Despite Latino Pope, U.S. Hispanics Still Attracted to Evangelicalism

[ProVobis]

You need a stronger laity.

But the arguments always seem to turn toward priests and bishops to set the tone for the parishes and dioceses. You can’t have it both ways. Just sayin…

As for not having enough priests, or Spanish priests in this case, it all comes down to chicken-egg. I guess what I’m trying to say is that maybe laity have too much power already. Parishes are run by mostly the laity. The bi-lingual differences and wars didn’t suddenly pop up overnight or get created by the clerics.

All my opinion only.

 

[graciew]

. In other words, get busy.

Yes! Pianistclare for president!
fkpeople::ballspin::christmastree1::hammering::yyeess::angel1::newidea::newidea::newidea:

 

[7_Sorrows]

I think the situation is improving over time, but I believe there is a widespread contagion of false humility among the Catholic laity. “Me? I can’t do anything. I’m incompetent. I’m ineloquent. I’m married. I need to sit in my pew for an hour on Sunday and then run away faster than a krill in front of the gaping maw of a sperm whale”.

Priests cannot compete with evangelical ministers. They just can’t. Priests are highly educated & formed celibates. Evangelical ministers read the Bible for two years and then start preaching. It’s a numbers game, and priests lose by a wide margin.

You need a stronger laity. You need leaders within the laity community that can lead services when Mass is absent. You need catechists. You need drivers. You need food donors. You need, in short, lovers. Priests are not and cannot be seen as “the Church” otherwise she will be incapable of surviving the storms of false doctrine that come against her.

I prefer an Anglican or Catholic priest to most protestant ministers. There is no comparison to me.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I think the situation is improving over time, but I believe there is a widespread contagion of false humility among the Catholic laity. “Me? I can’t do anything. I’m incompetent. I’m ineloquent. I’m married. I need to sit in my pew for an hour on Sunday and then run away faster than a krill in front of the gaping maw of a sperm whale”.

Priests cannot compete with evangelical ministers. They just can’t. Priests are highly educated & formed celibates. Evangelical ministers read the Bible for two years and then start preaching. It’s a numbers game, and priests lose by a wide margin.

You need a stronger laity. You need leaders within the laity community that can lead services when Mass is absent. You need catechists. You need drivers. You need food donors. You need, in short, lovers. Priests are not and cannot be seen as “the Church” otherwise she will be incapable of surviving the storms of false doctrine that come against her.

I prefer an Anglican or Catholic priest to most protestant ministers. There is no comparison to me.

 

[johnnyc176]

I think the situation is improving over time, but I believe there is a widespread contagion of false humility among the Catholic laity. “Me? I can’t do anything. I’m incompetent. I’m ineloquent. I’m married. I need to sit in my pew for an hour on Sunday and then run away faster than a krill in front of the gaping maw of a sperm whale”.

Priests cannot compete with evangelical ministers. They just can’t. Priests are highly educated & formed celibates. Evangelical ministers read the Bible for two years and then start preaching. It’s a numbers game, and priests lose by a wide margin.

You need a stronger laity. You need leaders within the laity community that can lead services when Mass is absent. You need catechists. You need drivers. You need food donors. You need, in short, lovers. Priests are not and cannot be seen as “the Church” otherwise she will be incapable of surviving the storms of false doctrine that come against her.

Are you Catholic? Why say ‘you’ instead of ‘we’? Anyway…the Catholic Church needn’t become more protestant to attract protestants. The Truth should suffice. If you became a Catholic for any other reason than the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church, the Catholic Church, then yes I guess there’s a chance you will be disappointed. A protestant minister is just some guy or gal who is spouting off their version of the Bible. I’ll take the Eucharist. No one other than the priest can celebrate Mass

 

[pianistclare]

But the arguments always seem to turn toward priests and bishops to set the tone for the parishes and dioceses. You can’t have it both ways. Just sayin…

As for not having enough priests, or Spanish priests in this case, it all comes down to chicken-egg. I guess what I’m trying to say is that maybe laity have too much power already. Parishes are run by mostly the laity. The bi-lingual differences and wars didn’t suddenly pop up overnight or get created by the clerics.

All my opinion only.

To expect one person to solve all of a parish’s problems is not only unfair, but it doesn’t allow for us to be the hands and feet of Christ. We are called to do the work. We can’t take a passive role and work the priests to death. There is plenty that they alone can do.
But most of the roles outside of the Mass can and should be done by the laity.
WE have to feed the hungry, WE have to teach, WE have to care for the grieving, WE have to do the many things that must happen when the priest is called to a dying person’s bedside.
What is the bi-lingual war? I have no idea what you mean by this?
Our priest prays the Mass in Spanish as well as English. No war. Just serving the people of his parish.
Every pastor runs his parish. I know of NO parish where the priest allows the laity to run rough-shod over him. They have strong opinions and everyone in the chain knows who is the boss. Whatever “power” to make decisions I have as the DRE are given by him alone. And I run all major decisions by him, and he makes the final decision.
They don’t just hire people and then walk away from their desk. It doesn’t happen like that.
The most successful parishes have an army of laypeople running prayer groups, Bible study, RCIA, St. Vincent de Paul, Missionary work, food drives, clothing drives, catechesis, finances, and more. The priest however, has the final say.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I prefer an Anglican or Catholic priest to most protestant ministers. There is no comparison to me.

Me too. You can find good Protestant ministers but they are in the minority I think. Women preachers do make me uncomfortable. For me, clearly genuine faith and following of Gospel teaching are what make a member of the laity or the clergy effective as a Christian. No compromising or embarrassment. Across denominations even. You have to love God and his Word (not just “the Catholic Church” or the “Church of Christ” or whatever you are) I think it is a real turn off when a Catholic dislikes Protestants or a Protestant dislikes Catholics - I can’t see them as real Christians. The Protestants do have a great fire breathing raising the roof preaching tradition (black and white) that I personally love - when you combine it with Catholic (or High Anglican/Lutheran) solid learning and training, that’s the best. I have no problem whatsoever “borrowing” from Protestant witness. It’s great stuff. Just top it off with a knowledge and love of the original Church - and you’re home.

 

[ProVobis]

Our priest prays the Mass in Spanish as well as English.

Then why are they leaving?

 

[TK421]

…the Catholic Church needn’t become more protestant to attract protestants.

Service & zeal is not a protestant invention.

The Truth should suffice. If you became a Catholic for any other reason than the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church, the Catholic Church, then yes I guess there’s a chance you will be disappointed. A protestant minister is just some guy or gal who is spouting off their version of the Bible. I’ll take the Eucharist. No one other than the priest can celebrate Mass

This does not reflect the historical record of the Church. “The truth” unaccompanied by powerful works (the excellence of virtue) does not and will not suffice in winning the hearts of men.

Christianity did not conquer the Roman world exclusively with sound arguments & doctrine. It was won with rivers of blood & tears & sweat.

Latin American Catholicism is lagging behind evangelicals in its zeal and its works of mercy & in its strength of community. This isn’t theory: the proof of the pudding is in the eating of it. The Church is losing ground and will continue to lose ground until it wrestles with this problem.

 

[pianistclare]

Then why are they leaving?

Who said anyone is leaving my parish?

What the OP is really talking about is lack of catechesis and care.
People from Mexico don’t have a lot of religious ed background. They know what they know based on tradition.
But when the harsh realities of being in a new place where most of the folks resent their presence? That’s when they turn to the other denominations. Who are MORE than happy to send a bus round to bring them to church because the dad s working 7 days a week and has the car.

We spend a lot of time trying to “justify” these ministries to immigrants.
The fact that others are doing the work we should be doing…is justification enough. Either our church is the true church or we can just turn them over to others who will love them like Christ does.
What is it about the laity in other denoms that makes them so loving?
Guess it’s that Gospel message eh?
While people in our churches are worrying about whether or not the liturgy is to their liking or preference, life is happening. And we’re not really responding to the Gospel call that well.
Just sayin’.

 

[ProVobis]

Just serving the people of his parish.

That’s good but my local parish serves Hispanics outside of the parish. Some have to drive great distances to get there. (Spanish Masses aren’t that common in the diocese outside Chicago.) I can easily see why they might be drawn elsewhere to worship, to go to school, form bonds, etc.

 

[Sirach2]

Who said anyone is leaving my parish?

What the OP is really talking about is lack of catechesis and care.
People from Mexico don’t have a lot of religious ed background. They know what they know based on tradition.
But when the harsh realities of being in a new place where most of the folks resent their presence? That’s when they turn to the other denominations. Who are MORE than happy to send a bus round to bring them to church because the dad s working 7 days a week and has the car.

We spend a lot of time trying to “justify” these ministries to immigrants.
The fact that others are doing the work we should be doing…is justification enough. Either our church is the true church or we can just turn them over to others who will love them like Christ does.
What is it about the laity in other denoms that makes them so loving?
Guess it’s that Gospel message eh?
**While people in our churches are worrying about whether or not the liturgy is to their liking or preference, life is happening. And we’re not really responding to the Gospel call that well. **
Just sayin’.

Well said.

 

[ProVobis]

Who said anyone is leaving my parish?

Sorry. I removed my comment as I figured it probably wouldn’t affect your particular parish, which sounds far different than mine. My local parish cut the number of Sunday Masses from 4 to 2 in less than 3 years so the Anglos aren’t doing that much better.

Can’t argue with the rest of your post.

 

[ProVobis]

Latin American Catholicism is lagging behind evangelicals in its zeal and its works of mercy & in its strength of community. This isn’t theory: the proof of the pudding is in the eating of it. The Church is losing ground …

Statistics seem to bear this out. And the souls of perhaps 400,000,000 are at risk here.

 

[pianistclare]

Sorry. I removed my comment as I figured it probably wouldn’t affect your particular parish, which sounds far different than mine. My local parish cut the number of Sunday Masses from 4 to 2 in less than 3 years so the Anglos aren’t doing that much better.

Can’t argue with the rest of your post.

That’s awful about losing Mass options.
One wonders where it will all end? Our kids are going to pay the price.

 

[boar2roar]

Its simple. The Evangelical Churches actually provide the people serivces. Free English Classes, Daycare, Food, and Charity.

Catholic Parishes on the otherhand are more concerned with keeping the people Catholic through CCD, First Communion Classes, Church Renovations, its a very parish as an entity first, people who can donate money second, poor people last.

Evangelical Churches seem to be more willing to engage the poor and have clergy who don’t live a life that is disconnected from the experiences of the poor in that area. (Just look at how many Indian priests get placed in the Churches that are not big money makers for the dioceses, aka the poor neighborhoods)

While a Catholic Church is hitting up the parishoners to expand the church, the Evangelical church is merely scheduling more services and letting contributions go to corporal works of mercy.

So does the catholic church just not in Western or established countries.

I think catholic parishes are very complacent. They have enough parishioners (who cares if they are older and less and less young people) which makes them financially sound. Combined with a nice small group of laity usually also involved in church administration to form a sort of community. In short the problems are still in the future so talking about action is still more popular than actually doing something about it.

Not just the poor. The middle class is loosing more catholics than the poor in latin America in a lot of places. A lot of those fallen away in America aren’t dirt poor either but middle class people who stopped caring and seemingly no one in the church cared or noticed their absence either.

True architecture and infrastructure does seem to waste a lot of energy that could be used for other things. For all the talk of a new evangelization it is still do theoretical and do nothing that it might take much more losses until we stop talking and start acting.

 

[Peebo]

Even simpler.

The Evangelicals and other denoms go out there and help these people. They teach ESL, they give you a ride to the clinic, they hold job fairs, and when you’re in the hospital, they go there and hold your hand and make a lunch for your kids.

People go where they feel wanted.
That’s the long and short of it. Hispanics are emotional people. They thrive on “that person showed us love”.

No one wants to hear this, but it’s very true.
When the Pentecostal church sends literally thousands of pastors to South and Central America to minister to people, and the local priest is driving a battered vehicle to say Mass one a month in every village down there?
Guess who interacts with them on a personal level? Not the poor priest with no resources. He’s killin himself just to get the Sacraments to people. How many amazing homilies can he deliver by himself?

So when they arrive? That’s their same resource.
It’s really not because they don’t WANT to be Catholic.

Yep…all true…I would also add as a former Pentecostal that you are welcomed as soon as you enter the church…you probably also meet with your Wednesday night bible study group of friends before and after church…even people you don’t know will come up to you and greet you like a long lost brother…or sister…the Pastor or Pastors probably grab your hand and also welcome you…so yes…you really are made to feel as if you are loved as a fellow christian…in the Catholic church I attend most people arrive within a few minutes of Mass starting…then leave as soon as it’s over…I have a friend from Peru whose cousin became a priest…he told my friend the reason he became a priest was because priests got the best food…the best wine…and…women…my friend has never set foot in a Catholic church after that…I’m not knocking the Catholic church as I have been a faithful Catholic for decades and could never leave…however many Catholics in some of these poor countries in South America have probably experienced similar things what my friend did…so seeing the one on one caring and love from Pentecostals it is easy to understand why many are leaving the Catholic church…I really do hope that with Pope Francis the church will really become more Evangelical and reach out to these people in the love of Jesus and bring them back home to the Catholic church

 

[johnnyc176]

While people in our churches are worrying about whether or not the liturgy is to their liking or preference, life is happening. And we’re not really responding to the Gospel call that well.
Just sayin’.

Proper and reverent Liturgy is responding to the Gospel call and good catechisis to boot… Just sayin.

cardinalnewmansociety.org/CatholicEducationDaily/DetailsPage/tabid/102/ArticleID/4225/Cardinal-Burke-Reverent-Liturgy-Essential-to-Catholic-College-Education.aspx

“If in Catholic education the ultimate goal is to know Christ as deeply and as profoundly as possible, then it can’t be otherwise,” he said, recalling the wonderful liturgies on Catholic campuses until recent decades. On many Catholic campuses, traditional and reverent liturgy has given way to misguided innovations and musical variations that are thought to appeal to younger audiences.

Unfortunately many Catholics today accept the protestant notion of a personal relationship with Jesus, one that separates Jesus from His Church, the Catholic Church. How much more of a personal relationship can one have with Jesus than in the Sacraments especially in receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior? If you walk away from that than you are only concerned with entertainment value…video boards and donuts.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The Evangelicals and other denoms go out there and help these people. They teach ESL, they give you a ride to the clinic, they hold job fairs, and when you’re in the hospital, they go there and hold your hand and make a lunch for your kids.

People go where they feel wanted.
That’s the long and short of it. Hispanics are emotional people. They thrive on “that person showed us love”.

No one wants to hear this, but it’s very true.

Nevermind if no one wants to hear it. I believe you summed it up in a nutshell. Feeling wanted is something I think humans in general want. And they will go where they feel they are.

 

[TK421]

Johnny I think I’m unclear about your point of view. What do you think is the best way to respond to the rise of evangelicals in Latin America?

You know, admittedly, I suppose the Catholic Church isn’t necessarily doing anything “wrong” in its pastoral efforts. In the past, Protestantism and Catholicism were separated according to country. If you were Swedish, there was a 99% chance you were protestant. If you were Italian, there was a 99% chance you were Catholic. Nowadays, as globalization has occurred, traditionally Catholic countries are being permeated with evangelicals, and traditional protestant countries are being permeated with Catholics. Despite whatever woes exist from nominal Catholics dropping off the board in the US, the fact is that this country was historically a protestant stronghold before it also became heavily influenced by Catholicism as well.