detachment

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mercytruth said:
Any person, thing, goal, or objective in our life that has more value, or meaning to us than God and our Lord Jesus Christ is an attachment.
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Do you think that actually happens often with people of faith? That they/we would place something BEFORE God, that is, would actually choose the thing (or even a person!!) OVER God?
Reminds me of Abraham and Isaak… :ehh:
 
Kathrin said:
Do you think that actually happens often with people of faith? That they/we would place something BEFORE God, that is, would actually choose the thing (or even a person!!) OVER God?
Reminds me of Abraham and Isaak… :ehh:
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Actually yes - and I think it happens more often that we like to think.
Consider the rich young man. Jesus challenged his attachment to his worldly goods…and the man went away sad “for he had many possessions”.
Then consider how many of us (myself included) possess too many “things”…how much time we spend considering how to plan for retirement etc…

I’m making no judgements on anyone here, just offering something to reflect on.

Peace
James
 
Yes, a lot to reflect on.
Really makes me wonder.
What exactly did Jesus say to the young man? Matthew 19:21. “If you want to be perfect, go, sell all you have…”
The question could arise: is it ok to be less than perfect and still value God MORE than the possessions?
But then, Matthew 5:48: “Be perfect therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect”.
So the goal IS to be perfect.
But God also knows that we are humans, right?
But maybe this isn’t the question here. The question I actually wanted to ask, is: If you are not absolutely sure that God would WANT you to detach from something, then should you feel you need to detach from something that gives you joy? (not speaking of possession now. Detaching from possession in the sense of REALIZING that they are temporary, not holding on to them, being open to sharing… is I would say always good! 🙂 I am talking about hobbies, relationships, little joyful habits you look forward to, all of these of course morally ok things (if it is somebody’s joyful habit to tease somebody in a mean way, or watch sinful movies, of course that is NOT good, for example).
I guess my point is: If you KNOW something is NOT GOOD in the eyes of the Lord, then you should try to get rid of it, right? But if it is in itself something POSITIVE, something that gives you meaning, something that helps you relax… ok, then maybe detachment would just mean not forgetting that all earthly joys are from the Lord and that the real joy comes from the Lord… and not forget to pray and give time to the Lord … that is, for example, not to get so tangled up in these things that you don’t pray at all anymore :eek: Hey, maybe it is an attitude thing? If we do all things in a spirit of gratefulness and as part of a life that has at its center GOD… then that is totally different from doing exactly the same things but living superficially and seeing the meaning of life ONLY in these joys. Maybe that is one main point here?
 
Kathrin said:
Yes, a lot to reflect on.
Really makes me wonder.
What exactly did Jesus say to the young man? Matthew 19:21. “If you want to be perfect, go, sell all you have…”
The question could arise: is it ok to be less than perfect and still value God MORE than the possessions?
But then, Matthew 5:48: “Be perfect therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect”.
So the goal IS to be perfect.
But God also knows that we are humans, right?
But maybe this isn’t the question here. The question I actually wanted to ask, is: If you are not absolutely sure that God would WANT you to detach from something, then should you feel you need to detach from something that gives you joy? (not speaking of possession now. Detaching from possession in the sense of REALIZING that they are temporary, not holding on to them, being open to sharing… is I would say always good! 🙂 I am talking about hobbies, relationships, little joyful habits you look forward to, all of these of course morally ok things (if it is somebody’s joyful habit to tease somebody in a mean way, or watch sinful movies, of course that is NOT good, for example).
I guess my point is: If you KNOW something is NOT GOOD in the eyes of the Lord, then you should try to get rid of it, right? But if it is in itself something POSITIVE, something that gives you meaning, something that helps you relax… ok, then maybe detachment would just mean not forgetting that all earthly joys are from the Lord and that the real joy comes from the Lord… and not forget to pray and give time to the Lord … that is, for example, not to get so tangled up in these things that you don’t pray at all anymore :eek: Hey, maybe it is an attitude thing? If we do all things in a spirit of gratefulness and as part of a life that has at its center GOD… then that is totally different from doing exactly the same things but living superficially and seeing the meaning of life ONLY in these joys. Maybe that is one main point here?
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BINGO…Your last line nailed it…👍
 
“peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you.”

This is what he gives to us. The satisfaction of his being with us, that we are in his care and that we receive him in Communion. It’s the wonderful knowledge that makes everything we do worthwhile and a comfort. That we are one with him.

All else comes and goes like the wind.

Detachment is mainly applied to sin or that which will lead us into sin, or even attached to the pleasures of past sins.

We may have sinned thru anger, and yet feel justified that the person deserved our anger.
We may have sinned thru fornication, and yet enjoy the pleasures of thinking of that past sin.
We may have sinned thru stealing, and yet enjoy the satisfaction of our cleverness.
We may have stolen time from our children, yet have not resoved to do so again.
The list goes on and on.

A man may be wealthy and yet be detached from being greedy, stingy, hording, and selfish.
His money may even lead to his salvation by his acts of goodness and generosity.

To be detached means not to let anything interfere with our attachment to Jesus, but to be used as a means of attaching ourselves to Him. If there is anything that contradicts this, that is attachment.

It is not so much about what we have or don’t have.
A person without money could very well be attached to money if that is front and central.

A person without good looks could very well be attached to this out of desire and vanity.
A person with good looks could very will be detached and carring for those who are in need.

The question is: what is interfering with my oneness with Christ in thought? Whether it be things in my past, present or future. What is it that is taking up my time or thoughts that is not in the plan of God?

To divide is to conquer. We take them on one at a time to be successful.

Just a few thoughts about intensifying the peace that Jesus left to us.
 
Kathrin said:
Do you think that actually happens often with people of faith? That they/we would place something BEFORE God, that is, would actually choose the thing (or even a person!!) OVER God?
Reminds me of Abraham and Isaak… :ehh:
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I know the disciples of Jesus Christ did that. James and John, the sons of Zebedee, for instance, left their nets and their father to follow Jesus Christ.

Detachment is not possible without Jesus Christ. The dark night of the senses as described by St. John of the Cross is a detachment, a withdrawal from the things of this world.

The prophet Jeremiah says to the people of Israel that they looked to broken cisterns that held no water. The only water that truly satisfies the soul is the water of eternal life. Once a soul understands this truth, such a soul will desire and long for this water more than anything else, and God will withdraw such a soul from the things of this world. God will test us to see if we are faithful. We can not be double-minded, we can not serve both God and mammon.

God’s peace to you

micah
 
Ohana said:
For those interested in St. John of the Cross. There is a Carmelite Monastery and retreat center in Darien, Illinois. One of the priests there used to give classes on St. John. Tapes of the sessions were available for purchase. I don’t know the address, but you can find them on the internet I think. You might check and see if the tapes are still available. He went through two of the books I think, perhaps more. I attended some of the classes and found the interpretation by him very instructive. Heavy going by someone not well versed in that kind of writing. Best to you.
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Well it is actually the Shrine of the Little Flower. I found the website, but those tapes did not appear on the list of things in their bookshop. Sigh. I guess I have to read St John again, but going to start with St Theresa of Avila. She is a bit less obscure. 🙂

By the way, it seems to me that detachment is not only from things that lead us astray, like candy, etc, but also from right relationships with pe ople. For example, I love my children, but I have to realize they are not mine, but God’s and always were. That is also a detachment and a letting go, definitely not abandoning, but letting go or recognition of a power that is not really mine.
 
Ok, so what are some of the things we have detached from:
Things - I spoke earlier somewhere about letting go of a lot of “stuff”. this included some quite valuable in meaning things such as my grandmother’s ring that was given to me about the time I graduated from high school. It was not valuable monetarily, just in sentiment. A niece has it now. There were also collections of "things, I had gotten over the years - dishes, oh, and the books. I have always loved books and had quite an extensive professional and personal library. gone.

Ok, wrote more but it became too personal.
 
Classes of things we attach to:
  • Physical/sensual (putting our security in things)
  • Vanity (putting our security in others, what others think of us)
  • Pride (putting our security in self, ability to control circumstances).
vs. putting security in God, our Father.
  • Food or drink
  • Sex
  • free running curiosity…spending hours browsing the web
  • cars
  • hobbies
  • “our down time”
  • activity
  • music
  • our control over our calendar
  • our reputation
  • our desire to be consulted
  • electronics
  • our resentment
  • our shortcomings/excuses
  • house
  • job
  • our “piety”
 
Thanks Edward. I especially like the three classes you mention at the beginning. I recognize myself in all of them. Lots of work to do! Or not.
 
Ohana said:
Ok, so what are some of the things we have detached from:
Things - I spoke earlier somewhere about letting go of a lot of “stuff”. this included some quite valuable in meaning things such as my grandmother’s ring that was given to me about the time I graduated from high school. It was not valuable monetarily, just in sentiment. A niece has it now. There were also collections of "things, I had gotten over the years - dishes, oh, and the books. I have always loved books and had quite an extensive professional and personal library. gone.

Ok, wrote more but it became too personal.
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This is something that I am looking to do before too long as well. I need to let go of “stuff”. Not simply because I am “attached” to some things, but because I need the discipline to be more organized. So there is a multifaceted aspect to this.
Unfortunately right now it is difficult do to my wife’s illness. My emotional state is kind of fragile and it’s hard to let go of “memories”. Something that has been good is talking to the kids and passing on some things to them - important family things - connections to their mom and their grandparents.

Sorry - maybe that’s getting off topic - - - or maybe not since there are many reasons why someone might be attached to a “thing”…

Peace
James
 
For me detachment is also about disconnecting oneself from oneself. We really need to quit focusing on the me, doing things for me, watching out for me, thinking whats best for me. For as Saint Catherine of Genoa said:
“…My Me is God, nor do I recognise any other Me except my God Himself…”
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- Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510), Catholic mystic
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No work that is done purely for oneself can be nor is holy. A good work is only good so much as it is done in God and for God. You can have two men, one a mighty genius with the paintbrush who is fired with a spirit of poetic passion and creates a work which in the eyes of this world is a masterpiece, and another a simple bricklayer who is fixing together ordinary concrete slabs to build a parish church or community centre which is of no great earthly beauty. If the artist does his work for passing human glory and pride, then he has achieved nothing. For everything that is human will pass away. Beauty fades with the years, moths will eat it up, the masterpiece will slowly decay into nothingness. But that simple bricklayer, if his work is sanctified and done for the purpose of serving his brothers and sisters in humanity, is a work done in God. The true worth is not how a work is seen in the eyes of men but how it is seen in God. And a work done in God will endure for all eternity. So detachment is about offering up every work to God and not ourselves. Everything you do, do to God, do in God, do by God and never to yourself, in yourself or by yourself. Self has no substance, it is a dead end because it takes in but gives nothing back out in return. It is a circle which will always come back round again, forever and ever to the me, sating the me, pointed towards gratifying the me and so ending with the me and bearing no fruit that will last. That is why I say that it is a dead end. That is why Christ told us that we find our life by losing it, find ourselves by losing ourselves. When we put of the old life, we can find our true life “hidden with Christ in God”. Remove the me from the equation and no obstacles will remain. For as Angelus Silesius said:
“…God, whose love and joy are present everywhere, can’t come to visit you unless you aren’t there…”
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*** - Angelus Silesius (1624 – 1677), Catholic mystic & poet ***
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A work done in God lasts forever because God is not human and is not bound by transience. Detachment helps us to do everything for God rather than for ourselves.
 
St John of the Cross wrote extensively on “detachment.”

There is detachment from self, from disordinate appetites which keep us from focusing our will on God.

Here’s one chapter from the Ascent of Mt Carmel

ecatholic2000.com/stjohn/ascent28.shtml

St Teresa of Avila described an attachment a nun had on a holy picture. She loved the picture and always gazed upon it when she was at the Liturgy of the Hours and in her cell. One day, a novice noticed the picture the sister was gazing on and commented, what a beautify picture. The nun suddenly realized that the Lord was calling her to detach herself from the picture, so the nun gave it to the novice and told her to keep it.

I’m surprised that people early in this thread thought that the spirit of detachment, was something only Buddhist do. All religions involved in spiritual contemplation mandate detachment from self-serving appetites.

Jim
 
Something today triggered me thinking about this, and I really wondered about some things.

For one thing: We all have things in life that give us joy, right? It can be really small things, that for some reason are important to us.
They may help define us who we are.
(Again, I am not talking about sinful things here. Things that we have already established are good or at least ok for us to do/feel strongly about.)

So, joy per se is good, right? What would be our life without joy? If er rid our lives of all the little joyful things… would that be healthy? (again: detachment does not mean elimination, but I still want to add this thought here.) I don’t think it would… ok, maybe it is the ultimate goal to not need anything in life except God Himself, but while we are here on earht, God speaks to us also through earthly things, isn’t that so? He provides us with things that give us joy.

Now the questions may arise mostly if one of these things that has defined us suddenly comes into danger/question. An example (I don’t want to get too personal here so I am using a neutral example). Let’s say a woman is very active at sports and finds great joy in it. She feels good in her body, loves the way she is still healthy and muscular even though maybe not the youngest anymore. Likes what she sees when she looks into the mirror; loves nature; loves to go run; this also definies her identity, for others she is “the quirly active one”, etc. Ahe enjoys that image. Sinful? I don’t think so. Does she need to detach from it if she enjoys it too much? I don’t know, if it doesn’t hurt anybody and helps her be upbeat and loving and joyful, a “sunshine” in the presence of others?

But anyway, le^t’s say this lady suddenly is threatened with illness. She has to go see a doctor and depending on her diagnosis, she may never run again. Never be active again. She gets realy really scared. Who will she be? Etc.

Now… this is where the deep thoughts come in, isn’t it? Where suddenly she may realize: Hm. Somehow life would have to go on. And she may realize: Life CAN go on without this, even if it really “defined” her. As long as she has her faith, life CAN go on ANYWAY.
As long as she has God (and God we always have, we cannot really lose him, maybe unless we choose to…). The only thing in life that we v^can NOT live without is GOD and our FAITH. All other things we COULD live on without… somehow.

This may trigger really deep thoughts in her. Deep fear, but also deep insight. The insight that her joy has been a gift of God, that she can enjoy it, but she must also accept if she has to go a different way now.

Ok. Now let’s say the woman sees her doctor and, great relief, everything is ok, she doesn’t have to give up her sports, etc. She can be who she used to.

Now… this whole thing may have taught her something though. Taught her a lesson in detachment? Maybe already GAVE her some detachment: the insight she had. Even though she cannot imagine it really, even though she really hopes that she doesn’t have to give up running, she realizes that life would still go on… somehow… because God would see her through. And the only “thing” she can’t do without is God.

Now: I don’t think this woman should then, after her positive diagnosis, not enjoy running and her good feelings about herself anymore. But maybe she will have learned a lesson in detachment: The insight that life IS possible without it.
But that doesn’t mean it is wrong to enjoy it. Because it still is a gift of God.

Just thoughts…

Kathrin
 
Reading JimR and Kathrins posts. The core ingredient in both examples seems to be a realization that both of these “things” are available to be given to God. It is not necessarily the act, but the willingness to act that is the difference. The Nun gave up the picture but will certainly retain the image in her mind and heart. The “runner” realizes she can give up the exercise, and so even if she goes back to it, its purpose and focus have changed.

I really liked these two examples. I learned something and celebrate the subleties of detachment. Thanks you both.

🙂
 
but personally i don’t think it would be wrong if the runner from my example really enjoyed running again afterward.
Maybe even more. With more thankfulness?
 
Kathrin said:
but personally i don’t think it would be wrong if the runner from my example really enjoyed running again afterward.
Maybe even more. With more thankfulness?
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Kathrin, I like your story of the runner because it does sound true blue. However I don’t believe standing in front of mirror and admiring oneself is not a definition of detachment. Sounds a little like, “mirror mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all”. If she addresses hygene or health, ok. She’s attached and its called vanity. She should stay away from all that admiration and move on with her day. I’m not saying it’s a capitol crime, but it would be another block in the way because it sounds like giving glory to herself. To the world this is ok.

But she has found the way when you said that she now is able to give it up if necessary, but now enjoys it as a gift from the Father.

Just a thought.
 
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