Detroit's Tridentine Mass

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JNB:
I know Fr. Ward is a product of the Grotto, and it is good to see him in an enviroment where he will be appreciated, same with Fr. Butsamante who is now at the Grotto. It is better to have priests be able to teach the fullness of the faith and encourage vocations rather than be treated like garbage at St. Suburbia because of offending the dogmas of political correctness.
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I’ve heard Fr. Paul Ward is not able or not allowed to do the Tridentine at St. Josephat.

Does anyone know whose decision that is to make? Is it Fr. Borkowski or is it an archdiocese thing? If it is the archdiocese, then who there is responsible? Zenz?
 
A priest has to have two things to be allowed to celebrate an indult. One is an indult card granted by Rome, and two, permission to celebrate the mass publically by the Bishop. The Archdiocese of Detroit from what I understand very reluctantly allowed the indult a year and a half ago, only because there were two SSPX chapels plus other “independent” parishes in the area as well that celebrate the TLM, that had many years of growth and Cardinal Madia was somwhat dismayed that many children were going to mass outside of the diocean structure.

In any event, the Latin Novus Ordo at St Joseph is much like the one at the Grotto, and it seems Fr. Ward celebrates that mass quite frequently.
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Lux_et_veritas:
I’ve heard Fr. Paul Ward is not able or not allowed to do the Tridentine at St. Josephat.

Does anyone know whose decision that is to make? Is it Fr. Borkowski or is it an archdiocese thing? If it is the archdiocese, then who there is responsible? Zenz?
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By the way, how is attendence been at the TLM in Detroit? Has there been growth?

CathMass said:
Cluster Schedule for Advent and Christmas

(Please note this is NOT the complete schedule listing.)

December 4th -
Christmas Concert at St. Joseph Church: 3:00 PM

December 8th Immaculate Conception
Sweetest Heart of Mary Church: 6:00 PM
St. Joseph Church: 12 noon
St. Josaphat 12 noon

December 14th -
Advent Vespers at St. Joseph Church: 7:00 PM

December 24-
Children’s Mass at Sweetest Heart of Mary: 4:00 PM
Shepherd’s Mass at St. Josaphat: 10:00 PM

December 25 - Christmas Day
Sweetest Heart of Mary Church
Midnight Mass with the
Most Reverend Bishop John Quinn of Detroit

St. Joseph Church
Novus Ordo Latin Midnight Mass at St. Joseph

**Solemn High Tridentine Mass at **
St. Josaphat Church
Celebrant: Fr. Wolfgang Seitz
  • 9:30 AM -
  • Christmas Mass at Sweetest Heart: 10:30 AM
  • Christmas Mass at St. Joseph: 10:30 AM
  • Christmas Mass at St. Josaphat: 12 noon
Other Masses of interest:

Solemn High Mass of Christmas
Tridentine Mass : 2:00 PM
St. Michael’s Church in Windsor Canada

I would like to keep this thread on topic and not go off on the topic of the Tridentine Mass in Detroit so I would appreciate it if this thread is not made into an big announcement board for other churches. However other churches with Latin Masses such as Assumption Grotto and Holy Family etc… can also have a place here.
Thank You & God Bless
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Breaking News –

The Archdiocese of Detroit has just permitted the first Tridentine Mass outside of a Sunday. On Thursday, December 8, there will be a Traditional Latin Mass at St. Josaphat at 6:30 PM. It will be a sung Mass (Missa Cantata), as usual. The Holy Rosary will be recited at 6:10 PM, and Confessions will be available, in order to help the faithful gain the special Plenary Indulgence granted by our Holy Father for December 8, 2005.

Now is the time to prove to the Archdiocese that there is actual demand for expanded Tridentine Masses. The best thing you can do for the cause is to attend this Holy Mass. So many of us have asked for additional TLMs; let’s show the authorities that we walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

Disclaimer: Please check in with this thread before you go, in case plans change.

Also –

The Tridentine Mass on Christmas Day at 2:00 PM in Windsor at St. Michael Church will be a Solemn High Mass celebrated by Fr. Charles Van Vliet, FSSP. It is a special privilege to have priests from the Fraternity of St. Peter visit our region. A reception with Fr. Van Vliet will follow the Mass.

Lux:

Fr. Ward is not permitted to celebrate the Tridentine Mass publicly. Decisions like this one, and the Holy Day decision, reach the parish via messengers from the Archdiocese. In many cases, Fr. Borkowski does not know who made the decision. It’s safe to assume that decisions of this magnitude are made by the Cardinal or his delegated auxiliary bishop(s). Fr. Borkowski has no say on the matter, and is not even permitted to schedule the celebrants.

As JNB said, Fr. Ward is now celebrating the Latin Novus Ordo Mass at St. Joseph approximately twice per month at 10:30 AM Sundays. In addition, he recently began offering a Latin Novus Ordo Mass at St. Joseph on Mondays and Tuesdays at 12:10 PM. The Sunday Masses are ad orientem, as well may be the daily Masses (I haven’t attended yet).

JNB:

On a practical level, a priest only needs permission from his bishop to celebrate the TLM publicly. None of the priests who serve St. Josaphat have a celebret, or “indult card”. Those were distributed mostly in the early days of the Ecclesia Dei Commission. Today, even if a priest had a celebret, he would be treading on dangerous political ground using it to circumvent a bishop’s ban on public celebration of the TLM.

The story of how the TLM was approved in the Archdiocese of Detroit is far more complex than what you cite. This is not the place to discuss that story, both as a matter of prudence, and for lack of sufficient space to accurately describe each step in a very long process. Many issues and many people contributed to the ultimate decision. To oversimplify it is do to it injustice. Let us just thank God that we have it now, and that Fr. Borkowski supports it in every way he can.

Attendance on Sundays has been 120-160. We can always use more.
 
Thanks for the info. The TLM here in Columbus is growing, and some weeks attendence gets close to 200, but the average is around 170 or so. It has a very supportive pastor, all major feat days have a TLM celebrated as well, but it has been 10 years since the weekly indult was granted here. A problem we have here in Columbus in growing the mass is that there is a “liturgical” parish that is in the vein of the Groto and SS Cyrill & Methodius, that celebrates the Novus Ordo in a very traditional manner. It is difficult to convince people to even try to attend the TLM when a parish they attend lacks the biggest flashpoints of the liturgical wars(such as bad hymnals, EMHCs, altar girls, unorthdox sermons).
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AlexB:
Breaking News –

The Archdiocese of Detroit has just permitted the first Tridentine Mass outside of a Sunday. On Thursday, December 8, there will be a Traditional Latin Mass at St. Josaphat at 6:30 PM. It will be a sung Mass (Missa Cantata), as usual. The Holy Rosary will be recited at 6:10 PM, and Confessions will be available, in order to help the faithful gain the special Plenary Indulgence granted by our Holy Father for December 8, 2005.

Now is the time to prove to the Archdiocese that there is actual demand for expanded Tridentine Masses. The best thing you can do for the cause is to attend this Holy Mass. So many of us have asked for additional TLMs; let’s show the authorities that we walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

Disclaimer: Please check in with this thread before you go, in case plans change.

Also –

The Tridentine Mass on Christmas Day at 2:00 PM in Windsor at St. Michael Church will be a Solemn High Mass celebrated by Fr. Charles Van Vliet, FSSP. It is a special privilege to have priests from the Fraternity of St. Peter visit our region. A reception with Fr. Van Vliet will follow the Mass.

Lux:

Fr. Ward is not permitted to celebrate the Tridentine Mass publicly. Decisions like this one, and the Holy Day decision, reach the parish via messengers from the Archdiocese. In many cases, Fr. Borkowski does not know who made the decision. It’s safe to assume that decisions of this magnitude are made by the Cardinal or his delegated auxiliary bishop(s). Fr. Borkowski has no say on the matter, and is not even permitted to schedule the celebrants.

As JNB said, Fr. Ward is now celebrating the Latin Novus Ordo Mass at St. Joseph approximately twice per month at 10:30 AM Sundays. In addition, he recently began offering a Latin Novus Ordo Mass at St. Joseph on Mondays and Tuesdays at 12:10 PM. The Sunday Masses are ad orientem, as well may be the daily Masses (I haven’t attended yet).

JNB:

On a practical level, a priest only needs permission from his bishop to celebrate the TLM publicly. None of the priests who serve St. Josaphat have a celebret, or “indult card”. Those were distributed mostly in the early days of the Ecclesia Dei Commission. Today, even if a priest had a celebret, he would be treading on dangerous political ground using it to circumvent a bishop’s ban on public celebration of the TLM.

The story of how the TLM was approved in the Archdiocese of Detroit is far more complex than what you cite. This is not the place to discuss that story, both as a matter of prudence, and for lack of sufficient space to accurately describe each step in a very long process. Many issues and many people contributed to the ultimate decision. To oversimplify it is do to it injustice. Let us just thank God that we have it now, and that Fr. Borkowski supports it in every way he can.

Attendance on Sundays has been 120-160. We can always use more.
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+ Deo Gratias +

**Finally the Diocese has given **
**a Holy Day! **

**:clapping: **
------------------------
I****mmaculate Mary, Patroness of the United States Pray for us
 
JNB -

I hear you.

Detroit has 5 “Liturgical Parishes”: Besides Grotto and Ss. Cyril & Methodius, there are Old St. Mary’s and Holy Family in downtown Detroit, plus St. Joseph, our cluster parish. I wonder how many other clusters there are out there, with a TLM at one church, and a strong tradition of ad orientem Latin NO at the other. St. Michael in Windsor is more of a virtual cluster partner than a competitor, due to its nearness and overlap in attendees and volunteers.

Old St. Mary’s, Holy Family, St. Joseph, and St. Josaphat are just a few miles apart from one another, and even St. Michael is just 6 miles away in Canada. Grotto and C&M are further.

Dare I say that there is one positive fruit from this situation: At least in the case of St. Michael, St. Josaphat, and St. Joseph, the quality of the Masses and music has improved over the last year because of a sense of good-natured competition among us.

Incidentally, one of the region’s great defenders of reverence in the Holy Mass has just passed away: Fr. John Stopponi, pastor of Holy Family. That church celebrates all of its scheduled Masses in Latin, ad orientem, and has since Vatican II. I wonder if any other church in North America can make that claim. Say a prayer for this holy man.
 
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AlexB:
As JNB said, Fr. Ward is now celebrating the Latin Novus Ordo Mass at St. Joseph approximately twice per month at 10:30 AM Sundays. In addition, he recently began offering a Latin Novus Ordo Mass at St. Joseph on Mondays and Tuesdays at 12:10 PM. The Sunday Masses are ad orientem, as well may be the daily Masses (I haven’t attended yet).
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I can verify that last week Fr. Ward celebrated the Tuesday Latin Mass *ad orientem, *as well as the English Mass on Wednesday.
 
Solemnity of the
Immaculate Conception

Holy Day of Obligation
Thursday December 8, 2005

Tridentine Latin Mass
Celebrant Fr. Mark Borkowski

Holy Rosary - 6:10 PM
Tridentine Mass (Missa Cantata) - 6:30 PM
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
How did the Holy Mass go?
Was there good attendance?
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I was at the 12:00 Mass, and Father Borkowski was advertising for the 6:30 Mass. He wanted us to remind our Catholic friends, family, and co-workers of the importance of this day. I certainly hope that there was a great turnout.
 
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msproule:
I was at the 12:00 Mass, and Father Borkowski was advertising for the 6:30 Mass. He wanted us to remind our Catholic friends, family, and co-workers of the importance of this day. I certainly hope that there was a great turnout.
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And you didn’t tell me that you were coming South???
You could have met us at Cyrils!
I would have treated you to lunch at Nosh’s, the most Holy diner around. Truly. You can choose a seat by the Altar they have set up in the back!
(parish member owns it, can you tell?)
 
The Mass was beautiful tonight and Fr. Borkowski gave a very lively homily on the Mass, Holy Days and of course the Immaculate Conception. The Holy Rosary was prayed and confessions were offered so as to fullfill the conditions for the Plenary Indulgence.
 
Attendance was 90. That’s excellent considering that we only had one Sunday to publicize it to the congregation. Thanks to all participants on this board who came. Your support of this first Holy Day Mass means a lot to the parish.

Fr. Borkowski is becoming more familiar with the TLM and has promised to celebrate it himself more often.

More significantly, Fr. Borkowski just received permission from the Archdiocese for Tridentine Masses on all Holy Days from now on! He is also trying to secure a TLM for Ash Wednesday. Our prayers have been heard.

Next up: A Solemn High Mass accompanied by an Orchestra on Christmas Day at 9:30 AM. St. Josaphat will be hosting members of the Windsor Symphony Orchestra performing Marc-Antoine Charpentier’s Messe de Minuit de Noel. This is the first time in 35 years that there will be two Solemn High Masses in the region on the same day.
 
Last night’s Mass was beautiful as always. It looked like a pretty good turnout. About halfway through Mass, one of the statues of an angel lost a wing which came crashing down behind the altar.
 
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AlexB:
Next up: A Solemn High Mass accompanied by an Orchestra on Christmas Day at 9:30 AM. St. Josaphat will be hosting members of the Windsor Symphony Orchestra performing Marc-Antoine Charpentier’s Messe de Minuit de Noel. This is the first time in 35 years that there will be two Solemn High Masses in the region on the same day.
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Will they ever have a Solemn High Mass, accompanied only by the organ, and sung ONLY in Gregorian Chant?

I wince when I hear of Tridentine Masses being accompanied by orchestras that are “performing” Masses.

The orchestra degenerates the Mass into a performance, and takes away from the meaning of the Mass! Orchestras overwhelm the Mass!

We should go to Mass because it is MASS, not because we are going to hear an orchestra play. If I wanted to hear an orchestra play, I would go to a concert hall.

Bring back Gregorian Chant!🙂 :amen:
 
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GoLatin:
Will they ever have a Solemn High Mass, accompanied only by the organ, and sung ONLY in Gregorian Chant?

I wince when I hear of Tridentine Masses being accompanied by orchestras that are “performing” Masses.

The orchestra degenerates the Mass into a performance, and takes away from the meaning of the Mass! Orchestras overwhelm the Mass!

We should go to Mass because it is MASS, not because we are going to hear an orchestra play. If I wanted to hear an orchestra play, I would go to a concert hall.

Bring back Gregorian Chant!🙂 :amen:
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I’m not 100% sure, but I believe the Solemn High Mass on Christ the King was Gregorian accompanied by organ. Or at least that was the majority if I remember correctly.
 
“Will they ever”?? St. Josaphat’s Solemn High Masses on Low Sunday (April 3), and Christ the King (Oct. 30) used Gregorian Mass VIII. St. Michael’s Solemn High Masses in October, 2004 and Christmas Day, 2005 were Gregorian, too. This Christmas Day happens to be the first Solemn High Mass in the region in 35 years that is not Gregorian.

A Mass with Sacred Polyphony and optionally an orchestra can be a marvelous experience on special occasions. My personal favorite is Vierne’s Messe Solennelle.

But if you don’t care for Polyphonic Masses, don’t worry.
The majority of Solemn High Masses out there are accompanied by Gregorian Chant. You wouldn’t tell McDonalds to “bring back” burgers just because you saw someone order a Filet of Fish.
 
AlexB said:
“Will they ever”?? St. Josaphat’s Solemn High Masses on Low Sunday (April 3), and Christ the King (Oct. 30) used Gregorian Mass VIII. St. Michael’s Solemn High Masses in October, 2004 and Christmas Day, 2005 were Gregorian, too. This Christmas Day happens to be the first Solemn High Mass in the region in 35 years that is not Gregorian.

A Mass with Sacred Polyphony and optionally an orchestra can be a marvelous experience on special occasions. My personal favorite is Vierne’s Messe Solennelle.

But if you don’t care for Polyphonic Masses, don’t worry.
The majority of Solemn High Masses out there are accompanied by Gregorian Chant. You wouldn’t tell McDonalds to “bring back” burgers just because you saw someone order a Filet of Fish.
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Pope Saint Pius X loved Gregorian Chant. He wanted it resurrected, because for years in Europe there had been High Masses accompanied by enormous orchestras, and the music overwhelmed the actual Mass!😦 There was another thread on the CA Forums about what musical setting of Mass does a person prefer, and there were comments that basically said that these symphonic Mass settings are not appropriate for accompanying real Masses.

I don’t think that I have EVER been to a Solemn High Mass that has Gregorian Chant exclusively, maybe once, but I wasn’t Catholic then, and I am not completely sure if it was all Gregorian.

Can’t they just have Solemn High Masses done exclusively in Gregorian Chant, NO polyphony, with all-male choirs, and accompanied ONLY by an organ? And am I the only one who thinks that when women do solos at Mass, they turn it into a performance?

Many High Masses have some polyphony and some Gregorian Chant, can’t there be a Mass that is COMPLETELY Gregorian?

I wish that there would be more all-male choirs in Churches, not just in seminaries. I would rather women not sing in choirs at all(and yes, I am a woman myself!).

I have noticed at Novus Ordo Churches (yes, I believe that the Novus Ordo Mass IS valid!:)) that when women are allowed to do something, such as distribute Holy Communion, they quickly dominate that particular activity.

As for women in choirs, maybe they don’t dominate choirs, but I really do prefer all-male choirs. I don’t care if the men can’t hit high notes, they can just sing an octave lower.

God didn’t make men to sound like women. I love the sound of an all-male choir. I believe that there was one at the Vatican to sing the Litany of the Saints when Pope John Paul II died.

I don’t hate women, I just prefer all-male choirs, singing Gregorian Chant!:amen:
 
GoLatin: Your preference has been made clear. Now let’s keep this thread on topic, please.
 
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