Desperate Help Needed In Answering a Baptist

  • Thread starter Thread starter CEAbbott
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

CEAbbott

Guest
Hello,
I am new to this Catholic Forum. I would like to ask the help of Catholics who are very knowledgable about our faith and the Bible. I befriended a baptist on FB and have since sent out post regarding the Month of May and the Virgin Mary. I also posted some writings from St. Louis De Montfort about Mary “True Devotion To Mary” and have received some nasty comments from this baptist. I have tried to explain to her that Catholics do not “worship” Mary, as is the misconception of mostly all protestants, but that Catholics hold Mary in high esteem and revere her for her exalted state given to her by God to bear His Only Son. I received this response and ask your help in answering her with wisdom and kindness.
Here is what she said:

***"yes I agree that the lord searched the hearts of and chose (from among the kindred of David)a pure and innocent young earthly woman,Mary. let us not forget the "earthly "part.But let us also not for get that Mary did her part, she raised to… manhood, the savior of mankind.But i’d like to point out that Mary never fed 5000 souls from a few fishes and loves, Mary never taught common people to be “fishers of men” Mary never rose anyone from the dead nor has she risen from the dead,Mary never sat with thousands and taught how to pray(Jesus said: do not pray as the heathen do,repeating prayers over and over!)or how to love or how to live.

I feel the need at this point to add that the “catholic church” was not formed by Jesus when he said “upon this rock I shall build my church”( that is a total mis-interpretation of the words of Christ) because Peter the disciple was a “Baptist”, he was “Baptized by immersion” not by a sprinkling of water on his scull in his infancy without his freewill and testimony.Baptists are not “protest-ants”.We are not and have never been “protesting” anything, we trace our lineage right back to the discipleship after the actions of Jesus, when he requested of his cousin John, to be “baptized” by immersion.The “Catholic church” was not formed until nearly 400 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus! by the emperor Constantine to quell unrest among hostile factions of “Christian” leaning groups, and and appointing Rome the center of the governing body.

This was meant to be posted between my two other posts: EPHESIANS 2:18> For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the FATHER "***

Thank you to anyone who is willing to help me with this dialogue with this baptist. I’m sure there will be many more posts like this one.
God bless you all,
CEA
 
CEAbbott said:
Hello,
I am new to this Catholic Forum. I would like to ask the help of Catholics who are very knowledgable about our faith and the Bible. I befriended a baptist on FB and have since sent out post regarding the Month of May and the Virgin Mary. I also posted some writings from St. Louis De Montfort about Mary “True Devotion To Mary” and have received some nasty comments from this baptist. I have tried to explain to her that Catholics do not “worship” Mary, as is the misconception of mostly all protestants, but that Catholics hold Mary in high esteem and revere her for her exalted state given to her by God to bear His Only Son. I received this response and ask your help in answering her with wisdom and kindness.
Here is what she said:

***"yes I agree that the lord searched the hearts of and chose (from among the kindred of David)a pure and innocent young earthly woman,Mary. let us not forget the "earthly "part.But let us also not for get that Mary did her part, she raised to… manhood, the savior of mankind.But i’d like to point out that Mary never fed 5000 souls from a few fishes and loves, Mary never taught common people to be “fishers of men” Mary never rose anyone from the dead nor has she risen from the dead,Mary never sat with thousands and taught how to pray(Jesus said: do not pray as the heathen do,repeating prayers over and over!)or how to love or how to live.

I feel the need at this point to add that the “catholic church” was not formed by Jesus when he said “upon this rock I shall build my church”( that is a total mis-interpretation of the words of Christ) because Peter the disciple was a “Baptist”, he was “Baptized by immersion” not by a sprinkling of water on his scull in his infancy without his freewill and testimony.Baptists are not “protest-ants”.We are not and have never been “protesting” anything, we trace our lineage right back to the discipleship after the actions of Jesus, when he requested of his cousin John, to be “baptized” by immersion.The “Catholic church” was not formed until nearly 400 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus! by the emperor Constantine to quell unrest among hostile factions of “Christian” leaning groups, and and appointing Rome the center of the governing body.

This was meant to be posted between my two other posts: EPHESIANS 2:18> For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the FATHER "***

Thank you to anyone who is willing to help me with this dialogue with this baptist. I’m sure there will be many more posts like this one.
God bless you all,
CEA
Click to expand...
Hard to argue with that logic. I would be curious to hear what folks have to say about this, as well.
 
I would start by asking him to be charitable and ask you what you in fact believe, rather than being antagonistic. Otherwise you may as well touch a hot stove.
  1. Jesus prayed the exact same prayer multiple times in the garden of Gethsemane, and the statement about “vain repetition” is taken entirely out of context. The pagans of that time essentially tried to manipulate their gods with repeated rote prayers. Union with the deity was never the purpose, merely manipulation through repetition. The whole idea of vain repetition is a bit interesting, because Christian prayer is not in vain. Were Christ’s repeated prayers in vain? What about the liturgical repetition of set prayers every day (the third, sixth, ninth hours), the Psalms on feast days, etc? All his other comments about Mary are beside the point, because we don’t worship Mary.
The real reason Mary is important, aside from being the absolutely Holy Mother of God, is the fact that she is the sole link, the righteous remnant, the bridge between the people of the Old and the New Covenant. Mary is the last of the Old that was the first of the New. She is the visible sign, the validation of God’s covenant faithfulness. She is also the Christian hope, as the first example of a person to be graced with the covenant promises of God through her example. The “first fruits” concept is rife throughout Scripture. She is Daughter Zion. Ripping the obvious Marian significance out of Genesis 3:15 will rob his understanding of the Gospel of John, God’s covenant faithfulness, the nature of holiness, redemption, recapitulation, etc.

You won’t find the words “baptism of immersion” anywhere in the Bible. Baptism does not always refer to immersion, and there are liturgical documents, such as the Didache, that some have dated to before the NT was even finished being written (let alone compiled), that refers to baptism of infants by pouring. The next question would be to ask why Christians would compile a Bible that directly contradicts their practice. Who compiled the Bible he uses? What did they believe? Shouldn’t that affect interpretation or are his opinions more valid? By what authority?

The Catholic Church was mentioned by name by Ignatius in AD 107. His history is a bit…off. Rome was the governing body because that is where Peter and Paul died, unanimously. The succession of those after Peter took place in Rome from then on, and this would have been AD 67-68 if memory serves.

You might also want to ask how 3,000 people were baptized in one day away from a large water source in a desert climate. Hmmm…immersion? Doubt it.

Most of the arguments you will find answered ad nauseum on this forum, so don’t fret about answers, just do a little digging. But seriously, if he can’t be charitable, then shake the dust off your shoes and leave him to God’s grace. There is no reason to suffer his abuse and attacks on the sacred. God Bless you.
 
answer with love, joy and truth…

you will find lots of articles by searching the main site catholic.com/ put the terms in the quick search box…

you will find about Our Lady…the founding of the Church by Jesus…etc

also I would suggest not quoting from St. Louis De. Monfort …his language is rather “baroque language” and needs to be understood in its proper sense…and not does not suit everyone anyhow…

also you will find lots on Steve Ray’s site catholic-convert.com/

search under “resourses…writings…” catholic-convert.com/resources/writings/steve-rays/
 
It just amazes me that non-Catholics seem to think they know what we believe better than us. Such arrogance!
Catholics do NOT worship Mary!!
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
I would start by asking him to be charitable and ask you what you in fact believe, rather than being antagonistic. Otherwise you may as well touch a hot stove.
  1. Jesus prayed the exact same prayer multiple times in the garden of Gethsemane, and the statement about “vain repetition” is taken entirely out of context. The pagans of that time essentially tried to manipulate their gods with repeated rote prayers. Union with the deity was never the purpose, merely manipulation through repetition. The whole idea of vain repetition is a bit interesting, because Christian prayer is not in vain. Were Christ’s repeated prayers in vain? What about the liturgical repetition of set prayers every day (the third, sixth, ninth hours), the Psalms on feast days, etc? All his other comments about Mary are beside the point, because we don’t worship Mary.
The real reason Mary is important, aside from being the absolutely Holy Mother of God, is the fact that she is the sole link, the righteous remnant, the bridge between the people of the Old and the New Covenant. Mary is the last of the Old that was the first of the New. She is the visible sign, the validation of God’s covenant faithfulness. She is also the Christian hope, as the first example of a person to be graced with the covenant promises of God through her example. The “first fruits” concept is rife throughout Scripture. She is Daughter Zion. Ripping the obvious Marian significance out of Genesis 3:15 will rob his understanding of the Gospel of John, God’s covenant faithfulness, the nature of holiness, redemption, recapitulation, etc.

You won’t find the words “baptism of immersion” anywhere in the Bible. Baptism does not always refer to immersion, and there are liturgical documents, such as the Didache, that some have dated to before the NT was even finished being written (let alone compiled), that refers to baptism of infants by pouring. The next question would be to ask why Christians would compile a Bible that directly contradicts their practice. Who compiled the Bible he uses? What did they believe? Shouldn’t that affect interpretation or are his opinions more valid? By what authority?

The Catholic Church was mentioned by name by Ignatius in AD 107. His history is a bit…off. Rome was the governing body because that is where Peter and Paul died, unanimously. The succession of those after Peter took place in Rome from then on, and this would have been AD 67-68 if memory serves.

You might also want to ask how 3,000 people were baptized in one day away from a large water source in a desert climate. Hmmm…immersion? Doubt it.

Most of the arguments you will find answered ad nauseum on this forum, so don’t fret about answers, just do a little digging. But seriously, if he can’t be charitable, then shake the dust off your shoes and leave him to God’s grace. There is no reason to suffer his abuse and attacks on the sacred. God Bless you.
Click to expand...
Hi Nathan and thank you for your response.
I just wanted to note here that I am in no way being “antagonistic” to this woman, as it is my personal FaceBook page, and most of my family and friends, or rather, ALL of my family and friends are Catholics – so my FB posts are about our Pope, along with Catholic prayers and devotions, and news from EWTN. This woman, who happens to be baptized Catholic, but just found Christianity last year, is trying to prove her newly found faith as being the one true faith. My guess is that she herself, did not write what I quoted in my initial post here on this forum, but that it is probably her pastor or a friend who is well “versed” in protestant beliefs and/or scripture. I strongly believe that my dialogue is not with her, but with someone else she is fronting.

I have just written John Martinoni, the great Apologist, (the “Bible Christian Society.com”) and asked for his help as well, as I have listened and purchased all of his CD’s and have given them to those ignorant of the true faith - the Catholic Church. I’m sure that thru this posting, yours and others comments, and John’s anticipated response, I will be able to have an intelligent direct dialogue with this woman, or rather, the person using her to write comments on my FaceBook wall.
Thank you all again and God bless!
p.s. I will look at the links attached from the other posts I’ve received so far and I’m sure I will find alot of help.
 
I guess it would depend on whether they’re ready to hear the Truth. Otherwise you’re hitting your head against a brick wall. You can’t win these arguments through reason alone. Prayer is essential. I’d keep in touch with them and make occasional Catholic statements on your Facebook status. That’s evangelism by stealth 😛 wait until they’re ready to hear. It doesn’t sound like they are. Do all things in love and season with prayer. That’s the best response you can give.
 
It is an exercise in frustration to attempt to respond to such ingrained bigotry and ignorance. Take pity upon her, for she is only repeating the falsehoods that she has been taught by well-meaining, but grossly misguided “teachers”. Her response sounds like it was cribbed off an anti-Catholic site. It contains so many profound errors that your work is cut out for you. First, get your own copy of Catholicism for Dummies and begin to read it. Every Christian should have a copy. Many would convert after reading it, and the others would at least stop criticizing from a position of ignorance.

Start off very slowly, as you are attempting to overcome as much as a lifetime of false teaching about Catholicism.
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi Nathan and thank you for your response.
I just wanted to note here that I am in no way being “antagonistic” to this woman, as it is my own FaceBook page and most of my family and friends, or rather all, are Catholics, so I post things about our Pope along with Catholic prayers and devotions and news from EWTN. This woman who happens to be baptized Catholic, but just found Christianity last year, is trying to prove her own faith as being the one true faith. My guess is that she herself, did not write what I quoted in my initial post here on this forum, but that it is probably her pastor or a friend who is “versed” in protestant beliefs and scripture. I strongly believe that my dialogue is not with her, but with someone else she is acting as a front for.
I have also written John Martinoni from the “Bible Christian Society.com” and asked for his help as well, as I have listened and purchased all of his CD’s and have given them to those ignorant of the true faith - the Catholic Church. I’m sure that thru this posting, your comments, and John’s response, I will be able to have an intelligent direct dialogue with this woman, or the person hiding behind her writing these post on my FaceBook wall.
Thank you all again and God bless!
I will look at the other posts with links attached that I’ve received so far and I’m sure will find alot of help.
Click to expand...
I think you misunderstood. I mean ask the person you are dialoguing with to be charitable to you. I apologize for any ambiguity. If you want apologetics, there are a lot of good resources available:

philvaz.com/apologetics/audio.htm

socrates58.blogspot.com/

cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/apolog.htm

But if you want meatier theology and a deeper understanding and have some spare change, I prefer Dr. Brant Pitre or Dr John Bergsma:

catholic-productions.com/store/audio/pitre/index.html

catholic-productions.com/store/audio/bergsma/index.html

Some free Resources for theology:

thedivinelamp.wordpress.com/

thesacredpage.com

agapebiblestudy.com/
 
Hello CE Abbot, welcome to the forums.
Ask for scriptural proof that Jesus was immersed when He was baptised.
there is none; as close a reading of their pet verse. " and coming up from the water" happend after Christ was baptised, not while He was baptised.
ie… After fishing Frank, came up from the water. Was Frank under the water fishing?
it also does not say coming up from under the water.
 
Martin Luther on Mary and Marian Veneration:

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.” (Sermon: Sept. 1, 1522)

God chose Mary out of all the women on the earth to bear his Son,
"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you… Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God." (Luke 1:28, 30 RSV)

Luke 1:46-49 (RSV), 'And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”

I guess not all generations (after 1517 A.D.) have decided to call Mary blessed:shrug:

Mary not only was** ‘overshadowed’ by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to God’s Son,** she raised our Savior, she was his first disciple, Jesus performed his first miracle at Cana after her intercession (John 2:3). Mary was with him during his three year ministry, was with him at the foot of the cross, and was with the other disciples at Pentecost and received the Holy Spirit (again!) **, and we can’t honor this woman???
**
1500 years of Christians honoring Mary and the other Christian saints was thrown to the wind after the Protestant Reformation. Very sad indeed!!!
 
OK, I would agree, you are going to have your work cut out here. You have to take small steps, You can’t respond to everything at once. Do one point at a time. remember, EVERYTHING the Catholic Church teaches has a basis in Scripture. Now, you won’t find “And Jesus thus made Peter the first Pope” but the concept will be there. Here are some things to consider.

Mary - I guarantee, your friend has never even heard the arguments for the Old testament “types” of Mary. The fathers of the Church saw these. The New Testament writers allude to these types but do some research on Mary as the new Eve (Eve said no, Mary said yes, Jesus referring to Mary as “woman”, passage in Genesis speaking of the woman’s seed striking the serpent’s head). Mary as the new Ark. The story of Mary visiting Elizabeth in Luke is a parallel to 2 Samuel 6. The woman clothed in the sun appears in Revelation immediately after the Ark is seen.

catholic-convert.com/2011/02/23/mary-ark-of-the-new-covenant/

Peter as the Rock. The overwhelming theme of the gospels is the kingdom. I forget the actual numbers but Jesus speaks of the kingdom more than anything. Again, David was an old Testament “type” of Jesus. Issiah 22 or 23 speaks of the prime minister’s office in the Davidic kingdom. The Prime Minister held the keys of the kingdom and had the power to bind and lose. This is the power Jesus gives to Peter alone. Note, the Davidic kingdom had a Queen Mother also, another good thing to research.

You have to read the Bible like a first century Jew to get these meanings

The Church not existing until Constantine. Fortunately we have writings by people between 33 and 400 AD. Read these writings (Many are on the web) and tell me if these writers were Catholic in their thinking or not.

The feeding of the 5000 is an interesting thing to bring up because the early fathers saw this as a blueprint for the Eucharist (which was the center of worship in the early church and not a mere symbol).

Did Peter even have the possibility of being baptized as an infant? The bible tells of entire households being baptized, so would these just be households without children.

As was mentioned a little research can give you more than enough info. Unfortunately, I think what will happen if you bring up one of these you will not get a response, you will just be redirected to another topic,
 
CEAbbott said:
Hello,
I am new to this Catholic Forum. I would like to ask the help of Catholics who are very knowledgable about our faith and the Bible. I befriended a baptist on FB and have since sent out post regarding the Month of May and the Virgin Mary. I also posted some writings from St. Louis De Montfort about Mary “True Devotion To Mary” and have received some nasty comments from this baptist. I have tried to explain to her that Catholics do not “worship” Mary, as is the misconception of mostly all protestants, but that Catholics hold Mary in high esteem and revere her for her exalted state given to her by God to bear His Only Son. I received this response and ask your help in answering her with wisdom and kindness.
Here is what she said…
Click to expand...
You might want to share with her the following points:

1) The Ten Commandments tell us to honor our mothers.

2) Jesus gave Mary perfect honor, at least in terms of the honor a son is to give his mother. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus did not perfectly follow the Ten Commandments.

3) According to the Bible, the Church is composed of a head: Jesus, and a body: Christians.

4) The head of the Church has a mother, and that mother is Mary. The mother of the head of the Church is likewise the mother of the body. To say otherwise is to say that the head and the body are not truly united.

5) Therefore, Mary is not only the mother of Jesus, but also the mother of the Church, including all the Christians who make up the body (and that includes your Baptist friend).

6) Because Jesus gave his mother perfect honor, Catholics (and Orthodox Christians) honor Mary in imitation of Jesus. Although we are unable to do anything perfectly, we can strive to give Mary as high degree of honor as we can (so long as we do not cross the line in doing acts of worship). The Orthodox Christians likewise give Mary special honor. As a former Protestant, I can tell you that for many Protestants, “honoring” Mary means getting a school girl to dress up like her once a year for the Christmas pageant, and then completely ignoring Mary until Christmas rolls around next year. This doesn’t say a whole lot for honoring ones mother. The sad reality is that Muslims seem to actually have a greater reverence for Mary than do many Protestants (consider Islamic teachings regarding Mary as outlined in this link.)

7) I’m sure your friend has a big list of complaints about Catholic Marian devotions (of which we have seen only the tip of the iceberg in this thread). So she is quick to tell people what they ought not do. But based on what I have stated in this post, maybe you should turn this around and ask her what a Christian ought to do. And remember to point out that Jesus gave Mary perfect honor, so ask her what sort of actions and mentality a Christian should have in imitating Jesus in this matter.

I have used this in conversations with Protestants before. They were unable to refute my reasoning which demonstrated that Mary is the mother of each and every Christian. But they still complained that Catholics take honoring Mary “too far.” And yet when I ask what we should be doing instead, they always kept giving negative responses, meaning all they could do is declare what should not be done. To this day, no one that I debated this with ever suggested even one thing that a Christian can do in order to honor Mary, even though I repeatedly asked them to do so. All they did was continue to make a bunch of “Thou shalt not…” type statements, but not even a single “Thou shalt…” one, as if we honor a person only in terms of what we don’t do. They didn’t even come up with the whole Christmas pageant thing until I brought it up.

As a side note, if the subject of statues of Mary comes up and she criticizes this practice, ask her if she owns a nativity set. If she does then she has statues of Jesus, Mary and Joseph (and probably an angel, too).
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi Nathan and thank you for your response.
I just wanted to note here that I am in no way being “antagonistic” to this woman, as it is my personal FaceBook page, and most of my family and friends, or rather, ALL of my family and friends are Catholics – so my FB posts are about our Pope, along with Catholic prayers and devotions, and news from EWTN. This woman, who happens to be baptized Catholic, but just found Christianity last year, is trying to prove her newly found faith as being the one true faith. My guess is that she herself, did not write what I quoted in my initial post here on this forum, but that it is probably her pastor or a friend who is well “versed” in protestant beliefs and/or scripture. I strongly believe that my dialogue is not with her, but with someone else she is fronting.

I have just written John Martinoni, the great Apologist, (the “Bible Christian Society.com”) and asked for his help as well, as I have listened and purchased all of his CD’s and have given them to those ignorant of the true faith - the Catholic Church. I’m sure that thru this posting, yours and others comments, and John’s anticipated response, I will be able to have an intelligent direct dialogue with this woman, or rather, the person using her to write comments on my FaceBook wall.
Thank you all again and God bless!
p.s. I will look at the links attached from the other posts I’ve received so far and I’m sure I will find alot of help.
Click to expand...
Nathan is right . This is very true what he says . And I too have found on youtube that many of my opponents seek help and get it from Pastors of their churches .Catholic means “universal” Jesus meant to have one church “Upon this rock I will build my church”
There are over 45000 protestant denominations (splinters off of the Catholic church)Baptist religion is one of those splinters formed around 1611 . As I stated before while Jesus was on earth he started to build the Catholic church long before the Baptist protestant denomination was built . Mary is mentioned as mother of our Lord in Luke chapter 1:43 "Mother of my Lord " She is the mother to the son which is the 2nd divine person in the holy trinity .The Holy Trinity Is three divine persons in 1 God . Jesus making up one of those divine persons . Mary being his mother is mother to us all . She is mentioned in Rev 12 . She is the woman with the moon at her feet crowned with twelve stars pregnant with Jesus and clothed with the son . She is alot more important then just a woman who gave birth to Jesus. She is also part of the great cloud of witnesses that surrounds us (see Hebrews 12:1 ) who is one of the holy ones who prays for us (see Rev 5:8) Please do not believe for a minute that your Baptist friend or the preacher are correct on this matter. They try and take advantage of Catholics who dont know scripture or history .Nathan is right as well . Keep coming back if you have more challenges coming your way . Frankie
 
Hello,

Yes Mary was a great woman I am sure she went through a lot of hard times and great times and would never take anything away from her. But she was just a woman just like i am just a man nothing else born a sinner. I think the catholic church puts to much praise on her she is not all that the catholic church teaches her to be. if what the catechism teaches is true then the Bible is wrong or one contradicts the other and i put my Faith in God not Sacred Tradition of men who,
Whose breath is in his nostrils;
For of what account is he?. Men don’t even know where there next breath is going to come from so i stick with the 66 books of Holy Scripture.

look at the differnce between the Bible and the catechism.

494 At the announcement that she would give birth to “the Son of the Most High” without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that “with God nothing will be impossible”: "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace:140
As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary “the Mother of the living” and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143
411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”, makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.305 Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the “new Eve”.*** Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306***Luke

1:46 46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Why would you use the word Saviour if you did not need one if you were born free of sin?

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

If you sin you have to die so she did not die she was resurrected? I don’t read that anywhere biblically. Mary’s name after the gospel once Jesus name after 983.

Hebrews 9 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"36 Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."37 By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: “Thy will be done.” Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death:*** By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the “Mother of Mercy,” the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender “the hour of our death” wholly to her care.*** May she be there as she was at her son’s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing38 to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

The All-Holy One? What? Who is the All-Holly one God and God alone!

966 969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect.*** Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”***512

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and ***one mediator ***between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Hebrews 9:
15And for this cause ***he is the mediator ***of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The only one with out sin Jesus!
 
Strong’s Greek Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for “Petros”:
4074. Petros pet’-ros apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:–Peter, rock. Compare 2786.

Result of search for “Petra”:
4073. petra pet’-ra feminine of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively):–rock.

Matt. 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.”

Matthew 16:18 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

καγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
KJV with Strong’s

And I say also unto thee That thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Πέτρος petros 4074
N-NSM
Peter
πέτρᾳ petra 4073
N-DSF
rock

Petros peter = a piece of rock, if he was a piece of rock how could you build a church on it Jesus is the head of the Church no one else.

Petra rock = a mass of rock

John 1:41-43 (New King James Version)
41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.
Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah.[a] You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone)

Not Rock Not the Cheif Corner Stone just a man.
 
will44 said:
Hello,

Yes Mary was a great woman I am sure she went through a lot of hard times and great times and would never take anything away from her. But she was just a woman just like i am just a man nothing else born a sinner. I think the catholic church puts to much praise on her she is not all that the catholic church teaches her to be. if what the catechism teaches is true then the Bible is wrong or one contradicts the other and i put my Faith in God not Sacred Tradition of men who, Whose breath is in his nostrils;
For of what account is he?. Men don’t even know where there next breath is going to come from so i stick with the 66 books of Holy Scripture.
Click to expand...
Just a couple of clarification points. I read your whole post and I understand some of your points but I think a couple things have to be stated. Mary was a creature created by God, she is not divine, she can’t answer prayers. I am Catholic, but I understand some of the wording you presented is difficult. I often struggle with some of it. Just a couple ways I reconcile it myself. Hopefully it will make sense to you, and to my fellow Catholics, if I am speaking out of turn, please challenge me, I’m always learning.

We know Mary was “full of grace” or “highly favored” whichever biblical translation you hold to. Anything that Mary “is” is because of God’s grace and not of her doing. She was chosen like no other. If Jesus is fully divine as well as fully human, then her womb carried the divine nature of Jesus as well as the human. If you can compare that to any other creature in history, please do. Ok, next, man there is a STRONG parallel between Mary and the Ark in Scripture. I have been a Catholic my whole life and I just “discovered” that last year. And the Ark was made of wood and gold yet it was holy. It carried the OT word of God and someone was struck down by God for touching it as it was falling. Marry carried the NT Word of God that existed from the “beginning”. Can a sinful creature be permitted to do this. If we believe Mary is without sin it is not because of Mary it is because of God.

catholic-convert.com/2011/02/23/mary-ark-of-the-new-covenant/

NO all this is not spelled out word for word in Scripture but we believe that the ideas, the concepts are there. I know non-Catholics have problems with titles like “Queen of Heaven” and “Mother of God” but are these really inappropriate. If Mary IS the woman clothed in the sun in Revelation, is the rest a stretch.

Yes, Jesus is the one mediator between God an man. Amen. But why do we dare ask a friend, a brother, a sister to pray for us. We can certainly pray for ourselves. As Catholics we believe that we are all somehow connected, living or dead as members in the body of Christ. Our prayers have power but those who are already with Christ in heaven can offer more perfect prayers than we can. We are still bound in our flesh and we still sin. So yes, I hope Mary does pray for me,and that God will answer her prayers, I certainly need it.

One more thing, double check your Bible, there should be 73 books in there 🙂
 
CEAbbott said:
Hello,
I am new to this Catholic Forum. I would like to ask the help of Catholics who are very knowledgable about our faith and the Bible. I befriended a baptist on FB and have since sent out post regarding the Month of May and the Virgin Mary. I also posted some writings from St. Louis De Montfort about Mary “True Devotion To Mary” and have received some nasty comments from this baptist. I have tried to explain to her that Catholics do not “worship” Mary, as is the misconception of mostly all protestants, but that Catholics hold Mary in high esteem and revere her for her exalted state given to her by God to bear His Only Son. I received this response and ask your help in answering her with wisdom and kindness.
Here is what she said:

"yes I agree that the lord searched the hearts of and chose (from among the kindred of David)a pure and innocent young earthly woman,Mary. let us not forget the "earthly "part.But let us also not for get that Mary did her part, she raised to… manhood, the savior of mankind.But i’d like to point out that Mary never fed 5000 souls from a few fishes and loves, Mary never taught common people to be “fishers of men” Mary never rose anyone from the dead nor has she risen from the dead,Mary never sat with thousands and taught how to pray(Jesus said: do not pray as the heathen do,repeating prayers over and over!)or how to love or how to live.

I feel the need at this point to add that the “catholic church” was not formed by Jesus when he said “upon this rock I shall build my church”( that is a total mis-interpretation of the words of Christ) because Peter the disciple was a “Baptist”, he was “Baptized by immersion” not by a sprinkling of water on his scull in his infancy without his freewill and testimony.Baptists are not “protest-ants”.We are not and have never been “protesting” anything, we trace our lineage right back to the discipleship after the actions of Jesus, when he requested of his cousin John, to be “baptized” by immersion.The “Catholic church” was not formed until nearly 400 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus! by the emperor Constantine to quell unrest among hostile factions of “Christian” leaning groups, and and appointing Rome the center of the governing body.

This was meant to be posted between my two other posts: EPHESIANS 2:18> For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the FATHER "

Thank you to anyone who is willing to help me with this dialogue with this baptist. I’m sure there will be many more posts like this one.
God bless you all,
CEA
Click to expand...
My first reaction would be to tell them “no one said that she did those things”, but I don’t know what you posted. Please here what you posted to the Baptist and then we can assess it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top