Deus Volt!

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ChrisR246

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Deus Volt! -God Wills It! the catch phrase, if you will, that launched the First Crusade. Was this (ie the call to the Crusades) an infallible statement by Pope Urban II? If so, what, if any, are the implications for the Church today?

(BTW, I just want to say that’s it’s great to have a website with so many well informed Catholics - if for no other reason then to be able to have discussions like this one.)
 
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ChrisR246:
Deus Volt! -God Wills It! the catch phrase, if you will, that launched the First Crusade. Was this (ie the call to the Crusades) an infallible statement by Pope Urban II? If so, what, if any, are the implications for the Church today?

(BTW, I just want to say that’s it’s great to have a website with so many well informed Catholics - if for no other reason then to be able to have discussions like this one.)
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NO.
Next to none
Agreed.
 
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quasimodo:
NO.
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Why? It seems to meet the requirements, as I understand it - he was certainly speaking as Pope, to all the Church, on an issue of FaithMorals.
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quasimodo:
Next to none
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Since your answer is “No”, I would agree that this is a logical conclusion.
 
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ChrisR246:
Why? It seems to meet the requirements, as I understand it - he was certainly speaking as Pope, to all the Church, on an issue of FaithMorals.

Since your answer is “No”, I would agree that this is a logical conclusion.
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FaithMorals? how so?
 
_Christopher_:
Presumably that it can be moral or immoral to engage in war depending on just war doctrine.
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Is a call to arms a teaching for the church for all time or is it a call to arms for a particular moment in history?
 
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quasimodo:
Is a call to arms a teaching for the church for all time or is it a call to arms for a particular moment in history?
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Not sure if ex cathedra teachings must be declared for all time or if it can be for specific situations. I know it binds on all the faithful…but is there temporal component?
 
Originally Posted by quasimodo
FaithMorals? how so?
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It would seem to be a matter of faith that God willed Christians to wage war to recapture the Holy Land.
*Originally posted by Christopher*Not sure if ex cathedra teachings must be declared for all time or if it can be for specific situations. I know it binds on all the faithful…but is there temporal component?
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Thank you. That’s a much clearer explanation of what I was trying to get at. 🙂
 
a call to arms is not a teaching about the faith…

trinity, immaculate conception, divinity of Christ are matters of faith

These things have always been true and will always be true.

a call to arms is just that. a call to arms. there is nothing in it, of content or form, that makes it fall into the relm of infallibility. it is not a teaching, it is a call to action, a call to arms. there is no definition, there is no infallibility. I am having trouble knowing how to phrase an answer here because the idea that this might be infallible is so odd to me.
 
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quasimodo:
a call to arms is not a teaching about the faith…

trinity, immaculate conception, divinity of Christ are matters of faith

These things have always been true and will always be true.

a call to arms is just that. a call to arms. there is nothing in it, of content or form, that makes it fall into the relm of infallibility. it is not a teaching, it is a call to action, a call to arms. there is no definition, there is no infallibility. I am having trouble knowing how to phrase an answer here because the idea that this might be infallible is so odd to me.
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It might not be a technical teaching, so to speak, but the Pope does hold some moral sway over his flock, no? (And even more so in the era of the first crusade.)

Personally I don’t know if it was a moral war or not. I’d like to learn more about it.
 
I agree, Quasimodo. When the pope speaks ex cathdra on matters of faith and morals, he’s proclaiming assent to an eternal dogma that can never be changed.

Going to war in a certain time and place for a certain reason doesn’t fit the bill. The only part of his statement that could have any moral implication would be the notion that it is just and right to free conquered peoples from an oppressive invader that won’t allow the free practice of religion.

Glenn in KC
 
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quasimodo:
a call to arms is not a teaching about the faith…

trinity, immaculate conception, divinity of Christ are matters of faith

These things have always been true and will always be true.

a call to arms is just that. a call to arms. there is nothing in it, of content or form, that makes it fall into the relm of infallibility. it is not a teaching, it is a call to action, a call to arms. there is no definition, there is no infallibility. I am having trouble knowing how to phrase an answer here because the idea that this might be infallible is so odd to me.
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Put that way, it makes a lot of sense. I hadn’t considered it that way.

I looked at it as, if it is God’s will that a war be fought to regain the Holy Land, then it reflects soemthing about God’s Nature and so increases the Faith.

But your explanation seems to make more sense.
 
Well, it depends on whether Peter’s chair was still in existence. 'Cause if he was sitting in Peter’s Chair when he said it, then he would have said it “from the Chair of Peter” and it would be an infallible statement, right? 😃

***Note: ** The preceding statement was a parody of fundamentalist objections to the doctrine of ex cathedra. *
 
The Barrister:
Well, it depends on whether Peter’s chair was still in existence. 'Cause if he was sitting in Peter’s Chair when he said it, then he would have said it “from the Chair of Peter” and it would be an infallible statement, right? 😃

***Note: *** The preceding statement was a parody of fundamentalist objections to the doctrine of ex cathedra.
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Only if he was also wearing the shoes of the fisherman too 😉
 
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ChrisR246:
Deus Volt! -God Wills It! the catch phrase, if you will, that launched the First Crusade. Was this (ie the call to the Crusades) an infallible statement by Pope Urban II? If so, what, if any, are the implications for the Church today?

(
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That was not said by Urban II but was said by the crowd, Noblemen of Europes (Kings, Knights etc), in response to Urban II’s call fro Crusade.

And I think it was “Deus Vult!”
 
It might not have been said by Urban, but it expressed his sentiment. Part of his sermon:

“…On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ’s heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it. …”

(Bold added by me)

I was trying to get at the actual call for the Crusade, not the actual phrase “Deus Vult”.

As to the misspelling, I apologize.
 
The Pope can never be infallible when declaring a war.

Any war, whether it be the War with Iraq or the Crusades, is not in itself a matter of faith or morals. What is an article of faith/morals are the principles of just war. These principles are inerrant and do belong to the Church’s deposit of faith.

Whether or not these principles apply to any particular war, even the Crusades, is a matter of prudential judgement. And in these popes can err.

That having been said, I do believe that the Crusades fit the requirements for a just well, even though many sinful atrocities were commited during them.
 
What is an article of faith/morals are the principles of just war. These principles are inerrant and do belong to the Church’s deposit of faith.
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really! have you any proof of this? it is the first time I have ever seen this claimed
 
really! have you any proof of this? it is the first time I have ever seen this claimed
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They belong to the Church’s authentic Ordinary Magisteirum.

If the Church has erred on this, then for centuries she has been teaching a false teaching, leading innumerable members of her flock into sin, possibly eternal damnation.
 
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