Design

[inocente]

I think extemporizing is great fun - jazz in print. It may sound a bit chaotic to the untrained ear, but there is beauty in the abstract creativity.

I disagree. This is a philosophy forum, and abject failures of logic are not just a question of taste. But even in terms of aesthetics, first thing you learn in an orchestra is if everyone plays whatever they like without reference to each other, it doesn’t just sound like chaos, it is chaos. The fact that each design fan of this thread is playing his own morality without reference to anyone else isn’t just chaotic to the untrained ear. All who have ears to hear know the Spirit is never chaotic, and no amount of training can make the Emperor’s new clothes beautiful. Intelligent design does moral chaos. That alone proves it is not of God.

 

[inocente]

Every wounded soul is given a chance by God to be healed. Some choose not to be healed. But some do. What would you say for those who do? That they also had no choice?

I take it that as a Baptist you do believe in free will, conversion, and redemption.

Am I wrong?

Are those who are wounded forever doomed without a choice in the matter?

I’ve given two examples of people who probably don’t have any choice - those who as children were traumatized, and the mentally ill suffering major depression. Another example is anyone undergoing torture. In each case the soul is robbed of free-will by terror, by sickness, by inhumanity.

I suggest that intelligent design fans have an over-fondness for teleology. They want everything to have a purpose, so they decide if it has a purpose it must be designed. But that’s a problem with bad stuff, so they have to ignore it, or argue that only the nice things are designed, or that bad stuff happens for a greater good. But all they’re doing, according to Thomas Aquinas, is confusing primary and secondary causes, which can only end in more confusion, like the strange idea which some posted earlier that God designed worms which burrow into eyes for the greater good. Hence the wildly improv’ed moralities on this thread.

I suggest that Christian morality isn’t found in teleology or complicated excuses, it’s found in virtue. And that virtue is founded on mercy. And God follows that same morality. Matt 25:31-46. Sometimes stuff just happens. We don’t chose it, it’s just how things are.

 

[inocente]

I think extemporizing is great fun.

btw, 1939, Coleman Hawking, Body and Soul (Spotify has a remaster). I think it’s in the Library of Congress for being the first recording of someone playing a tune without ever actually playing the tune. As the CCC says, “the soul the form of the body”.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I disagree. This is a philosophy forum, and abject failures of logic are not just a question of taste. But even in terms of aesthetics, first thing you learn in an orchestra is if everyone plays whatever they like without reference to each other, it doesn’t just sound like chaos, it is chaos.

Try telling that to all your Protestant friends who celebrate their contradictions of each other!

Again, more contradiction. The composer and the conductor are both teleologists!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

**I suggest that Christian morality isn’t found in teleology or complicated excuses, it’s found in virtue. **And that virtue is founded on mercy. And God follows that same morality. Matt 25:31-46. Sometimes stuff just happens. We don’t chose it, it’s just how things are.

This is the Pelagian heresy, a very old one indeed.

We do not get to assume that we are saved by our own virtues. We have no virtues but those God plans for us to exercise and gives us the grace to exercise. We do have freedom, even the freedom to arrogantly assume that our virtues are ours alone and God has nothing to do with their provision.

Very close to atheism, no?

I truly would like to know why you have such a profound hatred for teleology. It permeates almost all of your posts. Is it a Baptist thing, or just your thing?

 

[tonyrey]

Anyone would think Design is a cold, intellectual exercise in planning the universe instead of an expression of our Father’s infinite love for us. The precious gift of life seems to be taken for granted without being appreciated as the supreme blessing it really is. It was an atheist, Thomas Nagel, who pointed out life’s immense value consists in being a source of opportunities. What he didn’t mention is the absurdity of deriving immensely valuable and purposeful entities with a capacity for insight, self-control and spiritual development from fortuitous combinations of inanimate, purposeless atomic particles.:

Thanks. Charlie.

Another point that is missed is the value of evil! Suffering is often pointless and meaningless - and used as an argument against God’s Design. For a Christian that is sheer nonsense. Why did Jesus choose to be mocked, scourged and crucified? Was His agony, despair and desolation futile? Was He mentally unbalanced to let Himself be treated so cruelly and unjustly? That is what cynics and sceptics believe but they are wrong and misguided.

We are not isolated individuals but members of a family deeply affected by what happens to others. My pain and misery are yours if you have love and compassion. Otherwise you are inhuman. I am suffering and if you couldn’t care less it is your loss not mine. I hate the pain but my life is richer because I’m sharing the pain of others and above all with Christ who asked us to take up our cross and follow Him. Then our suffering is not wasted but transformed into liberation from ourselves.

The worst feature of atheism is the utter isolation of those who believe no one shares our inmost thoughts and feelings. It amounts to being condemned to solitary confinement for the rest of one’s life. Our feelings become insignificant and our pain is a curse which serves no useful purpose. That is why suicide and euthanasia are becoming more common in our secular society. For many people everything is ultimately absurd and meaningless without any hope of ever seeing their loved ones again…

There cannot be a greater contrast with the teaching of Jesus that the glory of God is seen in the beauty of nature and there is an answer to the problem of evil. He has demonstrated how it can be defeated by having trust in our heavenly Father, adopting a positive attitude to life and loving others even more than ourselves! He has transformed human society even though evil will always remain a challenge. That is why Pascal believed Jesus will be in agony until the end of the world…

 

[Aloysium]

Thanks. Charlie.

Another point that is missed is the value of evil! Suffering is often pointless and meaningless - and used as an argument against God’s Design. For a Christian that is sheer nonsense. Why did Jesus choose to be mocked, scourged and crucified? Was His agony, despair and desolation futile? Was He mentally unbalanced to let Himself be treated so cruelly and unjustly? That is what cynics and sceptics believe but they are wrong and misguided.

We are not isolated individuals but members of a family deeply affected by what happens to others. My pain and misery are yours if you have love and compassion. Otherwise you are inhuman. I am suffering and if you couldn’t care less it is your loss not mine. I hate the pain but my life is richer because I’m sharing the pain of others and above all with Christ who asked us to take up our cross and follow Him. Then our suffering is not wasted but transformed into liberation from ourselves.

The worst feature of atheism is the utter isolation of those who believe no one shares our inmost thoughts and feelings. It amounts to being condemned to solitary confinement for the rest of one’s life. Our feelings become insignificant and our pain is a curse which serves no useful purpose. That is why suicide and euthanasia are becoming more common in our secular society. For many people everything is ultimately absurd and meaningless without any hope of ever seeing their loved ones again…

There cannot be a greater contrast with the teaching of Jesus that the glory of God is seen in the beauty of nature and there is an answer to the problem of evil. He has demonstrated how it can be defeated by having trust in our heavenly Father, adopting a positive attitude to life and loving others even more than ourselves! He has transformed human society even though evil will always remain a challenge. That is why Pascal believed Jesus will be in agony until the end of the world…

A movement towards evil remains a choice in this life as we decide who we are to be in eternity. As long as there is a humanity, our Saviour will be with each of us, sharing our pain and as the Way through and in whom we come to God.

 

[tonyrey]

Another point that is missed is the value of evil! Suffering is often pointless and meaningless - and used as an argument against God’s Design. For a Christian that is sheer nonsense. Why did Jesus choose to be mocked, scourged and crucified? Was His agony, despair and desolation futile? Was He mentally unbalanced to let Himself be treated so cruelly and unjustly? That is what cynics and sceptics believe but they are wrong and misguided.

Thanks, Aloysium.

“our Saviour will be with each of us” without exception even if we reject Him but He respects our independence and doesn’t compel us to enter His kingdom. No one can justifiably accuse God of being unjust in any respect whatsoever. To do so is to devalue life in this world which in the context of eternity is still worth having in spite of all its disadvantages. There is undoubtedly gross injustice and inequality for which man is not responsible but how could it be otherwise?

Although David Hume was a sceptic he realised the laws of nature cannot be precisely regulated for everyone’s benefit. There are bound to be innocent victims of mindless forces like gravity and electricity. Sooner or later the price of physical pleasure and fulfilment is pain and frustration. To expect to have everything for nothing on earth is sheer fantasy in the mind of a person who cannot offer a valid alternative…

 

[o_mlly]

This is the Pelagian heresy, a very old one indeed.

We do not get to assume that we are saved by our own virtues. …

“Shall it (the happy life) be that of the philosophers, who put forward as the chief good, the good which is in ourselves? Is this the true good? Have they found the remedy for our ills? Is man’s pride cured by placing him on an equality with God?”— Pascal, Pensēes, #430.

“Salvation, such as it shall be in the world to come, shall itself be our final happiness. And this happiness these philosophers refuse to believe in, because they do not see it, and attempt to fabricate for themselves a happiness in this life, based upon a virtue which is as deceitful as it is proud.”— St. Augustine, The City of God, XIX, 4.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

That is why Pascal believed Jesus will be in agony until the end of the world…

Every hour of every day somewhere in the world he is still sacrificed on the Catholic altar.

 

[tonyrey]

“Shall it (the happy life) be that of the philosophers, who put forward as the chief good, the good which is in ourselves? Is this the true good? Have they found the remedy for our ills? Is man’s pride cured by placing him on an equality with God?”— Pascal, Pensēes, #430.

“Salvation, such as it shall be in the world to come, shall itself be our final happiness. And this happiness these philosophers refuse to believe in, because they do not see it, and attempt to fabricate for themselves a happiness in this life, based upon a virtue which is as deceitful as it is proud.”— St. Augustine, The City of God, XIX, 4.

Those who criticise the evil in the world imply they are superior to the Creator and **know **what it should (and could) be like!! A subtitle for this thread could be “Pride and Presumption”.

 

[inocente]

This is the Pelagian heresy, a very old one indeed.

On the other thread you’ve disagreed with Catholic bible scholars, theologians, philosophers and the Pope. Now you say virtue ethics, as in blessed are the meek, as in Plato, Aristotle and Aquinas, is heresy.

I truly would like to know why you have such a profound hatred for teleology. It permeates almost all of your posts. Is it a Baptist thing, or just your thing?

You keep jumping to wrong conclusions. Well, one could say that about every design fan of course .

 

[tonyrey]

This is the Pelagian heresy, a very old one indeed.

We do not get to assume that we are saved by our own virtues. We have no virtues but those God plans for us to exercise and gives us the grace to exercise. We do have freedom, even the freedom to arrogantly assume that our virtues are ours alone and God has nothing to do with their provision…

Indisputable. With most Protestants it is a case of everything, something or nothing - due to their rejection of the Catholic Church’s authority. Their disagreement and confusion about the sacraments, for example, illustrates the weakness of their “Choose for yourself” and “Do your own thing” policy. Yet it was the Apostolic Church that selected the books in the Bible…

Much as I respect Anglicans the fact remains that the Church of England was instituted by Henry VIII so that he could obtain a divorce!

 

[Aloysium]

. . . We do not get to assume that we are saved by our own virtues. We have no virtues but those God plans for us to exercise and gives us the grace to exercise. We do have freedom, even the freedom to arrogantly assume that our virtues are ours alone and God has nothing to do with their provision . . .

Those virtues are God-given. We choose whether or not to embrace them. We possess them by His grace and our acceptance. We can easily fall out of grace, succumbing to sin.

 

[o_mlly]

The Designed Body: Irreducible Complexity on Steroids = Exquisite Engineering - …

As science attempting to understand the “how” in the origins of life, observed complexity that cannot be explained as evolved does leads to a conclusion that evolution as an explanation of all life is lacking. In its ignorance, science does not and ought not invent answers; just keep looking.

As a philosophy attempting to explain the origins of life, observed complexity (as a phenomena) is certainly a premise to which one may add metaphysical premises and infer as necessary an intelligence as its only possible cause.

As theology attempting to understand revelation, the phenomena supports what faith has already revealed – an Intelligent Designer.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

On the other thread you’ve disagreed with Catholic bible scholars, theologians, philosophers and the Pope. Now you say virtue ethics, as in blessed are the meek, as in Plato, Aristotle and Aquinas, is heresy. .

This is not true.

 

[tonyrey]

As science attempting to understand the “how” in the origins of life, observed complexity that cannot be explained as evolved does leads to a conclusion that evolution as an explanation of all life is lacking. In its ignorance, science does not and ought not invent answers; just keep looking.

As a philosophy attempting to explain the origins of life, observed complexity (as a phenomena) is certainly a premise to which one may add metaphysical premises and infer as necessary an intelligence as its only possible cause.

As theology attempting to understand revelation, the phenomena supports what faith has already revealed – an Intelligent Designer.

Indeed. Throughout His ministry Jesus insisted on the purpose of life which culminated with His words on the Cross: “It is consummated” but before that He had said to the good thief “Today you shall be with me in Paradise”. Many of the first Christians were tortured and martyred in the amphitheatre but they died rejoicing because they believed they too would soon be in heaven. That is the basis of a Catholic doctrine rejected or neglected by many Protestants: the Communion of Saints which is a great source of joy and consolation when we have lost our loved ones. Whether we are alive or dead we are members of God’s family who can help and intercede for one another. Wherever we are we are united by love which is the most powerful form of energy that exists In fact without love nothing would exist! It is the supreme Cause and Purpose of life:

1 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.

35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”[a]) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,** neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
**

After he wrote those words St Paul was martyred simply because he was a Christian…

 

[tonyrey]

“Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.”

Jesus makes it quite clear God knows exactly what is happening on earth and is responsible for.all the evil in the world. The only reasonable explanation is that all the unnecessary misery and suffering are outweighed by the immense value, richness and beauty of life. Very often nothing can compensate the victims of misfortune and injustice on earth but Our Lord has promised us they will be consoled and rewarded in heaven. Like Him they atone for the selfishness, indifference and lack of compassion of others.

Suffering is no longer an insoluble problem but a solution! By His example our Redeemer has transformed it into a source of hope and inspiration. He has fulfilled God’s plan that we shall all be reunited in heaven if we follow His example and love others **more **than ourselves. He has perfected the commandment that we should love our neighbour as ourselves- which is the bare minimum we should do as equals in the sight of God. It doesn’t solve the problem of diabolical injustice in the distribution of the planet’s resources. It takes saints like Bishop Oscar Romero to change the world…

 

[inocente]

This is not true.

I said “I suggest that Christian morality isn’t found in teleology or complicated excuses, it’s found in virtue” and you called it heresy. I’ll take this as your retraction. Perhaps if design fans read up on the three categories of normative ethics and how they relate to Christianity, you guys might start agreeing between yourselves on a few things.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I said “I suggest that Christian morality isn’t found in teleology or complicated excuses, it’s found in virtue” and you called it heresy. I’ll take this as your retraction. Perhaps if design fans read up on the three categories of normative ethics and how they relate to Christianity, you guys might start agreeing between yourselves on a few things.

You are so predictable … again wanting to believe we are at each other’s throats!

Failed strategy once again.

It is the Protestants who fail to agree with each other … hence thousands of sects!