue that God’s forgiveness is still not enough to save you, or the catechism is wrong, then it is apparent thT God does not forgive anyone who does not repent.
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
A good thing for all of to remember, including yourself, even if you are absolutely certain there is no God … because you can’t really know now, can you?
. 
V
Vera_Ljuba
Guest
Oh, I can positively know that there are no four-sided triangles, or married bachelors, and many other logically contradictory “beings”.A good thing for all of to remember, including yourself, even if you are absolutely certain there is no God … because you can’t really know now, can you?
B
Bradski
Guest
I’m sure that when the time comes I’ll be asking forgiveness from all those I have wronged in my time.A good thing for all of to remember, including yourself, even if you are absolutely certain there is no God … because you can’t really know now, can you?
T
tonyrey
Guest
In that case you have nothing to fear after you die…
T
tonyrey
Guest
:clapping:
It is eminently reasonable to believe all of us are punished by our moral defects in direct proportion to the amount and degree of misery and suffering we inflict on others - both persons and animals. The Greek concept of Nemesis and the Indian doctrine of Karma both reflect that view. One of the fundamental flaws of atheism is its implication there is cosmic injustice and evil remains unpunished. Camus, for example, believed “la mort est le supreme abus”. (Death is the supreme abuse)…
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
And that possibly the only way to abuse death is by committing suicide, as the *Myth of Sisyphus *suggests.:clapping:
Camus, for example, believed “la mort est le supreme abus”. (Death is the supreme abuse)…
A
Aloysium
Guest
Nor would there be any benefit to doing good. Everything ending in oblivion makes the universe amoral. This moment, for all the joys and suffering that it may encompass, would be as it never happened. Self-sacrifice, giving of oneself would ultimately produce nothing of value. Any momentary happiness of the other or oneself, to what end?. . . One of the fundamental flaws of atheism is its implication there is cosmic injustice and evil remains unpunished. Camus, for example, believed “la mort est le supreme abus”. (Death is the supreme abuse)…
But here evil would flourish - death’s dominion. Do what you please and enjoy the moment. Take what you will, use others for your own purposes. Use death for personal gain. Every tyrant and butcher knows the score. But, there’s more to it than these lies. And, the truth will be known in the end, as those who used death must answer to it.
That truth is that this moment as all moments, exists in eternity, known as it is brought into existence from beyond time and space, right here, right now. There can be no oblivion for what is; rather a final settling of accounts in time for what one has done.
What can’t be changed can be forgiven. Most, and hopefully all of us will accept our guilt and shame and ask for forgiveness.
B
Bradski
Guest
Are you not reading what has been posted? Where has anyone suggested that evil remains unpunished?
The point that no-one wants to address is that the definition of evil and the punishment for it is abhorrent.
V
Vonsalza
Guest
I don’t think the point that “hell is bad” is something we’re disagreeing on.
I think there is some disparity between your idea of hell and that of many (if not most) Catholics. I think that you believe that the serial killer and the adulterer are chained right next to each other, experiencing identical suffering. I won’t defend that understanding of hell because I don’t think its true.
Another disparity between us is “who goes to hell” and how that is determined. I’ve stated repeatedly that the Catholic position is that non-believers like the atheist and Muslim have hope, as all are subject to God’s judgement of their life’s deeds as the final “say”. Yes, we are bound by the sacraments. God is not.
This is something you’ve zealously resisted with asinine, clearly prejudicial obstinance.
Your understanding of Catholic “soteriology” is simply incorrect. It is objectively, demonstrably incorrect. I simply do not know what else to tell ya.
T
tonyrey
Guest
T
tonyrey
Guest
Interesting point, Charlie, although I think Brad would disagree.Camus, for example, believed “la mort est le supreme abus”. (Death is the supreme abuse)…
B
Bradski
Guest
We can bring this to a close quite easily. If someone commits what the church defines as a mortal sin and does not repent, does that person go to hell? Any answer other than ‘yes’ puts you in direct conflict with the catechism irrespective of your personal view.
T
tonyrey
Guest
With the proviso that the real criminals do not repent and are not prepared to make amends.
T
tonyrey
Guest
With the proviso that the real criminals do not repent and are not prepared to make amends.
T
tonyrey
Guest
**1033 **We cannot be united with God unless we **freely **choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin **without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love **means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive **self-exclusion **from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
NB It would be unjust to compel those who reject the Creator’s love to go to heaven or annihilate them. God is not a Dictator or Destroyer! No one would choose hell unless it has its compensations. Absolute independence has its advantages as well as its drawbacks but eternal isolation and frustration are a formidable price to pay for having one’s own kingdom especially when it is shared with other egoists. In that sense Sartre was right when he observed “L’enfer, c’est les autres…”
V
Vonsalza
Guest
T
tonyrey
Guest
The fatal flaw in your objection to hell is that it is not inflicted by God:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive** self-exclusion** from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
Hell has its compensations; otherwise no one would opt for it! To have one’s own kingdom and absolute independence is a highly attractive temptation but it has its drawbacks because it entails isolation and frustration. Even in this world we see the consequences of the insatiable lust for power which inevitably ends in disaster and misery. Egoism and pride lead to a fool’s paradise which is short-lived…
B
Bradski
Guest
Which doesn’t answer my question. One has to ask why you are avoiding doing so.
- Status