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It answers it perfectly. It’s from the catechism and it’s directly contrary to your mistaken point.

Allow me to get out my spoon-

Man is bound to the sacraments. So if we die with grave sin in our lives that is unconfessed and unpaid as a matter of penance then yes. We have reason to be concerned.

However, God is not bound by these sacraments. Upon judgement, should the lord decide to save someone by non-sacramental means, He can. We see this quite clearly through the thief crucified next to Jesus. When did HE go to confession ?!?

Simply, Bradski, the catechism teaches there’s hope for everyone, whether you like it or not.

As stated earlier, continued denial of the point indicates lack of intellectual capacity or deliberate obstinance. I feel it’s obvious which describes the source of your objection.
 
Vonsalza said:
. . . God is not bound by these sacraments. Upon judgement, should the lord decide to save someone by non-sacramental means, He can. We see this quite clearly through the thief crucified next to Jesus. . .
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Well said. The way I would phrase it begins with the view that God’s judgement is the reality of our existence. God’s judgement is compassionate in that He knows everything about us, our circumstances and challenges. We are and act within His infinite loving gaze and guidance towards the Beatific Vision.

Through the incarnation, death and resurrection of the Son, humanity is redeemed and we are saved from hell. Although there are many approaches to the one Way that is Jesus Christ, the Church He established is the easiest, most effective.
 
Vonsalza said:
It answers it perfectly. It’s from the catechism and it’s directly contrary to your mistaken point.

Allow me to get out my spoon-

Man is bound to the sacraments. So if we die with grave sin in our lives that is unconfessed and unpaid as a matter of penance then yes. We have reason to be concerned.

However, God is not bound by these sacraments. Upon judgement, should the lord decide to save someone by non-sacramental means, He can. We see this quite clearly through the thief crucified next to Jesus. When did HE go to confession ?!?

Simply, Bradski, the catechism teaches there’s hope for everyone, whether you like it or not.

As stated earlier, continued denial of the point indicates lack of intellectual capacity or deliberate obstinance. I feel it’s obvious which describes the source of your objection.
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So there is a contradiction within the catechism. How do we reconcile this?
 
Bradski said:
So there is a contradiction within the catechism. How do we reconcile this?
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Only legalists like the Pharisees and Puritans believe rules and laws are more important than love and compassion… Of course even though our conscience is our ultimate authority we shouldn’t go to the other extreme and believe **we alone **decide what’s right and wrong. Otherwise one falls into the trap of egolatry, i.e. worshipping one’s own judgment.- which is a symptom of vanity and intellectual pride.
 
tonyrey said:
Only legalists like the Pharisees and Puritans believe rules and laws are more important than love and compassion… Of course even though our conscience is our ultimate authority we shouldn’t go to the other extreme and believe **we alone **decide what’s right and wrong. Otherwise one falls into the trap of egolatry, i.e. worshipping one’s own judgment.- which is a symptom of vanity and intellectual pride.
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Except we are not talking about rules.

Vonsalza insists that the catechism teaches that we can be saved from hell even if we do not repent. But the catechism clearly states that we need Gods forgiveness AND repentance. It is clearly stated that repentance is a requirement.

Maybe you can explain the contradiction.
 
Vonsalza said:
Upon judgement, should the lord decide to save someone by non-sacramental means, He can. We see this quite clearly through the thief crucified next to Jesus. When did HE go to confession ?!?
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I suppose the case could be made that the good thief received the baptism of desire, conferred by Christ himself, so that confession is not required because baptism forgives all sin. He certainly received his penance on the cross, which is indicated by Jesus promising immediate passage into his presence in Paradise that very day…
 
Bradski said:
Actually, wasn’t it you that said you some experience with programming?

Let “Go to heaven” = Bl.ISS
Let “Go to hell” = Ag.ONY
Let “Forgiveness” = F
Let “Repentance” = R

IF R AND F
THEN Bl.ISS

ELSE Ag.ONY

Both conditions may apply for the Nazi. In which case he might get lucky. The first condition does not apply to the father, so we skip to the ELSE.
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Better:

Choose hell
 
Bradski said:
Suicide is a conscious decision to end pain, not to start an eternity of it.
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Suicide is not rooted in pain. It is rooted in hopelessness, the favorite theme of atheists.

Consider the millions of suicides following drug abuse, alcoholism and abandonment.

These are conscious decisions not to end pain but to destroy the self.

Self disgust, self hatred, self despair.

All of these pains can be cured not by death, but by finding hope in God.

In his book Modern Man in Search of a Soul, the psychoanalyst Carl Jung wrote:

“During the past thirty years, people from all the civilized countries of the earth have consulted me. I have treated many hundreds of patients, the larger number being Protestants, a small number of Jews, and not more than five or six believing Catholics. Among all my patients in the second half of life – there has not been one whose problem in the last resort was not that of finding a religious outlook on life. It is safe to say that every one of them fell ill because he had lost that which the living religions of every age have given to their followers, and none of them has been really healed who did not regain his religious outlook.”

No one with a religious outlook looks to hell or nothingness for his salvation.
 
Bradski said:
Except we are not talking about rules.

Vonsalza insists that the catechism teaches that we can be saved from hell even if we do not repent. But the catechism clearly states that we need Gods forgiveness AND repentance. It is clearly stated that repentance is a requirement.

Maybe you can explain the contradiction.
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There is none. Just your obstinance on the issue that is bordering juvenile inanity.

We have to play by the rules. God does not.

It’s really that simple.

shrug
 
Ill concede that the non-christian that enters heaven will likely have been what we call “good”. Living a life that glorifies Gods virtues.

But will everyone in heaven have successfully completed confession/penance/last rights? Got all their "I"s dotted and "T"s crossed?

No. What a thoroughly dumb idea.
 
As a final consideration, theres been a liitle scope creep. You began with an unrepented mortal sin, now you seem to be alluding to the generally unrepentant.

A little “bait and switch” perhaps?
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Suicide is not rooted in pain. It is rooted in hopelessness, the favorite theme of atheists.

Consider the millions of suicides following drug abuse, alcoholism and abandonment.

These are conscious decisions not to end pain but to destroy the self.

Self disgust, self hatred, self despair.
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Despair, hopelessness, and self-loathing leading to suicidal thoughts are symptoms of major depression, a mental illness. Are you claiming that the mentally ill are sent to hell for eternal torture in the lake of fire? Just for being sick?

And if that’s not bad enough, some design fans claim everything is designed for the greater good. So their intelligent designer designed major depression to get people to commit suicide to send them to hell for the greater good.

Design fans wing it. Nothing is thought through. Not even a little bit.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
. . . Self disgust, self hatred, self despair. All of these pains can be cured not by death, but by finding hope in God. . .
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We are broken, disconnected from the truth, from the love that underlies creation, the love from which we come into existence and to which we would return.
Our brokenness is fertile ground for sin, which festering in that spiritual wound, gives rise to substance abuse, self-absorbance, hate, and ultimately despair.

It would be the broken self who is hated, injured as a relational being, in its connections with others and God.
This sense of ugliness as to who we are, is our reflection from interactions with others, contaminated by sin and thereby divorced from God.

We are designed to love; and in this world where sin and its wages, death so often seem to prevail, love is pain.

Ultimately what is hated and their cure are addressed in the beatitudes:
Matthew 5:1-12
Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to Him, and He began to teach them, saying:
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness,for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

What sin despises is love, and in doing so, also the truth.
1 Corinthians 13:4-13
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I think its pretty clear why we run from love, embracing sin; it hurts.
But, in Love we find our salvation; it is what we are meant to be.
 
Scanning a bit of the end here. Just to rehash repentance necessity. I was just talking about this with one of my kids yesterday.

We were analyzing if someone might be in heaven who did not repent. We concluded ‘no’ per the info available to us.

An act of repentance is a turning toward God.

Pride is what would exist in a person unwilling to do so.

There isn’t a human, save 2, who are not sinners.

By definition of salvation for sinners, repentance is necessary. Form and timing is as variable as each person.

Though form is variable because of life and how it unfolds differently per person, many teachings point to grace (forgiveness / absolution) gifts given through certain specific forms of repentance.

Those forms are practiced in the CC as sacraments.

If God provided the sacraments - People who know of the specific forms in the CC and reject them / do not turn toward God through their use, are not just - not repenting, but unfortunately filling with pride.

Need to be careful and honest with ourselves as God knows what each person knows.

Those who do not know of God’s ‘ordinary forms’ through the CC, may not have learned about people as ‘sinners’ thus have a higher probability of repenting at judgement, once informed.

For people on earth that know they are sinners, it should be a short walk to consider God works in our nature and has setup ordinary forms. It’s reasonable. God wouldn’t come and save sinners from their sins and not leave behind instruction. That’s the whole point of Pentecost. That the first teachers would recall all they have been taught and put it into practice. You don’t practice randomness, you practice specifics, given form(s).
 
inocente said:
Despair, hopelessness, and self-loathing leading to suicidal thoughts are symptoms of major depression, a mental illness. Are you claiming that the mentally ill are sent to hell for eternal torture in the lake of fire? Just for being sick?

And if that’s not bad enough, some design fans claim everything is designed for the greater good. **So their intelligent designer designed major depression **to get people to commit suicide to send them to hell for the greater good.

Design fans wing it. Nothing is thought through. Not even a little bit.
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Indeed, Jesus experienced his own major depression in the Garden of Gethsemane.

For that he did not die and go to hell for the greater good.

He had a better design. I thought Baptists knew that? :confused:
 
Charlemagne_III said:
inocente;14680037:
Despair, hopelessness, and self-loathing leading to suicidal thoughts are symptoms of major depression, a mental illness. Are you claiming that the mentally ill are sent to hell for eternal torture in the lake of fire? Just for being sick?

And if that’s not bad enough, some design fans claim everything is designed for the greater good. So their intelligent designer designed major depression
Click to expand...
to get people to commit suicide to send them to hell for the greater good.

Design fans wing it. Nothing is thought through. Not even a little bit.
Indeed, Jesus experienced his own major depression in the Garden of Gethsemane.

For that he did not die and go to hell for the greater good.

He had a better design. I thought Baptists knew that? :confused:
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And now you make light of the suffering of the mentally ill.

Still, as long as you feel good about yourself.
 
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