Detroit's pacifist bishop resigns-Pope to announce the move today

[felra]

Libero:

People here should stop complaining about Bishop Gumbleton, you have really no right to complain, nobody here is a priest, nor are they a bishop, thus, a mans life long devotion and always 100% effort to the church should not be criticised.

Secondly, I like Bishop Gumbleton, when I here about what he strives to acheive, I think, “there is someone who is so alive with a simple message of love for all - one who has energy purely from that message”.

Whilst you may disagree with his take on some matters, he has also acheived numerous great feats, he has flown all over the world to try and defend those who are being unjustly persecuted, Bishop Gumbleton is a good man, and has proven a popular person among a number of my non Catholic friends, when thet heard of his very vocal opposition to the war.

“Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops like bishops and your religious act like religious.” – Abp. Fulton J. Sheen before the Knights of Columbus in June 1972.

 

[Libero]

“Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops like bishops and your religious act like religious.” – Abp. Fulton J. Sheen before the Knights of Columbus in June 1972.

And what percentage of bishops act like bishops?

This also depends on how one defines bishop. If it is that he is a person who cares for the lay people of the church, then yes, Bishop Gumbleton is a good bishop, if it is one who defends his beliefs, then yes Bishop Gumbleton is a good bishop.

We are all human and all unique, no bishop is perfect, Bishop Gumbletons supposedly undesirable characteristics are out weighed by his desirable ones.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Libero, until you have walked in our shoes, and seen what this man has tried to do to new priests, heard his disobedience on Catholic teachings, and lived under the embarrassing moments he has caused in this Archdiocese, you really should not be telling us that we have no rights.

I haven’t seen one Archdiocese of Detroiter here express regret at his retirement.

I hope he moves to Florida. Or better yet, England.

 

[Libero]

I hope he moves to Florida. Or better yet, England.

Not a problem with me, even if I didn’t agree with him I still wouldn’t go around on the internet complaining about him, particularly when he isn’t even here to defend himself.

Oh well, I dare say the bishop and I would probably get on well, sharing pacifist notions and all.

 

[frommi]

Detroit Sue:

I haven’t seen one Archdiocese of Detroiter here express regret at his retirement.

So, who were they quoting in the Free Press yesterday? People from the Diocese of Toledo?

This is still so much ado about nothing…retirement doesn’t mean he no longer carries the title of Bishop.

He’s a good man who has supported worthwhile causes, and has done more to stick with his beliefs while living out that famous bibilical injunction “Christ was ill spoken of and spoke no evil in return”

 

[felra]

Libero:

Not a problem with me, even if I didn’t agree with him I still wouldn’t go around on the internet complaining about him, particularly when he isn’t even here to defend himself.

Oh well, I dare say the bishop and I would probably get on well, sharing pacifist notions and all.

I agree to reserve judgment, and that by their fruits you will know them. From the first of 275 entries under www.google.com search words: bishop gumbleton dissident.

Bishop Gumbleton, the auxiliary Bishop of Detroit known as perhaps the most ‘progressive’ bishop in the Catholic Church will be offering a talk on “Spirit in the World” on October 29-30. The conference organizers did not seem to mind Bishop Gumbleton’s advocacy for women priests or his statements on homosexuality, one of which claims homosexuals “make love more humanely, largely because they are better able empathetically to feel what their partner is feeling.”

Gumbleton has been prominently involved with the dissident church organization Call to Action, which began in the Detroit Diocese.

lifesite.net/ldn/2004/oct/041008a.html

“You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.” Matthew 7:16-20

 

[frommi]

felra:

I agree to reserve judgment, and that by their fruits you will know them. From the first of 275 entries under www.google.com search words: bishop gumbleton dissident.

lifesite.net/ldn/2004/oct/041008a.html

“You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.” Matthew 7:16-20

Isn’t it a little off base to use a scripture reference to call a bishop ‘evil’?

 

[Libero]

I think Bishop Gaillot may be one to challenge his position as liberal bishop. Particularly due to Gaillots rather cunning antics.

I am not entirely sure that LifeSite News is the best place to be quoting a fair article about the bishop though, they are extremely biased, particularly towards anyone who has gone the slightest bit away from conventional teaching on homosexuality.

 

[felra]

frommi:

Isn’t it a little off base to use a scripture reference to call a bishop ‘evil’?

Please do not misrepresent my relevent scripture citations.

“You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.” Matthew 7:16-20

These are the words of Jesus: “bad tree” bears evil fruit.

…and in his next breath (verse) Jesus declares these strong words for the prophets and miracle workers of his day (note: not the ordinary “laity”):

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’ Matthew 7:21-23

 

[frommi]

felra:

Please do not misrepresent my relevent scripture citations.

“You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.” Matthew 7:16-20

These are the words of Jesus: “bad tree” bears evil fruit.

…and in his next breath (verse) Jesus declares these strong words for the prophets and miracle workers of his day (note: not the ordinary “laity”):

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’ Matthew 7:21-23

He also sent the holy spirit on his apostles, and Bishop Gumbleton is one a successor of those people.

I’m still confused what point you are trying to make.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

frommi:

So, who were they quoting in the Free Press yesterday? People from the Diocese of Toledo?

Here. As in these forums. Gumbleton groupies don’t generally flock to an orthodox website. They are too busy at the Call to Action and the National Catholic Reporter sites.

Did you read his “open letter” in the freep? Sounds like he was not willing to submit to the Vatican authority, which is why his resignation was so readily accepted.

During the past year I have carried on correspondence with Cardinal Giovanni Re, the head of the Congregation for Bishops, regarding this request. However, some time ago he indicated that my request to defer my resignation was not acceptable. Finally, I decided to end the discussion. On January 21, 2006, I wrote to Pope Benedict asking him to accept my resignation from my office as auxiliary bishop to Cardinal Maida.

So, is the Vatican wrong? Is everyone wrong but Gumbleton?

 

[frommi]

Detroit Sue:

So, is the Vatican wrong? Is everyone wrong but Gumbleton?

I’m not understanding the question you’re asking. Are you referring to his request to delay retirement?

 

[aimee]

frommi:

I’m not understanding the question you’re asking. Are you referring to his request to delay retirement?

I dare say you know very well the question…maybe you just don’t want to admit it…

 

[frommi]

I dare say you know very well the question…maybe you just don’t want to admit it…

It’s difficult to dialogue when I’m being asked to divine the meaning of a very general statement.

Look, maybe I’m not right, but I need a little more info to either make an affirmation of the stated ‘fact’, or deny it.

 

[felra]

frommi:

He also sent the holy spirit on his apostles, and Bishop Gumbleton is one a successor of those people.

I’m still confused what point you are trying to make.

This is my point pertinent to the established track record of heterodoxy particular to bishop:

"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.” Mark 9:42

“I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.” 2 Timothy 4:1-4

Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when

given by those who by nature or** office are obliged to teach and educate others**. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing. (CCC 2285)

 

[Hesychios]

felra:

Though, as the article points out, this bishop may very well continue to cause more disarray for the faithful Church now that he is officially retired:

I don’t understand, what kind of disarray?

Because he is a peace activist?

 

[frommi]

OK…so things were off by a week…

The resignation was announced this morning.

I’m still befuddled as to what all of this means

 

[msproule]

frommi:

I’m still befuddled as to what all of this means

Me too. But to which part of “this” are you referring?

Is your confusion about why people are so interested in his retirement?

Or, perhaps it is because of the drama that arose out of this drawn out process (abbreviated below):

1. 
   *]Suggesting to news media that he might not offer his letter of recommendation on time because it would get accepted with much haste.
   *]Quietly petition Vatican for permission to delay retirement and continue service as Auxiliary Bishop.
   *]Announce 60 year-old abuse claim while promoting removal of statutes of limitation for abuse victims.
   *]Announcing submission of retirement papers.
   *]Hasty acceptance of retirement request (as predicted in 1).
   
   I think that the second possibility has much to do with the first. He himself made a spectacle out of this normal event.

 

[grotto]

His tactics have left quite an embarrassing finale to his role in the Church. The ending does fit his story.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Apparently, other Catholics are happy about this announcement. This article in Catholic World News is less careful in its tone than any of us here. I sense a “don’t let the door hit you on your way out” message.