Detachment and disconnection: same thing?

[mercytruth]

mercytruth

But St John is speaking about the disordered attachments of these things, which we must die to. But as we grow in Christ, the true beauty of these things, as designed by God, shows forth.

For instance. On a hot day when we become thirsty, the pleasure of the first sip of a cool glass of water, is not a disorder, but what God has given us. However, if the cool glass of water is seen as a god, as in pantheism, then it’s a disorder.

Same is with food. We can enjoy the flavor of a well cooked meal, without becoming attached to fancy foods to the point of being obsessed with them for the later is a disorder.

Well the Church defines what lust of the flesh is, and this is a disorder in that it seeks to pleasure the flesh through immoral means. Pride too, is self-serving of self in putting a false image of oneself in order to impress others. It’s a disorder of the lower soul as a result of our fallen state.

But this has nothing to do with enjoying television for entertainment, or enjoying the company of other people.

Detachment is separating from the appetites which satisfies the self in place of loving God. To love the beauty of a sunset because it gives glory to God, is not a disorder, but a realization of God’s power and magnificence.

When I was discerning the deaconate, the vocation directer emphasizes the priorities the Church places on deacons. God, family, job and Church, were the directed order of our priorities. Those who put Church before family, are not living as God intended them to live, for they were called first to be husband/wives and then parents.

I’ve seen many people in my life, who ended up divorced because they put their religion ahead of their spouses and families. They’re faith eventually was shattered as a result.

Jim

I think we have a different interpretation of St. John of the Cross. A cool glass of water is God’s creation. Soda pop is man’s creation. Food as it is grown naturally and prepared naturally is God’s creation. Junk food is man’s creation. Marriage relations within the sacrament of marriage is God’s creation. Pornography and all that caters to it, is man’s creation.

So when we read St.John of the Cross in light of St. John of the Apostle who says,

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world is passing away with the lusts thereof, but he that does will of the Father shall abide forever."

There is no such thing as an ordered attachment, or detachment to ‘the things of the world’
.
Why? Because they are not of the Father. On the other hand, all that God has created is good, and one can have detachment or ordered attachment to these.

God’s peace

micah

 

[TrueLight]

To bring something to the entertainment sub-thread I just want to say that I don’t watch TV because I find it boring (maybe I’ll watch a film now and then). However, I spend **a lot **of time on the internet - here on CAF and I follow a number of Catholic blogs. That keeps me informed and gives me a sense of fellowship that I desperately need, since I don’t know other Catholics here. I do wonder if I should spend less time doing this because I am most certainly very attached to you CAF people

I am definitely attached to the internet. I feel lost without it.

Having said that I do have to be online a lot for my job and side business, so it’s hard to distinguish between pleasure and work.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think we have a different interpretation of St. John of the Cross. A cool glass of water is God’s creation. Soda pop is man’s creation. Food as it is grown naturally and prepared naturally is God’s creation. Junk food is man’s creation. Marriage relations within the sacrament of marriage is God’s creation. Pornography and all that caters to it, is man’s creation.

So when we read St.John of the Cross in light of St. John of the Apostle who says,

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world is passing away with the lusts thereof, but he that does will of the Father shall abide forever."

There is no such thing as an ordered attachment, or detachment to ‘the things of the world’
.
Why? Because they are not of the Father. On the other hand, all that God has created is good, and one can have detachment or ordered attachment to these.

God’s peace

micah

Try understanding the correct interpretation of 1 John 2:15

From the footnote in the NAB;

The world: all that is hostile toward God and alienated from him. Love of the world and love of God are thus mutually exclusive; cf. Jas 4:4.

As James 4:4 puts it

Adulterers!* Do you not know that to be a lover of the world means enmity with God? Therefore, whoever wants to be a lover of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Loving being with family or friends or the love of seeing the beauty of a mountain scene or a butter-fly, is not what John is referring to. Also, the word love here isn’t the agape love we’re to have for God. It’s a lesser level of love, or more accurately, appreciation.

Ordered attachment is the the desire for food or sleep, which are the basic needs for life.

Disordered, is when you place an attachment before God, i.e., sleeping in rather than going to Mass on Sunday.

Jim

 

[mercytruth]

Try understanding the correct interpretation of 1 John 2:15

From the footnote in the NAB;

As James 4:4 puts it

Loving being with family or friends or the love of seeing the beauty of a mountain scene or a butter-fly, is not what John is referring to. Also, the word love here isn’t the agape love we’re to have for God. It’s a lesser level of love, or more accurately, appreciation.

Ordered attachment is the the desire for food or sleep, which are the basic needs for life.

Disordered, is when you place an attachment before God, i.e., sleeping in rather than going to Mass on Sunday.

Jim

Yes, agreed. The way of the cross, the way of denying oneself is not possible according to St. John of the Cross without going through the dark night of the senses. It is a grace from God, but it requires our cooperation. Even if an individual does go through the dark night of the senses, one is still not completely purged from one’s attraction to the things of the world.

If my memory serves me correctly, St. John of the Cross equated the things of this world, and/or mammon with the harlot of Babylon

God’s peace

Micah

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, agreed. The way of the cross, the way of denying oneself is not possible according to St. John of the Cross without going through the dark night of the senses. It is a grace from God, but it requires our cooperation. Even if an individual does go through the dark night of the senses, one is still not completely purged from one’s attraction to the things of the world.

If my memory serves me correctly, St. John of the Cross equated the things of this world, and/or mammon with the harlot of Babylon

God’s peace

Micah

Keep in mind, St. John is talking about the disordered things, or to put it another way, the things that lead us to sin rather than to God.

In Christ Jesus
Jim

 

[mercytruth]

Keep in mind, St. John is talking about the disordered things, or to put it another way, the things that lead us to sin rather than to God.

In Christ Jesus
Jim

Yes, those of us who are led by covetousness, or the desires of our appetites will suffer harm in two ways, because they deprive us of God’s Spirit, and we will be tormented to the degree in which we are led by our appetites. As St. John of the Cross says:

The more intense is the desire, the greater is the torment which it causes the soul. So that the torment increases with the desire; and the greater are the desires which possess the soul, the greater are its torments; for in such a soul is fulfilled, even in this life, that which is said in the Apocalypse concerning Babylon, in these words: Quantum glorificavit se, et in deliciis fuit, tantum date illi tormentum, et luctum. (Apocalypse xviii, 7). That is: As much as she has wished to exalt and fulfil her desires, so much give ye to her torment and anguish.

The Ascent of Mt. Carmel, Book 1, Chapters 6, paragraph 1, & chapter 7, pargraph 2.

God’s peace

micah

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Yes, agreed. The way of the cross, the way of denying oneself is not possible according to St. John of the Cross without going through the dark night of the senses. It is a grace from God, but it requires our cooperation. Even if an individual does go through the dark night of the senses, one is still not completely purged from one’s attraction to the things of the world.

I’ve always thought that saints such as St. John experience things that most of us will go through in purgatory.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I am definitely attached to the internet. I feel lost without it.

Just the other day I was desperately waiting for my husband to leave home so I could go online. No reason to hide at all, but I am embarassed by my little addiction LOL.

In all seriousness, I wonder if spending less time on the internet would help me with my feelings of anger towards the world. Because we never get just the news: it is always accompanied by someone’s opinion, and if the source is a forum or a blog you get a number of comments too. This doesn’t help me at all.

 

[mercytruth]

I’ve always thought that saints such as St. John experience things that most of us will go through in purgatory.

Yes, this is true, as did St.Theresa of Avila, as did St. Faustina, too.

This is called the dark night of the spirit, which very few enter into. I do think when Jesus said that if we are to be his disciples we must deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow him, he was speaking to all of us. From the perspective of St. John of the Cross, this is the dark night of the soul.

So when Jesus prays on Passover night to his Father that we would be one even as he and the Father are one, I believe that the only path to union with our Father and with His Son is through the cross of self denial.

God’s peace

Micah

 

[mathematoons]

My mom is happy that I’m working on being detached, because it means I’m working on being less angry at the secularization of our culture. Reading the Bible, the saints, and the saints’ favorite books (the book The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of Future Life was the favorite of St. Therese of Lisieux, and it’s really helping me, as is Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence; both can be found in PDF form online) really helps.

Of course, I’m not as successful at this as I would like to be. But I’m fighting a lot of little battles. I’m working on not thinking about things that are not part of my life, cutting out all things that remind me of such things, letting things go after they happen, not worrying, not letting myself be unhappy about an outcome I didn’t want, etc. A big one is to quit thinking about the culture war and just fight it by evangelizing (in fact, all the liberalism and all the fighting against it on CAF is the major reason I have mostly quit posting).

The more I can detach, the happier I am. I don’t really need anything outside of God, not even other people. There are no needs; our only need is to do God’s will. Even food, water, shelter, etc. are just to help us do that. It’s nice to have them, but if God decides to take them back, it will be for my own good.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Good for you.

Keep praying.

Jim

 

[Sirach2]

This passage from 2 Tim. 2: 3-7 has made a deep impression me, so I hope that if you are being led in a similar manner, it may speak to you.
Bear your share of hardship along with me like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. To satisfy the one who recruited him, a soldier does not become entangled in the business affairs of life. Similarly, an athlete cannot receive the winner’s crown except by competing according to the rules. The hardworking farmer ought to have the first share of the crop. Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything

And from the USCCB commentary on this scripture:
This passage manifests a characteristic deep concern for safeguarding the faith and faithfully transmitting it through trustworthy people. Comparisons to the soldier’s detachment, the athlete’s sportsmanship, and the farmer’s arduous work as the price of recompense, emphasize the need of singleness of purpose in preaching the word, even at the cost of hardship, for the sake of Christ
St. Paul is encouraging Timonthy with his evangelization, but we also may take to heart the singleness of purpose that should be our focus.