Despite Catholic teachings, women religiously take the pill

[KostyaJMJ]

npatrol::bluelite: and what do you (and others) propose to do when you find out? How will this poll be conducted…??? Anonymously or will the Vatican Patriot Act be written up?

Just curious

I suppose I would send a team of albino monk assassins out to confiscate all of the contraceptive devices at their house.

no, just pointing out that the poll isn’t of much use in determining anything. Catholics are too large and diverse a group to lump together in one poll. It would be like a poll trying to determine how many Jews keep kosher without taking into account all of the various sects, denominations, and movements.

 

[mark_a]

Depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do you want people constantly confronting you about what they think are your sins? There’s a time, a place, and a way to accomplish everything.

Its quite interesting that people usually want more preaching done on things that they don’t do themselves…

Amen!!

Even listening to a homily about contraception during a packed mass is more than a little uncomfortable.

I believe pastors of large communities should have priests in residence, parochial vicars, retreat priests, etc. deliver these “uncomfortable” sermons regarding contraception. Then, when folks complain to him, all he need do is agree with and confirm his priest.

 

[Julianna]

So, you choose to try to **hide from God **in your bedroom (Gen 3:8)? You shouldn’t separate the Church from any part of your life. We should try to conform to God’s will in everything we do.

I realize you reject the authority of the Church because God left “human beings” in charge, but that is not what the Bible teaches us or what the Apostles taught us. Jesus gave the power of binding and loosing to the Church. If you wish to reject what He gave us, you are certainly free to do that. However, you shouldn’t mistakenly tell people that it is licit to do as a faithful Catholic.

I “choose” to hide from God? Not hardly. The “authority” I reject is that of “human beings” who follow the letter of the law in to every waking moment and private place of peoples lives. I know what “unitive” means…and I “know” what the Church (made of people) teaches about marital relations. However…I do not…have to make it public…and you have no right to know anything beyond that.

 

[Julianna]

Wow…paranoid much? Perhaps KostyaJMJ is just interested in knowing whether contraception is as widespread as the OP reported.

Yes it is. It’s not rocket science…just look around your Church at any given Mass. I believe several years ago on this forum someone found a statistic with a link. I do recall that number close to 95%.

Paranoid…not hardly. I find the hard right letter of the law witch hunts…quite un-nerving.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes it is. It’s not rocket science…just look around your Church at any given Mass.

Okay…I’ll just look for the “I contracept” tatoos on their foreheads.

Julianna:

I believe several years ago on this forum someone found a statistic with a link. I do recall that number close to 95%.

95% of what? That is what KostyaJMJ was asking - church-going Catholics or Catholics in the general population? Currently using contraception or “have used contraception?” There is a difference.

Julianna:

Paranoid…not hardly. I find the hard right letter of the law witch hunts…quite un-nerving.

Very paranoid. There is no witch hunt going on. No one is confiscating your contraception, locking you up, kicking you out of the Church, etc You are free to ignore Church teaching and believe that you can sin without consequence. No one is going to do anything about it. We allow anyone to choose hell, if that is what they prefer.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Yes it is. It’s not rocket science…just look around your Church at any given Mass. I believe several years ago on this forum someone found a statistic with a link. I do recall that number close to 95%.

Paranoid…not hardly. I find the hard right letter of the law witch hunts…quite un-nerving.

Now that is paranoid: nobody is suggesting an auto de fe or anything similar for dissident catholics. There is no witch hunt.

 

[rlg94086]

I “choose” to hide from God? Not hardly. The “authority” I reject is that of “human beings” who follow the letter of the law in to every waking moment and private place of peoples lives. I know what “unitive” means…and I “know” what the Church (made of people) teaches about marital relations. However…I do not…have to make it public…and you have no right to know anything beyond that.

I don’t know what you do in your bedroom, nor do I care. You have made your opinions public, and that is what I am commenting on. If you are following Church teaching, good for you. If you aren’t, then, while you are free to do so, I would recommend you change course and embrace Church teaching.

No one is asking you to make your actual practices public and no one from the Church enters your bedroom, so your comments are certainly paranoia.

BTW…we are supposed to follow God “every waking moment,” so I don’t understand what you mean by that comment. None of us do it…that’s what sin is all about…but we are supposed to strive for it.

 

[Julianna]

Okay…I’ll just look for the “I contracept” tatoos on their foreheads.
****Maybe you missed the threads discussing this a few years ago. It was posted to note the difference in family size 40 or so years ago and then today.

95% of what? That is what KostyaJMJ was asking - church-going Catholics or Catholics in the general population? Currently using contraception or “have used contraception?” There is a difference.

I believe I said it was quoted on a post a few years ago. And as I recall the hard liners thought it was a travesty.

Very paranoid. There is no witch hunt going on. No one is confiscating your contraception, locking you up, kicking you out of the Church, etc You are free to ignore Church teaching and believe that you can sin without consequence. No one is going to do anything about it. We allow anyone to choose hell, if that is what they prefer.

No need to confiscate anything…those days are over.

 

[Julianna]

I don’t know what you do in your bedroom, nor do I care. You have made your opinions public, and that is what I am commenting on. If you are following Church teaching, good for you. If you aren’t, then, while you are free to do so, I would recommend you change course and embrace Church teaching.

No one is asking you to make your actual practices public and no one from the Church enters your bedroom, so your comments are certainly paranoia.

BTW…we are supposed to follow God “every waking moment,” so I don’t understand what you mean by that comment. None of us do it…that’s what sin is all about…but we are supposed to strive for it.

That, I agree with.

 

[rlg94086]

Maybe you missed the threads discussing this a few years ago. It was posted to note the difference in family size 40 or so years ago and then today.

I agree that many Catholics use contraception and posted in this thread that it is only logical that it is widespread based on family size differences, so I’m pretty sure I didn’t “miss it.”

However, …

1. …earlier in the thread, we agreed that you can’t judge someone based on family size because some people have difficulty conceiving, have serious medical issues that cause them to use NFP to limit family size, etc.
2. …you can’t judge whether a family is using contraception or abstaining through the practice of NFP by looking at them.
3. …the request was for a more accurate percentage, so “looking around” at your own personal parish is hardly scientific. In fact, my parish has more large families and probably more NFP practitioners than most parishes, so looking around my parish would lead me to a 95% number.

That is why I at your comment “just look around your Church at any given Mass.” It was ignorant.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

NFP is only to be used for the spacing of children for just reasons (i.e. medical, financial, etc.).

Otherwise, the woman has to be prepared to be a brood mare? This implies that a healthy, mentally sound, financially secure couple isn’t to have sexual intercourse except with the aim of having children - though they can space them “for just reasons” - and if the first child comes along when she’s 23 and the last when she’s 43, that’s just what she has to accept??

 

[rlg94086]

Otherwise, the woman has to be prepared to be a brood mare? This implies that a healthy, mentally sound, financially secure couple isn’t to have sexual intercourse except with the aim of having children - though they can space them “for just reasons” - and if the first child comes along when she’s 23 and the last when she’s 43, that’s just what she has to accept??

I’m not clear on where you are confused. Yes, if the couple doesn’t have just reasons to space their children, then they will have more children if they are fertile and have sexual intercourse. Yes, if the first child “comes along” (actually conception is a little more complicated than that…please refer to a good textbook on the matter ) when she is 23 and the last when she is 43, then that’s what she “has to accept.”

My wife just found out that she is pregnant at age 44, are you recommending that we doesn’t have to accept it? That would be a sign that she isn’t mentally sound.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

(a) If a married couple did this faithfully (no pun intended) why would it not be permissable for the couple to use a condom the other days?

A good question. I am 68 and my wife is 69, long past menopause, and she had a hysterectomy in connection with the serious uterine cancer she now suffers from. The fact is that we never used any form of birth control in our lives (Mississippi Riverboat gamblers that we were, with 5 children as a result). So, we certainly have no intention to use birth control.

Yet, it has been suggested to me that if we used condoms (which we certainly don’t have any need for), even once for the “novelty of it,” or amusement, if you will, we’d be sinning because we wouldn’t be “open to life.” Sure, right - and we’re expected to take such advice seriously???

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Yes, if the first child “comes along” (actually conception is a little more complicated than that)

Do tell.

when she is 23 and the last when she is 43, then that’s what she “has to accept.”

Even if that meant a dozen kids… Not every Catholic couple wants to be like the Duggars.

My wife just found out that she is pregnant at age 44,

Join the club; our last came along when my wife was 42.

That would be a sign that she isn’t mentally sound.

I can’t speak for you, but I wondered the same about my situation when it happened to us, and we were in bad financial straits.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

if the first child “comes along”

Remember the old adage, “The second and third child take nine months, the first can come along at any time.”

No, I’m not speaking of myself, our first son came along well after nine months after we’d wed.

 

[anode]

I agree. I’m not sure where those figures are. Also, as I pointed out previously, the poll question posted was whether women “have used some form of contraception.” It is past tense. Many Catholic women who practice NFP used contraception previously, before understanding what the Church teaches. It is a flawed question, if you are trying to determine how many Catholic women use contraception.

My understanding is that Catholics use contraception at about the same rate as the general community. At least their birth rates do not differ significantly from the general community. This will vary, of course, depending on ethnic and social background. Immigrants, illegal or otherwise, have higher birth rates initially, but these approach that of the general population within one generation. Often after one unplanned birth, women employ contraception.

Half of unplanned pregnancies end in abortion. Many women pay for their own abortions. This is why sex education and contraception, in addition to abstinence, are so important.

 

[rlg94086]

Even if that meant a dozen kids… Not every Catholic couple wants to be like the Duggars.

As Catholics, we are to be open to life. Determining family size, spacing, etc. must be done with prayerful consideration and the understanding that it isn’t all up to you.

The question of how many children one ought to have is no different than other questions of selfishness. How big of a house should you own? How nice of a car should you own? Should we all take a vow of poverty? To paraphrase your Duggars statement - not every Catholic can live as Blessed Mother Theresa lived. What do you think Christ expects from us?

A just reason is something a couple determines through prayer and discussion with their priest. NFP is then used - but still with an openness to life. Our case is a good example. My wife had hypertension and gestational diabetes during her last pregnancy. I am also making between 1/4-1/2 of what I made 1-1/2 years ago. We should probably have been more diligent in our practice of NFP - we never took a class, so we were really just winging it. There were times when we were knowingly close to ovulation time, and a child is now the result.

Is my wife worried about stroking out during childbirth? Sure. Are there concerns about birth defects or Downs? Sure. Does it make a difference to the acceptance of God’s will? Nope. We will prayerfully prepare, do everything we can to keep my wife’s expected symptoms under control, and be filled with joy at the coming of a child.

Happy Mother’s Day to all mothers out there.

 

[rlg94086]

Half of unplanned pregnancies end in abortion. Many women pay for their own abortions. This is why sex education and contraception, in addition to abstinence, are so important.

The question here is about Catholics and the pill. In absolutely no manner should contraception be taught as an option for Catholics. To do so would be contrary to Church teaching. Certainly, couples should learn about NFP prior to marriage.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

The question of how many children one ought to have is no different than other questions of selfishness. How big of a house should you own? How nice of a car should you own?

It is not the same. Few people discuss how many houses they ought to own or how many autos.

A just reason is something a couple determines through prayer and discussion with their priest. NFP is then used - but still with an openness to life.

But, where is the bar set? How ill does a woman have to be before her health is a factor in deciding not to have another child? How much of a mental problem that she might have would advise against another child? What’s the dollar amount below which another child can’t be afforded? How serious must a previous child’s infirmity be to make caring for a new child too difficult?(Note that I said “another,” not “a.”)

 

[anode]

The question here is about Catholics and the pill. In absolutely no manner should contraception be taught as an option for Catholics. To do so would be contrary to Church teaching. Certainly, couples should learn about NFP prior to marriage.

Other posters on other threads, here or on phat, commented on how difficult it was to receive the NFP instruction–one saying that it cost $50 and was offered only in another city. I have no personal experience. I do know that NFP is of no value in a variety of medical conditions.