Detachment... Holy Indifference

[Sirach2]

TimothyH:

Something which I try to keep in perspective here, and that is the fact that I am not St John of the Cross, St. Therese of Avila, nor some great mystic who has spent a lifetime in spiritual persuits.

Indeed, nor are the rest of us, but it is easy to dismiss what they wrote under the guise of, “Well, I’m no saint!” (Which saint wrote that? ] The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, and yes, the path can be strewn with thorns. But to never begin at all in the fear of stumbling along the way is not good, either.

St. Francis de Sales wrote beautifully for lay persons who think perfection lies in extreme mortifications. He strongly advised against this, but urged us to practice those things that mortify our selfishness, pride, and inordinate desires. These are simply scriptural admonitions that Christ Himself taught us.
“When you go to a banquet, do not seek the place of honor, but take the lowest place.” Etc.

What comes to mind here is the hymn we sing from St. Francis.
“O Master, grant that I may never seek, so much to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand, to be loved, as to love with all my soul.”

These hidden inner virtues do require detachment, most of all from “SELF” - our biggest enemy.

 

[Denise1957]

I was reading in St Teresa’s Book of her Life (Chapter 20), about the rapture experience. This post Is not about raptures, but about something she said when it comes to detachment.
She says:

I have always wondered if practicing detachment can cause one to not get any pleasure out of living. There was a thread on CAF, where a poster pretty much said that one should not take pleasure in leisure activities. I’m pretty sure our Lord does not want us to live a life in monochrome, but want us to experience the beautiful color of the world he created.

What do you all think?

My understanding is that the Church has always encouraged leisure activies, so as to relax the mind. This is something that pertains to Sundays especially, which are to be a day of rest, after meeting family or (if needed) work obligations.

 

[Denise1957]

Regarding the issue of detachment, I don’t think that the Church teaches that we must have this for salvation. I’m thinking of the example of St. Terese of the Little Flower. She was absolutely attached to Our Lord, and to everyone around her, especially her dear family, who she found difficult to leave when she went to the convent. And she remained attached to all around her, it’s just who she was. She loved people. So I don’t think that Catholics are required to develop this type of detachment. It is but one way to go about spiritual life.

 

[Sirach2]

Hi Denise,

Have you read the Story of a Soul? I recall many incidences where St. Theresé did violence to herself in order to attain detachment. Yes, she loved her family and sisters in the Order very much. We know it is the second in importance regarding the two great commandments Jesus gave us, but I don’t think anyone has advocated detaching from these loves.

However, being a Carmelite, our studies have been extensive with the writings of these saints. Notably, St. Teresa of Avila spent a good part of her teachings stressing the importance of detachment in order to arrive at union with God. I suppose it depends on how earnest one is with respect to reaching this summit. True, it is NOT required for salvation, but it IS required if one wishes to attain to perfection. The choice is ours.

 

[JReducation]

My understanding is that the Church has always encouraged leisure activies, so as to relax the mind. This is something that pertains to Sundays especially, which are to be a day of rest, after meeting family or (if needed) work obligations.

Rest and recreation are very much a part of Catholic Spirituality. You’re absolutely right. If we look at the Spiritual Masters, they teach this. Benedict required just a few hours of manual labor from his monks. Just enough to keep the mind busy. When they were not praying or working, they could sleep, play tennis, golf, swim, read, write or go bird watching or whatever else they enjoyed. Even Mother Teresa’s sisters work only a few hours per day and take two days off per week, Sunday and a weekday. Their work is very hard and intense. They need a break or they will not be there to serve for very long. The same holds true for parents and other people.

Regarding the issue of detachment, I don’t think that the Church teaches that we must have this for salvation. I’m thinking of the example of St. Terese of the Little Flower. She was absolutely attached to Our Lord, and to everyone around her, especially her dear family, who she found difficult to leave when she went to the convent. And she remained attached to all around her, it’s just who she was. She loved people. So I don’t think that Catholics are required to develop this type of detachment. It is but one way to go about spiritual life.

Actually, these are not attachments. Detachment is required of all believers. The rule of detachment is very simple. We give to God whatever he takes and we accept whatever he gives.

We see it played out for us in the scriptures.

Abraham is asked to sacrifice Isaac.

Moses is asked to lead a people whom he does not want to lead, because he feels unqualified.

David does great penance for his sin.

Mary surrenders to Divine Providence, even though she does not fully understand.

John the Baptist says that he must decrease and he sends his disciples to join Jesus

Jesus washes the feet of his disciples

Jesus prays, not my will but your will be done

St. Paul tells us that Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, but he took the form of a slave.

As we look back through the scriptures, detachment is revealed to us as essential to discipleship and sonship. It’s an essential part of a covenant relationship with God. Many people get all confused with the term.

I like “Give God what he takes and accept what he gives.” Another way of saying it is, “Let go of anything that is not God and is not necessary in order to reach God.” If you have it you have it, but it you no longer have it, you don’t need it.

Detachment is an internal disposition that has an external expression. Even with Therese, as much as she loved her family, she was willing to give them up, if necessary, to follow the Lord into Carmel. There is that internal disposition again.

She very much wanted to be a saint, but knew that she did not have the gifts for big sacrifices. She detaches from that notion and accepts her situation. She can achieve sanctity through little things with great love. What she did not realize was that the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. The whole of her life was one heroic act of sacrifice and love. This is probably the highest level of detachment, when you are not even aware of how far you’re growing in holiness, because the most important thing to you is to love God and neighbor. Therefore,you’re not walking around with a ruler measuring your progress in holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Denise1957]

Rest and recreation are very much a part of Catholic Spirituality. You’re absolutely right. If we look at the Spiritual Masters, they teach this. Benedict required just a few hours of manual labor from his monks. Just enough to keep the mind busy. When they were not praying or working, they could sleep, play tennis, golf, swim, read, write or go bird watching or whatever else they enjoyed. Even Mother Teresa’s sisters work only a few hours per day and take two days off per week, Sunday and a weekday. Their work is very hard and intense. They need a break or they will not be there to serve for very long. The same holds true for parents and other people.

Actually, these are not attachments. Detachment is required of all believers. The rule of detachment is very simple. We give to God whatever he takes and we accept whatever he gives.

We see it played out for us in the scriptures.

Abraham is asked to sacrifice Isaac.

Moses is asked to lead a people whom he does not want to lead, because he feels unqualified.

David does great penance for his sin.

Mary surrenders to Divine Providence, even though she does not fully understand.

John the Baptist says that he must decrease and he sends his disciples to join Jesus

Jesus washes the feet of his disciples

Jesus prays, not my will but your will be done

St. Paul tells us that Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, but he took the form of a slave.

As we look back through the scriptures, detachment is revealed to us as essential to discipleship and sonship. It’s an essential part of a covenant relationship with God. Many people get all confused with the term.

I like “Give God what he takes and accept what he gives.” Another way of saying it is, “Let go of anything that is not God and is not necessary in order to reach God.” If you have it you have it, but it you no longer have it, you don’t need it.

Detachment is an internal disposition that has an external expression. Even with Therese, as much as she loved her family, she was willing to give them up, if necessary, to follow the Lord into Carmel. There is that internal disposition again.

She very much wanted to be a saint, but knew that she did not have the gifts for big sacrifices. She detaches from that notion and accepts her situation. She can achieve sanctity through little things with great love. What she did not realize was that the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. The whole of her life was one heroic act of sacrifice and love. This is probably the highest level of detachment, when you are not even aware of how far you’re growing in holiness, because the most important thing to you is to love God and neighbor. Therefore,you’re not walking around with a ruler measuring your progress in holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Sorry, but I disagree. Detachment from things around us is not required for salvation. Where is specific Church teaching saying this? Quotes from Franciscans do not count, for me.

 

[TrueLight]

Sorry, but I disagree. Detachment from things around us is not required for salvation. Where is specific Church teaching saying this? Quotes from Franciscans do not count, for me.

Detachment from riches, at least is mentioned in the CCC, second edition.

2544 Jesus enjoins his disciples to prefer him to everything and everyone, and bids them “renounce all that [they have]” for his sake and that of the Gospel.335 Shortly before his passion he gave them the example of the poor widow of Jerusalem who, out of her poverty, gave all that she had to live on.336 The precept of detachment from riches is obligatory for entrance into the Kingdom of heaven.

I haven’t had a chance to really research this.

 

[Denise1957]

Hi Denise,

Have you read the Story of a Soul? I recall many incidences where St. Theresé did violence to herself in order to attain detachment. Yes, she loved her family and sisters in the Order very much. We know it is the second in importance regarding the two great commandments Jesus gave us, but I don’t think anyone has advocated detaching from these loves.

However, being a Carmelite, our studies have been extensive with the writings of these saints. Notably, St. Teresa of Avila spent a good part of her teachings stressing the importance of detachment in order to arrive at union with God. I suppose it depends on how earnest one is with respect to reaching this summit. True, it is NOT required for salvation, but it IS required if one wishes to attain to perfection. The choice is ours.

Hi Sirach,
It’s been awaile since I’ve read that book about St. Therese. I do not recall where she did violence to herself in order to attain detachment. She did want to become detached from worrying about what others thought of her. She did little sacrifices for this end. Little things which were not noticed by anyone but God.

Those who want to make an obvious display of their “detachment” are sometimes attached to what others think of them. That’s attachment, too.

Also, those in convent or monestery have the time to develop detachment. The reason it is not required for salvation is that there are Catholics who are not religious. There are laypersons who are Catholics, and as such, must care for families, and sometimes many children. We needn’t be detached from persons or things for salvation.

The life of st. Margaret Clitherow is an example. She was a young mother who so loved her Catholic faith, and she was quite emotional and very attached to her dear husband, who was not Catholic. She was martyred because she refused to denounce her Catholic faith. She was attached to things of this world, but she had an unmovable attachment too for Our Lord and His Church, too.

Our Lord, Our Lady, and especially our guardian angels are not detached or indifferent towards us. Where would we be if they were?

 

[Sirach2]

Hi Denise,

For brevity’s sake, I won’t print the book, but I think this incident will point to St. Therese’s struggle to attain detachment, even from those she loved naturally.

How well I remember the violent temptations I had when I was a postulant, to make my way into your room, just for the pleasure it gave me; a crumb of comfort now and again! I had to pass the business-room at full speed, and cling tight to the banisters. Couldn’t I go and ask leave to do this and that? Such thoughts crowded into my mind; I can’t tell you, Mother, what a lot of excuses occurred to me for getting my own way. And how grateful I am now that I kept myself in hand during those early days! There’s a reward promised to people who fight bravely, and I’m glad to say I’ve got it already.

I don’t find it necessary any longer to turn away from any consolation my heart craves, because I made up my mind to love our Lord above anything else, and my soul is now fixed in that resolve. I find, to my great delight, that when you love Him, the capacities of your heart are enlarged so that your feelings towards those who are dear to you are infinitely more tender than they would have been if you have devoted yourself to a selfish kind of love which remains barren.

 

[TimothyH]

Indeed, nor are the rest of us, but it is easy to dismiss what they wrote under the guise of, “Well, I’m no saint!” (Which saint wrote that? ] The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, and yes, the path can be strewn with thorns. But to never begin at all in the fear of stumbling along the way is not good, either. .

All of what you are saying is true, and we must try.

I am saying is that God’s grace has to be present first. Without God’s grace, we can do nothing. Grace must not be ignored.

And I am saying that for some, including myself, it is not a matter of violent self-denial. It is simply a matter of asking God to take away our carnal desires, and through prayer, and docility to the holy spirit, one day we wake up to find that we no longer desire that thing, that food, or that fill in the blank. We wake up one day to find that we are detached from worry and anxiety and lust for that particular created thing, and that we are free to pick it up and use it and then put it away and not use without fear and anxiety, at our command, rather than having it control us. Little by little, with great patience, God gives me the ability to decide in perfect freedom, when and how to use created things.

For me it has always been this way. I have prayed for God to help me with something, and through patience and humilty, have been granted my wish. Every time I try to force things through my own efforts, I wind up miserable, defeated.

I don’t mean to sound contrary. That is not my intent. For me, self denial must be practiced in a very gentle way. Fr. Jaques Phillipe, a member of the Community of the Beatitudes which is based on Carmelite spirituality, wrote a fantastic little book titled "In the School of the Holy Spirit"" which teaches docility to the Holy Spirit - how to foster promptings of the Holy Spirit and how to recognize those promptings - little nudges - as coming from God and be obedient to them.

Moreover, one small act of obedience to God can sometimes cause us to make more progress spiritually than years of effort according to our own plans. Fidelity to small graces draws down bigger ones.
—In the School of the Holy Spirit, p.59

His books are a few dollars each and each is small, no more than 90 or 100 pages or so. They are wonderful little spiritual pills, full of humilty and gentlenss and great wisdom. I have done things that I never thought possible, or never thought to do in the first place, things which change people’s lives, through simple obedience to a small whisper or a nudge from God.

-Tim-

 

[Denise1957]

Hi Denise,

For brevity’s sake, I won’t print the book, but I think this incident will point to St. Therese’s struggle to attain detachment, even from those she loved naturally.

It’s not surprising that she made up her mind to love the Lord above all else. But where does she say that she was detached from those around her? She mentions that when you love the Lord above all else, your capacities are so enlarged so that the feelings towards those who are dear to you are infinitly more tender than they would have been if you have devoted yourself to a selfish kind of love which remains barren.

Does tenderness toward those whom we love equate with detachment and indifference? I’m not making that connection. In fact, she seems to be saying the opposite: When you put Love for Our Lord first, you have greater love for those around you. She does not say that putting love for Our Lord first will cause a detachment from them.

Do you think that she is saying that unless we are detached from those around us, it is a selfish kind of love that remains barren? I can’t see that she is saying this.

 

[TimothyH]

I like “Give God what he takes and accept what he gives.” Another way of saying it is, “Let go of anything that is not God and is not necessary in order to reach God.” If you have it you have it, but it you no longer have it, you don’t need it.

I sometimes teach highly technical material to adults. When I can reduce a large volume of information to a few kernels, a few core ideas which communicate the essence of everything behind those ideas, my students get the most value. They learn things in ways which make the material very difficult to forget.

Your explanation here is wonderful.

Is this not the the theological virtue of hope, a desire for heaven and the beatific vision as our happiness? Or am I off on a tangent? That popped into my mind from the catechism.

-Tim-

 

[Sirach2]

Do you think that she is saying that unless we are detached from those around us, it is a selfish kind of love that remains barren? I can’t see that she is saying this.

Not at all, Denise. If you cannot make the connection seeing how her mortification enabled her to love as Christ loved, then I suppose we are at a standstill. Why else would she hold on to the banister to prevent her silly excuses to satisfy herself in visits to Mother Superior? Sorry it is over your head.

 

[TimothyH]

Sorry, but I disagree. Detachment from things around us is not required for salvation. Where is specific Church teaching saying this? Quotes from Franciscans do not count, for me.

Luke 9:23-24

Matthew 10:37-39

-Tim-

 

[Denise1957]

Not at all, Denise. If you cannot make the connection seeing how her mortification enabled her to love as Christ loved, then I suppose we are at a standstill. Why else would she hold on to the banister to prevent her silly excuses to satisfy herself in visits to Mother Superior? Sorry it is over your head.

I’m not understanding how the mortifications transfers to detachment. She did ever say that, even though she wanted to put love for the Lord above all else, she wanted to be detached or indifferent toward those around her?

 

[TrueLight]

I’m not understanding how the mortifications transfers to detachment. She did ever say that, even though she wanted to put love for the Lord above all else, she wanted to be detached or indifferent toward those around her?

I wonder if detachment and indifference have the same meaning? That may be the problem. “holy indifference” is probably different from
plain old “indifference”.

 

[Denise1957]

I wonder if detachment and indifference have the same meaning? That may be the problem. “holy indifference” is probably different from
plain old “indifference”.

Yes, I think that there is a difference.

Personally, I don’t think that St. Therese saw any need to be detached from persons or things. What she saw a need for detachment from was her own prideful inclinations, which we all suffer from, and from what others thought of her.

I recall a sermon by an SSPX priest (Fr. Hufford) who once said that the saints of old craved to be calumniated. I have thought about that sermon many times. The saints of old wanted to mortify their pride. That’s not the same thing as detachment from persons or things. It’s a detachment from what others think of them. When we are unfairly calumniated, we share in our Lord’s passion.

 

[TrueLight]

You know what I think would be helpful Timothy and Sirach? Maybe some examples of how some lay Saints approached detachment.

Sirach, can you share a little, if you don’t mind, of how you as a lay Carmelite approach it, while having worldly responsibilities like work?

 

[TimothyH]

You know what I think would be helpful Timothy and Sirach? Maybe some examples of how some lay Saints approached detachment.

Saints? Brother JR said it best…

I like “Give God what he takes and accept what he gives.” Another way of saying it is, “Let go of anything that is not God and is not necessary in order to reach God.” If you have it you have it, but it you no longer have it, you don’t need it.

As to the rest of us…

I picture myself looking down the street, and waaaaay down the street is Jesus, standing there, waiting for me. Oddly enough, the street I usually picture is 34th street looking east from 5th Avenue. I’m not kidding. I had a customer near there and spent many months there, including 9-11. LOL.

Anyway, way down the end of the street, like 2nd Avenue or something D) is Jesus, and he is waiting for me. And I have to focus on Jesus as I walk toward him. And people on the sidwalks are saying, “Hey, look at this ZR1 Corvette and this Mustang Cobra. You know you have always wanted one.” They are offering me all kinds of stuff and the street vendors are trying to get me to buy socks. They are trying to distract me from Jesus. They are trying to get me to take my eyes off Jesus. And the shop windows all have such interesting stuff, like that gem and mineral store on the corner of Madison and 34th. Is that store still there? It is all so distracting from the prize, Jesus, at the end of the street.

And there are manholes with no covers that I can fall into. I think the devil stole the manhole covers, and I wonder if that sex shop is still open on that side street, or if that pretty girl still works in that building, of if Macy’s has the new watch collection on display, or where that well dressed man bought that nice shirt - Bergdorf, no doubt.

And the longer I walk, the more I am able to ignore all this stuff. Taxi cabs and car horns, and the red lights that make me stop and wait - endlessly wait - wondering if I will ever get to see Jesus at the end of the road. I learn to put blinders on, to deal with things as they come, but to always keep my eyes at the end of the road, where Jesus is, smiling and waiting for me. Slowly, after getting tricked and distracted too many times, I learn to ignore what is not important, to watch out for the manholes and and to keep my eyes on the prize.

This is actually what I think of sometimes, Jesus at the end of 34th stree, and me walking toward him amidst the bustle of the city. Sometimes I say out loud, “Keep your eyes on the prize.” I remind myself that everything except Jesus is just a distraction, that Jesus is in charge, and that he has taken me this far…

I have to tell you that my daughter died in 1996. She was my only child. 4 1/2 years old. Stephanie Marie, baptized and buried in Catholic ground by the grace of God before I was even a Christian. And several years ago, my wife walked out, left me with two girls, 7 and 11 at the time. I remind myself that before I even knew God, he carried me through all of that and brought me here. I remind myself that God used a Baptist Pastor to bring me to him, and eventually to his Church (talk about being humbled! ) If he could take me through all of that while I addicted to habitual sin - crucifying Jesus - then he will get me through the anxiety of needing new car tires or a letter from the HOA telling me that I have 90 days to get a fresh coat of paint on the house. He will get me through this. Sometimes you have to look behind you to see where you are going.

Did you ever see that footprints in the sand picture?

And it isn’t easy. Sometimes I get distracted, or stop to look in the shop windows, or a car horn scares me to death or I trip on the curb as I make my way down the street, or have to wait for the light to change. But the older I get, the closer I get to death, the easier it gets. Only I can’t see Jesus as clearly, but I know he is there because he has gotten me this far, and for now he needs me to take care of these kids.

There is so much more, about learning to stop and help someone on the street because it is what Jesus wants me to do, and taking time to rest as I move down the street, but I should just apologize for all this jibberish and nonsense. I hope it makes sense somehow, and helps someone.

-Tim-

 

[Marie5890]

There is so much more, about learning to stop and help someone on the street because it is what Jesus wants me to do, and taking time to rest as I move down the street, but I should just apologize for all this jibberish and nonsense. I hope it makes sense somehow, and helps someone.

-Tim-

First of all Tim. Im sorry for the loss of your daughter. May Our Lady’s intersession, (who better than she understands your grief, your loss) help you heal and be given the grace you need to continue your walk towards Our Lord.

Second. I love the way you use the idea of walking down 5th Ave (Ive been there) with Christ way down and you are trying to walk to Him w/o getting distracted.

I think it’s an apt way of making your point.
Thank you. And God Bless.