Destroying Iran's Nuclear Capabilities

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Well I guess the “sharp shooters” had better start with the United States, since that would most definatly count as a “madman with a rocket launcher”.

A leader who tries to pick a fight with China most certainly counts as a “madman” (to just mention one “madman”).
Are you suggesting that foreign sharp shooters should take aim at the United States because we are a bunch of madmen focusing our attention on purposely killing innocents?

Please explain… I’m not sure I understand you. 🙂
 
The projected deaths of an invasion has grown with time. In part because of Truman’s concience. There is quite a weath of correspondance, etc. at the Truman library that is well worth reading.

Perhaps one of the best books on the subject is RACING THE ENEMY by Hasegawa.

On the subject at hand, it is worth noting that most of the resources we are talking about are very, very deep underground. So so-called ‘bunker busters’ would need to be used. This is presumably why the administration has spent millions refurbishing B52 bombers.

If we drop massive bunker busting bombs, than the number of civilian casualties will be very, very large. The irony is that while Iran’s regime if fiercy unamerican, it’s general population is not. However, if we kill thousands (or even hundreds of thousands) of civilians in an air campaign, that will change.

While it is true that Iran almost certainly does not have the resources to directly strike the US in return, they do have substantial assets in hot spots all over the region. So in addition to killing the pro democracy movement in Iran and extending the ganster regime’s reign by decades, we will also likely unleash decades of deadly campaigns against American interests around the world.

Frankly, I am still at a loss as to how overturning a secular Sunni strongman in a country with a Shia majority could have ever been anything but a huge gain in Iranian power, but we still seem to be intent on attacking the consequences of our mistakes instead of forging a viable international coallition to hold the Iranians in check and under pressure.
I’m not sure I totally agree with you, but I think you gave a reasonable and logical answer to this important question. You could very well be right.

If Iran successfully tests a nuclear weapon and continues using its death to Israel and death to U.S. rhetoric, does this change your opinion at all?

Blessings,
JB
 
Uh, bilop? Your last line was, uh, very official sounding.

I think it would be a mistake to believe anything is going to happen with Iran. When and if the US moves on this issue will depend on a lot more information than anyone here possesses. And even on the off chance that someone here knows a little more, you don’t write such things on a public message board.

God bless,
Ed
 
If we drop massive bunker busting bombs, than the number of civilian casualties will be very, very large.
I don;t see why people do not understand the horror of war and the terrible civilian casualties which inevitably ensue. I am opposed to any type of war today because it will inevitably result in innocent children being terribly hurt and killed.
Has anyone ever given any thought to diplomacy and some sort of peaceful resolution of conflicts ?
 
What is going on here? Nobody here gets to decide. The Pope isn’t going to be called by the Pentagon about dropping bombs. If I were the President, I’d place a friendly phone call to the leadership of North Korea, Iran and whoever else is on the enemies list and tell them: “Instant wipe out if you threaten us or our allies.” They sure aren’t going to call me to get my opinion.

God bless,
Ed
 
I’m not sure I totally agree with you, but I think you gave a reasonable and logical answer to this important question. You could very well be right.

If Iran successfully tests a nuclear weapon and continues using its death to Israel and death to U.S. rhetoric, does this change your opinion at all?

Blessings,
JB
FWIW, I certainly do not see the situation as simple. Iran appears to be a ‘gangster regime’ to me, largely at odds with its own people and even conceding horrific corruption itself.

The thought of a nuclear Iran is very unsettling to me indeed. That said, I think it is a mistake to get caught up in rhetoric and lose site of the larger picture.

Look at Iraq. The original arguments for preemptive invasion (WMDs and WMD programs, involvement in 9/11, etc.) have proven to be false. But even when there was some reasonable doubt, I was very concerned about removing a Sunni, secular strongman without a lot of active support in the region.

The Shia majority very predictably wanted a form of government closer to a shia theocracy than a secular democracy. This inevitably invited external support to Sunni militias from the Saudi’s, and external support to Shia militias from Iran. Without pre-emptive negotiation prior to the invasion, both are concerned with the shift in power in the region.

The thinking appears to have been that at least Iraq would be anchored by ‘friendlies’. But instead of Turkey and Pakistan helping to anchor a new Iraq, both appear to be having stability problems of their own as a result. Turkey because of Kurdish nationalism and Pakistan because Christian occupation of Iraq has greatly empowered the countries own Islamic extremists. Leaving us in the very difficult position of being entangled in a mutually dependant alliance with a country that also appears to be providing safe haven to the people who attacked us on 9/11 and also sharing nuclear secrets with other enemies.

I believe that Iran’s primary objectives are not global domination (we’re talking about a country with a GDP about the size of a small, eastern, US state and military spending not quite on par with Sweden). I think that the regime is principally motivated by self preservation. That is, continuation of power.

Viewed that way, current US policy does not make much sense. Sanctions are symbolic at best. The regime only buys US goods on the black market now, and has something like $6B to spend that way annually. Similarly, strong rhetoric appears to strengthen the regime, not weaken it. For example, their president was hugely unpopular at home because of his failure to follow up on a promise of small reforms, but his popularity has soared since we began demonizing him.

I am also still of a mind that Rumsfeld is wrong. You cannot win a military conflict on air power alone, short of nuking a nation back to the stone age. A pre-emptive strike of that side would quite likely trigger WW-III, and I am not sure that most of the world would not band against us. That would seem to leave strategic precision air strikes.

The only possible military outcome from such an attack is to setback, or delay a weapons program. This could be a very important strategic goal if a successful program outcome is imminent. But we also have to look at our longer term strategic interest. That means that the political outcome of such an attack needs to be considered. Bombs will kill lots of civilians, but they will not force a regime change. Look at Isreal’s recent bombing in Lebanon. It ended up strengthening Hezbolah, not weakening it.

So, without a truly imminet threat, our best result would come from first forging an alliance with players like China and Russia as well as Iran’s neighbors. This would both maximize the pressure behind the threat, and minimize the long term geo political damage should the threat actually have to be acted on. Unfortunately, our relationships with both China and Russia (which had previously been helpful in containing Iran) have soured of late. Similarly, we missed a good opportunity for more direct negotiations in 2001. Iran was actually quite helpful in our post 9/11 campaign against AQ and OBL in Afghanistan, but we did not really reciprocate, and actually turned up our own anti Iran rhetoric (axis of evil, etc.).

Again, it isn’t simple and I find it quite troubling. But I don’t think that our current knee jerk reaction of seeing every problem in the world as a ‘nail’ we can fix with our military ‘hammer’ has been particularly successful. If nothing else, it has been awfully hard on the hammer.
 
If I were the President, I’d place a friendly phone call to the leadership of North Korea, Iran and whoever else is on the enemies list and tell them: “Instant wipe out if you threaten us or our allies.” God bless,
Ed
God Bless?
God Bless an instant wipeout of women and children civilians who have nothing to do with your stupid politics… These are innocent people, trying to live a life of love and togetherness and you say God Bless to an instant wipeout of them? Have you ever heard of the Commandment:
Thou Shalt not kill.
 
The teaching before Vatican II was that the end does not justify the means.
While that was true, we faced two bad choices: invade Japan with millions of casualties where they were taught to give their lives in service for the emperor, or use a very destructive weapon.

Not an easy choice for Truman to make, but I believe he made the right one. War sometimes forces leaders to make very difficult decisions.
 
Are you suggesting that foreign sharp shooters should take aim at the United States because we are a bunch of madmen focusing our attention on purposely killing innocents?

Please explain… I’m not sure I understand you. 🙂
Take it how you want, or twist it how you like.

Im saying that perhaps we should clean up our own backyards before we start inspecting others.

I dont think that trying to pick a fight with China over a shot down spy plane that should not have been where it was in the first place can be considered a “sane” thing to do. I dont think people who act like this should be in charge of the destructive weapons that they are.

But then again I am totally amazed that the planet actually survived the Cold War with the “madmen” that were running things at the time and the policies/tactics that they had.
 
God Bless?
God Bless an instant wipeout of women and children civilians who have nothing to do with your stupid politics… These are innocent people, trying to live a life of love and togetherness and you say God Bless to an instant wipeout of them? Have you ever heard of the Commandment:
Thou Shalt not kill.
My father was a World War II veteran. While growing up in the 1960s, do you know what my government told me? Mutually Assured Destruction. If a nuclear war breaks out, we want the enemy (Russians) to know we will inflict as great, if not greater, harm on him than he will on us. Got that?

There was no vague philosophical talk. People actually built bomb shelters. There was a Civil Defense sign on our local gym. Most of our fathers were World War II veterans. And they kept adding warheads. It was soon possible for an ICBM to have not just one but three or more independently targetable warheads. You could hit a “military target” but miss by several miles and still wipe out an entire city. Imagine going to bed every night knowing, not in theory, but in fact, that Russian ICBMs could be on their way at any time, day or night. And you had minutes, not hours, to react.

I am against all forms of warfare but that threat is what kept the Russians at bay.

God bless,
Ed
 
Has anyone ever given any thought to diplomacy and some sort of peaceful resolution of conflicts ?
Exactly, why not give a chance to real friendly diplomacy, and not to diplomacy by treating with weapons and sanctions. Probably the first step in diplomacy toward Iran would be to agree that Iran really does have the right on a nuclear program. Don’t they? This step alone would rise up the possibility of success in this negotiations. Wouldn’t it? As a counter act Iran would agree with the right off Israels existence? In friendly negotiations everything possible. While in negotiations where the only rhetoric is force, and “my daddy is stronger” type of talk, nothing can be accomplished. People get defiant then. And I’m pretty sure that this is actually the case here, judging on the speeches heard in news from both parties. This will not accomplish anything.

As I said, what does a military strike against nuclear sites accomplish? The scientists who built it once, will build it also the second time. Nuclear technology is not something mysterious anymore…

If they don’t get to a solution peacefully in a friendly manner, I’m afraid that then Iran, or any other defiant country sooner or later will gain nuclear capability, but that time with a very unfriendly attitude.

And one more thing. For negotiation - people have to meet and to talk. American and Iranian president have to meet and then they should talk, - but without media coverage - because the medias are always searching for sensations and rhetoric of force. They should avoid it. So when did they meet last time?
 
My father was a World War II veteran. While growing up in the 1960s, do you know what my government told me? Mutually Assured Destruction. If a nuclear war breaks out, we want the enemy (Russians) to know we will inflict as great, if not greater, harm on him than he will on us. Got that?

There was no vague philosophical talk. People actually built bomb shelters. There was a Civil Defense sign on our local gym. Most of our fathers were World War II veterans. And they kept adding warheads. It was soon possible for an ICBM to have not just one but three or more independently targetable warheads. You could hit a “military target” but miss by several miles and still wipe out an entire city. Imagine going to bed every night knowing, not in theory, but in fact, that Russian ICBMs could be on their way at any time, day or night. And you had minutes, not hours, to react.

I am against all forms of warfare but that threat is what kept the Russians at bay.

God bless,
Ed
The irony is that the Russians felt the same way.

It would have been a real “fun” time to live/grow up in.
 
I am against all forms of warfare but that threat is what kept the Russians at bay.
So you have more faith in human nationalism than the teachings of Christ?

I think this is what biblical scholar Walter Wink calls “the Myth of Redemptive Violence”. We frequently say we believe in God and accept Christ’s message, but when push comes to shove we always turn to violence and earthly might.

Somehow, the fact that early Christians not only survived the direct persecution of Rome, a super power, they ultimately triumphed, becoming ‘the empire’, all without resorting to any violence whatsoever.

The idea that ‘the Russians’ were fellow children of the same God seems to get lost. Ignore the demonization and look at their perspective. We, not they, had just unleashed destruction on entire cities. If no other world power developed similiar weapons, who would hold us in check? What would stop us from pre-emptive war against the weak to impose our will?

Far fetched? Consider that the descendants of ‘the Russians’ have seen us launch a bloody pre-emptive war against a much weaker nation that we did not agree with…

Dehumanizing everyone outside your group is a common practice, probably going back to the very beginning of our emergence as a species. But that is not who God calls us to be.
 
Take it how you want, or twist it how you like.

Im saying that perhaps we should clean up our own backyards before we start inspecting others.

I dont think that trying to pick a fight with China over a shot down spy plane that should not have been where it was in the first place can be considered a “sane” thing to do. I dont think people who act like this should be in charge of the destructive weapons that they are.

But then again I am totally amazed that the planet actually survived the Cold War with the “madmen” that were running things at the time and the policies/tactics that they had.
Fair enough. However, I wasn’t trying to twist anything. I was merely hoping you would clarify you point, and you have.

Unfortunately no country at any time has ever been squeaky clean. Just because one is far from perfect, doesn’t mean they can’t point out or address issues elsewhere.

It appears that is was providential that total devastation was avoided during the Cold War. Hopefully we’ll all somehow make it through this rising mess.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. All the best!

Blessings,

JB
 
It would have been a real “fun” time to live/grow up in.
Uh, no. Though even small children started to figure out that ‘duck and cover’ was silly. For me the low point was Vietnam. In addition to challenging my Faith, and even my humanity, it left me with a permanent distrust of chickenhawks - folks who claim that warfare is essential, but somehow don’t see it as their job to fight it.

I am not a pacifist, I believe we are called to resist evil. But in the absense of shared sacrifice it is too easy to resort to evil condition of war. Think of terms like “cut and run”. The true ravages of war have been trivialized to the point where national machismo is an effective talking point.
 
Would destroying Iran’s Nuclear Capabilities with military force be justified?
Not only justified but the only rational thing to do. You don’t negotiate with those who have been carrying on a proxy war for decades, killing our people. You don’t negotiate with those who can sell a nuke to Al Qaeda and certainly would, or hand one off to Hezbollah. If Iran goes nuclear they have already siad what they would do. Do wait and see if a million lives are snuffed out in an instant? Terrorists regimes cannot threaten us with such technology. We should take out their facilities and set them back 15 to 20 years and then do it again then if they have not had a regime change.

Israel did it to Iraq in the 1980’s and thank God they did.

Negotiate with those sworn to your destruction in the name of a false religion. How naive. That is like suggesting we should have negotiated with Hitler.
 
FWIW, I certainly do not see the situation as simple. Iran appears to be a ‘gangster regime’ to me, largely at odds with its own people and even conceding horrific corruption itself.

The thought of a nuclear Iran is very unsettling to me indeed. That said, I think it is a mistake to get caught up in rhetoric and lose site of the larger picture.

Look at Iraq. The original arguments for preemptive invasion (WMDs and WMD programs, involvement in 9/11, etc.) have proven to be false. But even when there was some reasonable doubt, I was very concerned about removing a Sunni, secular strongman without a lot of active support in the region.

The Shia majority very predictably wanted a form of government closer to a shia theocracy than a secular democracy. This inevitably invited external support to Sunni militias from the Saudi’s, and external support to Shia militias from Iran. Without pre-emptive negotiation prior to the invasion, both are concerned with the shift in power in the region.

The thinking appears to have been that at least Iraq would be anchored by ‘friendlies’. But instead of Turkey and Pakistan helping to anchor a new Iraq, both appear to be having stability problems of their own as a result. Turkey because of Kurdish nationalism and Pakistan because Christian occupation of Iraq has greatly empowered the countries own Islamic extremists. Leaving us in the very difficult position of being entangled in a mutually dependant alliance with a country that also appears to be providing safe haven to the people who attacked us on 9/11 and also sharing nuclear secrets with other enemies.

I believe that Iran’s primary objectives are not global domination (we’re talking about a country with a GDP about the size of a small, eastern, US state and military spending not quite on par with Sweden). I think that the regime is principally motivated by self preservation. That is, continuation of power.

Viewed that way, current US policy does not make much sense. Sanctions are symbolic at best. The regime only buys US goods on the black market now, and has something like $6B to spend that way annually. Similarly, strong rhetoric appears to strengthen the regime, not weaken it. For example, their president was hugely unpopular at home because of his failure to follow up on a promise of small reforms, but his popularity has soared since we began demonizing him.

I am also still of a mind that Rumsfeld is wrong. You cannot win a military conflict on air power alone, short of nuking a nation back to the stone age. A pre-emptive strike of that side would quite likely trigger WW-III, and I am not sure that most of the world would not band against us. That would seem to leave strategic precision air strikes.

The only possible military outcome from such an attack is to setback, or delay a weapons program. This could be a very important strategic goal if a successful program outcome is imminent. But we also have to look at our longer term strategic interest. That means that the political outcome of such an attack needs to be considered. Bombs will kill lots of civilians, but they will not force a regime change. Look at Isreal’s recent bombing in Lebanon. It ended up strengthening Hezbolah, not weakening it.

So, without a truly imminet threat, our best result would come from first forging an alliance with players like China and Russia as well as Iran’s neighbors. This would both maximize the pressure behind the threat, and minimize the long term geo political damage should the threat actually have to be acted on. Unfortunately, our relationships with both China and Russia (which had previously been helpful in containing Iran) have soured of late. Similarly, we missed a good opportunity for more direct negotiations in 2001. Iran was actually quite helpful in our post 9/11 campaign against AQ and OBL in Afghanistan, but we did not really reciprocate, and actually turned up our own anti Iran rhetoric (axis of evil, etc.).

Again, it isn’t simple and I find it quite troubling. But I don’t think that our current knee jerk reaction of seeing every problem in the world as a ‘nail’ we can fix with our military ‘hammer’ has been particularly successful. If nothing else, it has been awfully hard on the hammer.
Well said. I essentially agree with all these points.

Assuming Iran was to attack Israel directly (whether it was in retaliation or for some other reason), how do you feel we should handle that?

I’m sure much of what you said already applies.

I agree that military strikes right now might be disastrous, and should be avoided unless it’s a desperate last resort.

JB
 
Not only justified but the only rational thing to do. You don’t negotiate with those who have been carrying on a proxy war for decades, killing our people. You don’t negotiate with those who can sell a nuke to Al Qaeda and certainly would, or hand one off to Hezbollah. If Iran goes nuclear they have already siad what they would do. Do wait and see if a million lives are snuffed out in an instant? Terrorists regimes cannot threaten us with such technology. We should take out their facilities and set them back 15 to 20 years and then do it again then if they have not had a regime change.

Israel did it to Iraq in the 1980’s and thank God they did.

Negotiate with those sworn to your destruction in the name of a false religion. How naive. That is like suggesting we should have negotiated with Hitler.
You might be right Melchior. I’m just not sure about the timing of this all. It’s not like we can have tremendous faith in our intelligence community at this point.
 
Negotiate with those sworn to your destruction in the name of a false religion. How naive. That is like suggesting we should have negotiated with Hitler.
We should have, when he was a containable evil. We figured it was none of our business. Many Americans even admired his program of eugenics.

BTW If airstrikes were so effective against Iraq in the '80s, why did we invade it twice in the 90’s and why are we spending $2.4T invading it now?

Perhaps a better approach would have been to not adopt Saddam as a friend of convenience as a shortcut to self interest. That tends to work out badly in the long run, like OBL, Pakistan, and, of course, the Shaw of Iran…
 
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