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wmw
Guest
This doesn’t obscure my main point that it takes a spiritual soul to have free will. The mechanics of material things and animals are random and/or cause and effect.
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orang
Guest
Good reading along, it might be possible to use an analogy to get at what can be penciled in. Penciling things in is how an idea can be developed. ( simply thinking along no big deal or grandiose answer.
In a tennis game there is no time to calculate and wonder if a little more flour in the apple pie recipe for later in the day, is a possible answer to the treat being more nutritious or tasty or maybe cook quicker saving energy and the electric bill.
See what happens when there is free time ?
what is the free time and what does it represent.
The animal god love the animal is playing the game and does not have as much free time to speculate different options and so forth.
The general animal thinks in immediacy although aided by instinct. So what is instinct ?
Rather then getting into what is instinct for now the human, can delve into another world of potential outcomes and so on…including the consideration and many possible sequence of events.
Man can create another future world, in the world of his mind and deliberate…this is key, …deliberate, there is an individual association going on . The association may be the project. The association and how it works… It may get confused or argued about by some because of a denial of the freedom itself, for example we are free to talk to walls or bang against walls or …avoid the wall and get out to the car so as not to be late for work…but it is possible to be deliberately late for work and there is a choice ( deliberate to send a message to the employer ! I don’t know what Aristotle says but it seems the intellect would be the manager. A calculator sending suggestions to the unconscious, in wait at light speed for 'impressions from the unconscious signaled by metabolism sensitivity etc, compelled by the soul or state of the soul ( realistic advance), something needs to be compelling things and its not a materialistic value. The base common inquiry regarding determine and non determine I don’t think is a problem. For example , from a creator of this worlds perspective and all other relative perspectives due to subject, the only way an observation can be made which suggests to not make sense, is if a full understanding of the words determinism and non determinism are, and defined relative to the whole total god reality which is impossible, so the questions specifically …at…the issue pre-suppose understanding way more then what would be reasonable for an observation.
In a tennis game there is no time to calculate and wonder if a little more flour in the apple pie recipe for later in the day, is a possible answer to the treat being more nutritious or tasty or maybe cook quicker saving energy and the electric bill.
See what happens when there is free time ?
what is the free time and what does it represent.
The animal god love the animal is playing the game and does not have as much free time to speculate different options and so forth.
The general animal thinks in immediacy although aided by instinct. So what is instinct ?
Rather then getting into what is instinct for now the human, can delve into another world of potential outcomes and so on…including the consideration and many possible sequence of events.
Man can create another future world, in the world of his mind and deliberate…this is key, …deliberate, there is an individual association going on . The association may be the project. The association and how it works… It may get confused or argued about by some because of a denial of the freedom itself, for example we are free to talk to walls or bang against walls or …avoid the wall and get out to the car so as not to be late for work…but it is possible to be deliberately late for work and there is a choice ( deliberate to send a message to the employer ! I don’t know what Aristotle says but it seems the intellect would be the manager. A calculator sending suggestions to the unconscious, in wait at light speed for 'impressions from the unconscious signaled by metabolism sensitivity etc, compelled by the soul or state of the soul ( realistic advance), something needs to be compelling things and its not a materialistic value. The base common inquiry regarding determine and non determine I don’t think is a problem. For example , from a creator of this worlds perspective and all other relative perspectives due to subject, the only way an observation can be made which suggests to not make sense, is if a full understanding of the words determinism and non determinism are, and defined relative to the whole total god reality which is impossible, so the questions specifically …at…the issue pre-suppose understanding way more then what would be reasonable for an observation.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right since reading I gather everyone is at will-free and conscience. I like the two model free-will, I don’t think its finished though by any stretch of the imagination.
With extremely limited time to simulate no time the best as possible. Chance is reduced to spontaneous choice which calls for a collective scan of the knowns. Then they may be applied to an unknown situation, so the individual acts in others and their own best interest with the choice.
There’s another stage prior that’s overlooked. There’s something else that happens in these moments that extends past execution of fundamental knowledge and cognitive application of memory processing, visual and auditory. So cognitive development is at the center, but its not the center, when we add imagination, creative ability, intuition, premonition. There’s just more to it as we are much more interconnected than realized. Not just us as humans but to the whole which we rose from. We are born with some innate potential to understand the same universal categories the same logical ways. So there is a powerful known pre-existing within us I would contend.
There’s a shallowness to the free-will system suggested which omits possibility and deeper thinking.
With extremely limited time to simulate no time the best as possible. Chance is reduced to spontaneous choice which calls for a collective scan of the knowns. Then they may be applied to an unknown situation, so the individual acts in others and their own best interest with the choice.
There’s another stage prior that’s overlooked. There’s something else that happens in these moments that extends past execution of fundamental knowledge and cognitive application of memory processing, visual and auditory. So cognitive development is at the center, but its not the center, when we add imagination, creative ability, intuition, premonition. There’s just more to it as we are much more interconnected than realized. Not just us as humans but to the whole which we rose from. We are born with some innate potential to understand the same universal categories the same logical ways. So there is a powerful known pre-existing within us I would contend.
There’s a shallowness to the free-will system suggested which omits possibility and deeper thinking.
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wmw
Guest
It’s the starting point for the Determinism-Indeterminism dilemma. The reason it is any sort of lasting dilemma is that there is nothing in our examination of the material world that has exhibited anything other than these modes for matter. From the Greek’s first posing of the dilemma to the present modern physical theories of the standard model and other proposals such a string theory nothing has made this dilemma mute.
It’s not a proof, but the test has been exhausting and not found a cause for failure in all the examination of matter that all serious scientific research has undertaken. This is why I only pose it as an axiom though one that should be highly regarded.
Any time the Determinism-Indeterminism dilemma is proposed this same axiom is also part of the core of the dilemma. Applying Occam’s Razor I find the more simple escape from this dilemma to be that the spirit world is not able of being examined rather than all the sciences will some day examine an intelligence in matter that has escaped all the scientists eye for so long.
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wmw
Guest
I agree through I’ve not even come to grips with an automatic bubbling up of options. It seems deeper thought and deliberation accomplishes bringing new options to the fore. Are these also automatic and/or chance? I can accept it for the sake of argument, but I don’t think it a complete theory of decision making either.
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orang
Guest
Okay,
How can free will be scientifically indistinguishable from an indeterminate event when situations and translations are relative in every way ?
There is no equation out of science in any way which can post relative impressions which have everything to do with free will. Hidden impressions.
So heres what we need to do and I didn’t think it would come to this,
To all,
you have 1 minute, that’s it…what is a sentence, what is in fact a sentence ?
go, elaborate …write from automatic thinking…just go. ( if you think I enjoy this I do not.
How can free will be scientifically indistinguishable from an indeterminate event when situations and translations are relative in every way ?
There is no equation out of science in any way which can post relative impressions which have everything to do with free will. Hidden impressions.
So heres what we need to do and I didn’t think it would come to this,
To all,
you have 1 minute, that’s it…what is a sentence, what is in fact a sentence ?
go, elaborate …write from automatic thinking…just go. ( if you think I enjoy this I do not.
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wmw
Guest
Agreed, just as the unbelieving say that each condition of the environment and step of mutation was a happy chain of accidents leading to humanity; so also, every thought a bit of luck of the firing of a synapse. This is why this dilemma will last as long as there are unbelievers, but to maintain unbelief and maintain this logic is to believe that all is luck, even your every thought and personality.
Obviously many will not accept this logic of “luck is everything”, but oddly some hard line and very intellectual atheists do. I personally know one.
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CatholicSoxFan
Guest
Also, any argument against determinism is going to be based on premises less obvious than free will itself.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I like the way you think.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
As I explained above it is the nature of those things which have a nature of their own which causes these things to move ( change in any way ) or rest. By their natures all things are, change, rest; and for living thing, all their living operations and functions are governed by their natures. But natures do not move or rest without an end, they do nothing without an end in view. But their ends are created in their natures.
But is God who creates these natures, so he causes them to act as their agent cause through their natures and directs them, through their natures, to their proper ends. This is indeed a type of determinism and it means that there is no indeterminism and no randomness in nature.
But man and angels are special cases. The nature of man is governed by his soul. Some operations of the soul are strictly natural operations - nurishment, growth, digestion, the functioning of the nevrves, the blood and lymph systems, etc. But the intellect and will are free. So there is in man natural operations in which he is not free, and the actions of the mind which are free.
Linus2nd
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wmw
Guest
I don’t lock God into any such job of all direction though I agree in His original endowment of direction and natures from the Beginning. He intercedes as He wills, but much of creation was a good creation in that it hardly needs redirection. If he allows randomness where His plan is not corrupted then who are we to say He must direct it instead.
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