Desperate Help Needed In Answering a Baptist

[will44]

Queen of Heaven yes you should look into that read these articles and see what you think. it is hard for a none catholic to believe such things but is was at one point catholic read lots of the catechism and done a lots of research been through all the traditions.
and i found that to Christ alone be the Glory. i pray you all find the Truth.

eternal-productions.org/catholicism.html

66 books

 

[Robbinson]

Wish him /her well and respond with grace. Suggest he/she read the writings of the earliest Christians which will clearly demonstrate that the early Church was apostolic and Catholic. Baptism by sprinkling (as an alternative to immersion - which is also valid) dates back to the Didache (from late first century to early second century - depending who is dating it).

His/her post is argumentative - better for focus on our common bond in Christ and be willing to discuss, mutually, in charity and in love - starting with history, scripture and traditional understanding of these doctrines.

There is not historical evidence for a “baptist” Chuch or doctrine contrary to apostolic authority in the first millenium of Church history.

As to Mary - all generations will call her blessed (does he/her?). There is alot written about Mary - she is a wonderful intercessor. That said, she is an obstacle to many non-Catholics (most of whom reject even the more general doctrine of the communion of the saints and intercessory prayers of the saints in heaven).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[CalCatholic]

Queen of Heaven yes you should look into that read these articles and see what you think. it is hard for a none catholic to believe such things but is was at one point catholic read lots of the catechism and done a lots of research been through all the traditions.
and i found that to Christ alone be the Glory. i pray you all find the Truth.

eternal-productions.org/catholicism.html

66 books

And Will, we will pray for you and hope that you will find the fullness of Christian faith that Catholics have had for two thousand years!

 

[will44]

Only 2000 years I think we have all sort of been Christian in a way for about 6000 years serving the One God the God of Abraham and Isaac. Christ is in the Trinity right and that was in the beginning.

 

[Bookcat]

Will,

In addition to work to understand each other more…and remove misconceptions …seeking greater fellowship and to follow Christs will and prayer for his followers to be united…

Let us remember that more unites us than divides us…(namely Jesus!) let us continue to love Jesus Christ the Lord …seeking to know him and love him more and more…

 

[Bookcat]

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf. 1 Pet 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world. Amen."

Pope Benedict XVI Homily Yankee Stadium April 2008

 

[pablope]

[

QUOTE=CEAbbott;7860916]Hello,
I am new to this Catholic Forum. I would like to ask the help of Catholics who are very
Here is what she said:

***"yes I agree that the lord searched the hearts of and chose (from among the kindred of David)a pure and innocent young earthly woman,Mary. let us not forget the "earthly "part.But let us also not for get that Mary did her part, she raised to… manhood, the savior of mankind.But i’d like to point out that Mary never fed 5000 souls from a few fishes and loves, Mary never taught common people to be “fishers of men” Mary never rose anyone from the dead nor has she risen from the dead,Mary never sat with thousands and taught how to pray(Jesus said: do not pray as the heathen do,repeating prayers over and over!)or how to love or how to live.

Just to add additional pointers…ask her to provide you an official document from the Catholic Church where Catholics are required to worship Mary. If she could not produce one, ask her where she got the information that we catholics worship Mary. This way, you can get the source of her misinformation and you can begin refuting the information.

I feel the need at this point to add that the “catholic church” was not formed by Jesus when he said “upon this rock I shall build my church”( that is a total mis-interpretation of the words of Christ) because Peter the disciple was a “Baptist”, he was “Baptized by immersion” not by a sprinkling of water on his scull in his infancy without his freewill and testimony.Baptists are not “protest-ants”.We are not and have never been “protesting” anything, we trace our lineage right back to the discipleship after the actions of Jesus, when he requested of his cousin John, to be “baptized” by immersion…

This looks like it is right out a Jack Chick track or comic.

First, where did he get the information that Peter was baptized by immersion. This is not in the Bible. Ask her to give you chapter and verse in the Bible where it states Peter was baptized by immersion.

Second, ask her to provide you documents which proves the line of successors from his pastor to the apostles. Most likely, it will not go beyond Martin Luther.

The “Catholic church” was not formed until nearly 400 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus! by the emperor Constantine to quell unrest among hostile factions of “Christian” leaning groups, and and appointing Rome the center of the governing body

Ask her to provide you the source of this information, the book, author who wrote about this, historical document where this is stated.

And if she cannot, then tell her all her statements, with utmost charity, are hogwash devoid of truth.

This was meant to be posted between my two other posts: EPHESIANS 2:18> For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the FATHER "***

Thank you to anyone who is willing to help me with this dialogue with this baptist. I’m sure there will be many more posts like this one.
God bless you all,
CEA

 

[pablope]

Queen of Heaven yes you should look into that read these articles and see what you think. it is hard for a none catholic to believe such things but is was at one point catholic read lots of the catechism and done a lots of research been through all the traditions.
and i found that to Christ alone be the Glory. i pray you all find the Truth.

eternal-productions.org/catholicism.html

66 books

Will, thank you for your prayers…you obviously have a lot of misconceptions and a very biased feelings towards catholics. I suggest that you respect the originator of this thread, she is seeking our help, not yours, and start your own thread/s if you wish.

 

[Church_Militant]

Only 2000 years I think we have all sort of been Christian in a way for about 6000 years serving the One God the God of Abraham and Isaac. Christ is in the Trinity right and that was in the beginning.

Really? So then you see the strict monotheistic understanding of the OT Jews as Christian? I think they’d take issue with that.

Oh…and according to all the early church fathers…your “66 books” was never the canon for Christians, and not even for many Jews.

History…learn it.

Oh…and try Aramaic as well which what Jesus and the apostles all spoke.
Peter the Rock

 

[po18guy]

Hello, Yes Mary was a great woman I am sure she went through a lot of hard times and great times and would never take anything away from her. But she was just a woman just like i am just a man nothing else born a sinner.
The only one with out sin Jesus!

1. You seem to know very little about Catholic teaching on the veneration of Mary.
2. After saying that you will take nothing away form her, you then take away form her.
3. Your bible is incomplete, and tells you so in many places. If you cannot locate those verses, I will help.
4. You make yourself superior in knowledge and insight to each and every Father of the early Church, each and every Saint, each and every Doctor of the Church, each and every Bishop, Priest, Deacon, Abbott, Mother Superior, Nun, Sister, Monk, Brother and Catholic layperson that has ever lived. The number approaches two billion.

Can you see why your self-made view tends to appear as arrogance?

 

[Robbinson]

Baptism by sprinkling (as an alternative to immersion - which is also valid) dates back to the Didache (from late first century to early second century - depending who is dating it).

Correcting my own post . . .

As graciously pointed out to me in a PM (thank you), “pouring” would be a more accurate discription - in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Blessings, Brian

 

[DENNYINMI]

Dear Desparate:

Simply tell them you are very interested in their “lineage”…and would enjoy the writings of their Early Church Fathers, and that you would be most willing to offer (choose from a multitude, including the Councils…declaring Mary the Mother of God)…to share yours.

Since they wont be able to produce them…unless they use the writings of Catholic Early Church Fathers…which would validate our belief on Eucharist…etc…they may just be forced to “rethink” their position!

Most friendly, and if they do accept validated resources of Early Church Father writings…they will get an eyeful!

 

[ajcstr]

this looks like it is right out a jack chick track or comic.

LOL

 

[Defender1]

[This is a well thought out theory you have here , however it is your opinion and nothing more at the end of the day . I have some more of these to get to so let me be brief in my correction towards your theory:To put Mary at the same level as yourself is where you first went wrong . Mary is the mother of our Lord(Luke 1:43 ) scripture does not lie . She is as I explained before the mother of the second divine person in the holy trinity . She is mother to the son . She is the mother of our Lord . Asking her to simply pray for us does not take away Christ as the mediator . WE ask her to pray for us as we ask you or anyone else . You must also understand that Mary is part of the great cloud of witnesses that surrounds us as Paul states in Hebrews 12:1 . She is one of the holy ones praying for us in Revelations 5:8 . She has appeared many times over in Lourdes France , Fatima etc . Her Image at Cuadulupe has still stood after all this time . Her image helped the Aztecs to convert and someday may help the Members of Islam to do the same . The RCC teachings line straight up with the Bible . In my blog I make the connections with the Church teaching and the Bible . I particularly point out Paul’s teachings in the Bible lining up with the RCC teaching . The Catholic faith=more Christianity . Honor thy father and Mother . A good priest practices what he preaches so dont you think it would be wise to believe that Jesus does the same thing? Think about it . Since she is his mother she is our mother . You honor your earthly mother do you not? Then honor Jesus mother and your spiritual mother as well . Your missing 7 books are you not ? I have a blog on those 7 as well . If you study church history and the quotes and writings of early church fathers you will understand that the church is correct in its teaching . For Christ intended for us to have one church “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church”(Matthew 16.)
www.defendingthefaith-frankie.blogspot.com if that does not work put / instead of - in front of frankie . Thank you and God Bless

 

[fred_conty]

Hi Will44, thank you for your inquiry,

It would help immensely to know what faith you hold since each denomination holds something different. And answers are best directed and helpful to you if this is known.

Your question:
Why would you use the word Saviour if you did not need one if you were born free of sin?

This was in refererence to Mary. Mary did indeed need a saviour just as all of us. Jesus was her saviour. The imporant question is how was He her saviour?

Catholics believe that everyone was saved by Jesus dying on the cross and paying for the sins of us all. He died 2000 years ago and his payment is applied to us in the 21st century, which was 2000 years later, and that is quite some time ago. Catholics believe that baptism is the way that the price paid by Jesus is applied to us washing away all sin, and making us beautiful and sparkling clean in the Father’s sight, as well as children of him.

Now Mary’s sin, original sin, was paid for by her own Son, and also more importantly applied to her at her conception. This is why she is called the Immaculate Conception, which means she was conceived without first original sin.

The next question might be, then how could this original sin of her’s possibly be paid for before Jesus’ crucifixtion? Because He may do anything that He wills to be done. And He willed to preserve her from sin.

Now the question is why was she preserved?

He is the God/Man, AND A REAL man, AND REAL god, not just a man/prophet,
man/messiah, or divine robot, or any other incorrect combination. And Mary is the real
mother of God, not from eternity, but in time on this planet. And she is the HIGHEST saint
precisely because she is the MOTHER OF GOD, thru whom God was born, which no other title could possibly surpass which was granted by the will of God. And so “all men will call me blessed…”,(magnificat), and “hail Mary, FULL of grace”,(pregnate with God/Man).

In addition, Mary, being the mother of God, she would be at the top of all creation, even
higher than angels. Which means, power with her divine Son, as mother queen, similar to that in Cana of Galliee.

Having said this, I don’t know if you believe that when a person dies they go to heaven or to the other unmentionable place. Some believe that are in “deep sleep” , and I’m not sure just exactly what that entails. Catholics believe that what we die, we are judged and then we go up or down. The Catholic has a canon of saints which are those existing and living in heaven, base on their superior holy lives. Of course if this is not held then the whole idea of saints in heaven would mean that people are engaged in an illicite activity.

Hope your day is a happy one.​

For many are we, and broken we’ve come, but we will become one. (hymn)

 

[wed2catholic]

Hello,
I am new to this Catholic Forum. I would like to ask the help of Catholics who are very knowledgable about our faith and the Bible. I befriended a baptist on FB and have since sent out post regarding the Month of May and the Virgin Mary. I also posted some writings from St. Louis De Montfort about Mary “True Devotion To Mary” and have received some nasty comments from this baptist. I have tried to explain to her that Catholics do not “worship” Mary, as is the misconception of mostly all protestants, but that Catholics hold Mary in high esteem and revere her for her exalted state given to her by God to bear His Only Son. I received this response and ask your help in answering her with wisdom and kindness.
Here is what she said:

***"yes I agree that the lord searched the hearts of and chose (from among the kindred of David)a pure and innocent young earthly woman,Mary. let us not forget the "earthly "part.But let us also not for get that Mary did her part, she raised to… manhood, the savior of mankind.But i’d like to point out that Mary never fed 5000 souls from a few fishes and loves, Mary never taught common people to be “fishers of men” Mary never rose anyone from the dead nor has she risen from the dead,Mary never sat with thousands and taught how to pray(Jesus said: do not pray as the heathen do,repeating prayers over and over!)or how to love or how to live.

I feel the need at this point to add that the “catholic church” was not formed by Jesus when he said “upon this rock I shall build my church”( that is a total mis-interpretation of the words of Christ) because Peter the disciple was a “Baptist”, he was “Baptized by immersion” not by a sprinkling of water on his scull in his infancy without his freewill and testimony.Baptists are not “protest-ants”.We are not and have never been “protesting” anything, we trace our lineage right back to the discipleship after the actions of Jesus, when he requested of his cousin John, to be “baptized” by immersion.The “Catholic church” was not formed until nearly 400 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus! by the emperor Constantine to quell unrest among hostile factions of “Christian” leaning groups, and and appointing Rome the center of the governing body.

This was meant to be posted between my two other posts: EPHESIANS 2:18> For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the FATHER "***

Thank you to anyone who is willing to help me with this dialogue with this baptist. I’m sure there will be many more posts like this one.
God bless you all,
CEA

It will be a hard thing to convince her other wise. In my experience, many Baptists (as well as some other Protestants) are not open to hearing what they Catholic church actually teaches. They would rather cling to their false beliefs about it. (I know because I was like that at one time.) Unless they have a reason to be open-minded, they will probably not be. (This of course does not mean everybody will be this way.) It might help to start with challenging her history of the Baptist church. The Baptist church was not officially started until app. 1609. Most Baptists (although not all) recognize that. She probably does not really know much about church history, but she is just going on what someone told her. Maybe if she researched this and found it to be true, she would be more open to the truth about her church and yours.

 

[CEAbbott]

Martin Luther on Mary and Marian Veneration:

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.” (Sermon: Sept. 1, 1522)

God chose Mary out of all the women on the earth to bear his Son,
"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you… Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God." (Luke 1:28, 30 RSV)

Luke 1:46-49 (RSV), 'And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”

I guess not all generations (after 1517 A.D.) have decided to call Mary blessed:shrug:

Mary not only was** ‘overshadowed’ by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to God’s Son,** she raised our Savior, she was his first disciple, Jesus performed his first miracle at Cana after her intercession (John 2:3). Mary was with him during his three year ministry, was with him at the foot of the cross, and was with the other disciples at Pentecost and received the Holy Spirit (again!) **, and we can’t honor this woman???
**
1500 years of Christians honoring Mary and the other Christian saints was thrown to the wind after the Protestant Reformation. Very sad indeed!!!

Thank you CalCatholic! I actually had the good grace of calling some of your points out to her in my return post to her last evening. I also quoted most of the first responder (Nathan I believe?) in that response back to her. I see she has left me another message, but I have not read it yet. I’ll take a breather tonight and read it tomorrow. So many wonderful suggestions and advice here and I thank you all very, very much!
Have a blessed evening one and all!

 

[CEAbbott]

Nathan is right . This is very true what he says . And I too have found on youtube that many of my opponents seek help and get it from Pastors of their churches .Catholic means “universal” Jesus meant to have one church “Upon this rock I will build my church”
There are over 45000 protestant denominations (splinters off of the Catholic church)Baptist religion is one of those splinters formed around 1611 . As I stated before while Jesus was on earth he started to build the Catholic church long before the Baptist protestant denomination was built . Mary is mentioned as mother of our Lord in Luke chapter 1:43 "Mother of my Lord " She is the mother to the son which is the 2nd divine person in the holy trinity .The Holy Trinity Is three divine persons in 1 God . Jesus making up one of those divine persons . Mary being his mother is mother to us all . She is mentioned in Rev 12 . She is the woman with the moon at her feet crowned with twelve stars pregnant with Jesus and clothed with the son . She is alot more important then just a woman who gave birth to Jesus. She is also part of the great cloud of witnesses that surrounds us (see Hebrews 12:1 ) who is one of the holy ones who prays for us (see Rev 5:8) Please do not believe for a minute that your Baptist friend or the preacher are correct on this matter. They try and take advantage of Catholics who dont know scripture or history .Nathan is right as well . **Keep coming back if you have more challenges coming your way **. Frankie

Thank you Frankie,
I intend to do exactly that!

 

[po18guy]

It will be a hard thing to convince her other wise. In my experience, many Baptists (as well as some other Protestants) are not open to hearing what they Catholic church actually teaches. They would rather cling to their false beliefs about it. (I know because I was like that at one time.) Unless they have a reason to be open-minded, they will probably not be. (This of course does not mean everybody will be this way.) It might help to start with challenging her history of the Baptist church. The Baptist church was not officially started until app. 1609. Most Baptists (although not all) recognize that. She probably does not really know much about church history, but she is just going on what someone told her. Maybe if she researched this and found it to be true, she would be more open to the truth about her church and yours.

In particular, I find the claim that the Baptist denomination was founded by John the Baptist to be very curious, indeed, since John was clearly under the old covenant. If you believe in the One who came after John, why on earth would you retain a pre-Christian tradition that John used to prepare the way for Him? I’ve never heard a good explanation of that one.

 

[MarkBrown]

Hello,
I am new to this Catholic Forum. I would like to ask the help of Catholics who are very knowledgable about our faith and the Bible. I befriended a baptist on FB and have since sent out post regarding the Month of May and the Virgin Mary. I also posted some writings from St. Louis De Montfort about Mary “True Devotion To Mary” and have received some nasty comments from this baptist. I have tried to explain to her that Catholics do not “worship” Mary, as is the misconception of mostly all protestants, but that Catholics hold Mary in high esteem and revere her for her exalted state given to her by God to bear His Only Son. I received this response and ask your help in answering her with wisdom and kindness.
Here is what she said:

***"yes I agree that the lord searched the hearts of and chose (from among the kindred of David)a pure and innocent young earthly woman,Mary. let us not forget the "earthly "part.But let us also not for get that Mary did her part, she raised to… manhood, the savior of mankind.But i’d like to point out that Mary never fed 5000 souls from a few fishes and loves, Mary never taught common people to be “fishers of men” Mary never rose anyone from the dead nor has she risen from the dead,Mary never sat with thousands and taught how to pray(Jesus said: do not pray as the heathen do,repeating prayers over and over!)or how to love or how to live.

I feel the need at this point to add that the “catholic church” was not formed by Jesus when he said “upon this rock I shall build my church”( that is a total mis-interpretation of the words of Christ) because Peter the disciple was a “Baptist”, he was “Baptized by immersion” not by a sprinkling of water on his scull in his infancy without his freewill and testimony.Baptists are not “protest-ants”.We are not and have never been “protesting” anything, we trace our lineage right back to the discipleship after the actions of Jesus, when he requested of his cousin John, to be “baptized” by immersion.The “Catholic church” was not formed until nearly 400 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus! by the emperor Constantine to quell unrest among hostile factions of “Christian” leaning groups, and and appointing Rome the center of the governing body.

This was meant to be posted between my two other posts: EPHESIANS 2:18> For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the FATHER "***

Thank you to anyone who is willing to help me with this dialogue with this baptist. I’m sure there will be many more posts like this one.
God bless you all,
CEA

It appears this person holds to Baptist Successionism as taught by Landmarkist Baptist churches. Which are not mainstream Baptist Churches by Baptist Churches that are anti-intellect as a foundation. I speak as a former Baptist minister. Most Baptist reject landmarkism as false.

What she is quoting come directly from James Milton Carrol’s dubious work published in 1931 called Trail of Blood. A shoddy attempt at academic writing that has as its thesis that Baptists are the true Church. Carrol tries to link Baptist Churches directly back to Jesus in an unbroken line. The Catholic (and any other in fact) Church is corrupt. Carrol claims the Catholic Church tried to hunt down and murder all true christians (read baptists) in obedience to their master who is not Jesus. The typical Pope is anti-christ stuff. Interesting is that Carroll claimed as proof for his thesis the various groups opposed by the Catholic Church. Carrol claims Baptist are the heirs of Donatists, Paulicians, the Cathari, Montanist, Albiganses and Waldensians to name a few. Notice how this group of baptists claim they come from various heretical groups. Some are claimed only because they believed in immersion baptism.

Carrols lack of knowledge about basic church history, shoddy scholarship and intellectual dishonesty was revealed by James McGoldricks work Baptist Successionism. Again most Baptist reject the teachings of this silly booklet.

You are dealing with a cultic person. Dialogue with her on FB will not work. Prayer will.
You will not get her to believe anything about the Church by using Catholic sources. You must first get her to honestly review her beliefs. Ask her to read McGoldricks book, he is also a baptist pastor. Once this has happened, reading the book and an openness to thinking, you will be able to dialogue with her. If not, you will only go round and round with her, much like a tarbaby. Then you will need to decide on shaking the dust from your feet.

About the Virgin Mother. This lady makes claims she can not back up. Ask her to use scripture to show the Blessed Mother not teaching people how to pray, how to love or how to live among other things. She rejects CAtholic teaching on Mary and will cite Sola Scripture, but then goes on to make claims about Mary not based upon scripture. See her reasoning and logic.

I will pray for your success. As a Baptist pastor I ran into far too many of this sort and the experience is interesting to say the least.