Deutero-canonical / Apocryphal Books

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Byzman said:
Well that is not good to be making such claims and not be able to answer them when asked.
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Indeed an observation everyone accepts,except Rightlydivide who continues to dance around them. A clear sign he has no proof. Oh wait! Josephus is the ‘proof’ rebuking centuries of biblical history. Please! :ehh:
 
Rightlydivide,

Thanks for your patience with all these questions. I’m sure it must get overwhelming, but I actually have a few more questions for you (and anyone else, for that matter):
  1. If Josephus’ comments in Against Apion are evidence of a closed canon, then how is it that the New Testament came to accepted as inspired by Jewish Christians in Palestine?
  2. If Josephus rejected the canonicity of the deuteros, why did he quote from them so much in Antiquities of the Jews, a work wherein at the end, Josephus himself affirms that his only authorities have been the sacred writings?
  3. Most importantly, if all prophecy ceased long before the New Testament, **why did so many people in Jesus’ times assume that He and others were prophets? **
Thanks in advance!
 
Rightlydivide said:
No. I simply established that in 30 AD there was scripture. Accepted scripture. I have not said that it was closed because Jesus quoted it.
Please show me where I said that.
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Wait a minute! Are you finally admitting the OT canon was NOT fixed and closed BEFORE Jesus?
 
I am sorry earlier in one of my posts I said that Josephus used the word “canon” also. I was wrong. He never used that term. Just wanted to get that out in the open. So it indeed was only the Church that applied that word to the Scriptures. Interesting that we look to the Church for the Canon of Scripture. Isn’t it!?
 
Rightlydivide said:
No. I simply established that in 30 AD there was scripture. Accepted scripture. I have not said that it was closed because Jesus quoted it.
Please show me where I said that.
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Of course by the time of Christ was here and founded His Church that there were accepted Scriptures. I don’t think anyone in these forums is going to debate that with you. Closed Canon is the issue were are debating… right?
 
Rightly,

I will try ONCE more, and then let it go if you refuse to answer.

I am hoping the following will “force” you to answer the questions I am about to pose. I see now that my mistake was in allowing you “wiggle room” by playing a semantics game, instead of focusing on what I call the “delivery mechanism” in which the sacred scriptures made it to humans.
  1. We Catholics believe that scripture came from the Holy Spirit.
  2. We Catholics believe that the writers of scripture were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
  3. We Catholics believe that Jesus and his Apostles recognized scripture when they saw it and quoted from it.
Now, considering the “givens” that the Holy Spirit served as the writers’ inspiration for writing the Bible - both OT and NT - and that Jesus and his Apostles recognized scripture when they saw it (particularly after the Apostles received the special “gift” from God during Pentecost), I sincerely and humbly request that you answer the following questions:
  1. How did the Holy Spirit serve as inspiration for the OT canon? Put another way, were the “authors” of the OT scriptures physically HANDED to them the OT scriptures, already written, by the Holy Spirit, or did the Holy Spirit “enter” into the hearts and minds of the writers and then, through this “entrance”, inspire the authors to actually put “pen to paper” and write the OT scriptures?
  2. Regardless of HOW the OT scriptures came to be (in other words, regardless of your answer to question No. 1 above), would you please tell me WHEN EACH OT BOOK that YOU consider to be the OT canon, was “accepted” as OT canon? I don’t need a month or day - but I would like a specific year.
  3. If you answer No. 2 above, then that means you have provided us with a date that the OT was “accepted” as OT canon. Question No. 3 - this question - focuses on “authority”: by what AUTHORITY did humans declare that the OT canon was finally closed? In other words, if you say that “Josephus” is “a” or “the” person who can be cited as someone who “recognized” OT scriptures as the OT canon, please tell me WHO authorized Josephus (or anyone else you name) to be able to make such a pronouncement?
  4. Finally, WHO (and remember, it is a GIVEN that the Holy Spirit is the foundation/(name removed by moderator)iration of all of the OT canon, so don’t answer the question with that obvious starting point), among HUMANS, declared that the OT canon was closed?
I really, really look forward to your answers. I am pretty sure that these questions, as framed, do NOT give you much, if any, “wiggle room” for answering. They are pointed, and if you answer, you will be asked for your PROOF for each answer - so providing the proof when you answer will help move this along faster.
 
Rightlydivide said:
I am presenting facts. Two so far. Not everyone is impressed with them yet. But give them time. They will be running out to buy a KJV by the time I am done. And I would not begrudge anyone buying the one with the Apocrypha. Habits are hard to break.
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Hey Rightly,

I’ve been keeping up with this discussion as best I could. I come from a protestant background and MY habit is to go out and want to by an NIV because they’re pretty and easy to read. After reading this arguments on this thread, you might be happy to hear that I have broken my habit…and have ordered a Revised Standard Version-2nd Catholic Edition. Habits aren’t that hard to drop when you are looking for the truth.

PS

I would have gotten KJV but its too darn hard to read!
 
Rightlydivide said:
No. I simply established that in 30 AD there was scripture. Accepted scripture. I have not said that it was closed because Jesus quoted it.
Please show me where I said that.
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Ok, granted that you have never said that, please provide me proofs that there was Scripture before 30 AD?
 
Rightlydivide said:
What makes it is opinion instead of a fact?
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So what makes it fact rather than opinion?

You’ve stated Josephus’ opinion, which means nothing until you establish his credentials. He was a historian, not a religious leader in Judaism. Nowhere will you find that he was involved with setting the Jewish Old Testament Canon.

As for the other “point” – can you show, anywhere, a list accepted Old Testament books in the New Testament?
 
Rightlydivide said:
I am presenting facts. Two so far. Not everyone is impressed with them yet. But give them time. They will be running out to buy a KJV by the time I am done. And I would not begrudge anyone buying the one with the Apocrypha. Habits are hard to break.
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Sure… “facts.” You’ve stated Josephus’ opinion (and no one denies that he had that opinon) and you’ve told us that the New Testament somehow provides a list of Old Testament Canon. So far I’ve seen absolutely no evidence presented for that “fact.”

As for the King James Bible, I already own one. I love the flowery language – it’s what I grew up with – but I don’t use it because it is a defective translation.
 
WFS5801 said:
Sure… “facts.” You’ve stated Josephus’ opinion (and no one denies that he had that opinon) and you’ve told us that the New Testament somehow provides a list of Old Testament Canon. So far I’ve seen absolutely no evidence presented for that “fact.”

As for the King James Bible, I already own one. I love the flowery language – it’s what I grew up with – but I don’t use it because it is a defective translation.
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I do have a KJV too, being a Catholic revert after all and I must admit the beauty of its language, although using it for Scripture reading can cause quite headaches.
 
dje101 said:
Hey Rightly,

I’ve been keeping up with this discussion as best I could. I come from a protestant background and MY habit is to go out and want to by an NIV because they’re pretty and easy to read. After reading this arguments on this thread, you might be happy to hear that I have broken my habit…and have ordered a Revised Standard Version-2nd Catholic Edition. Habits aren’t that hard to drop when you are looking for the truth.

PS

I would have gotten KJV but its too darn hard to read!
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Good for you. I own a RSV CE 2nd Ignatius 2nd Edition…👍
 
WFS5801 said:
So what makes it fact rather than opinion?

You’ve stated Josephus’ opinion, which means nothing until you establish his credentials. He was a historian, not a religious leader in Judaism. Nowhere will you find that he was involved with setting the Jewish Old Testament Canon.

As for the other “point” – can you show, anywhere, a list accepted Old Testament books in the New Testament?
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Good luck! I already asked Rightlydivide to provide Josephus credentials and as usual-no response and silence. 🤷
 
dje101 said:
Hey Rightly,

I’ve been keeping up with this discussion as best I could. I come from a protestant background and MY habit is to go out and want to by an NIV because they’re pretty and easy to read. After reading this arguments on this thread, you might be happy to hear that I have broken my habit…and have ordered a Revised Standard Version-2nd Catholic Edition. Habits aren’t that hard to drop when you are looking for the truth.

PS

I would have gotten KJV but its too darn hard to read!
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This post must not go unnoticed. You will enjoy this version! I have the the 2nd edition also and very much enjoy it! Enjoy having the Scriptures that were always regarded as Scripture!
 
Byzman said:
This post must not go unnoticed. You will enjoy this version! I have the the 2nd edition also and very much enjoy it! Enjoy having the Scriptures that were always regarded as Scripture!
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I’m planning on it.
👍😃
 
UnityofTrinity said:
I do have a KJV too, being a Catholic revert after all and I must admit the beauty of its language, although using it for Scripture reading can cause quite headaches.
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I actually like the language of the KJV – in some ways it’s more concise than modern English. (This could be because I kind of “grew up with it.”) But what you gain in the “poetry” of the language, you lose in accuracy. The Douay-Rheims even mentions this principle in it’s original 1582 Preface.
This we profess only, that we have done our endeavor with prayer, much fear, and trembling, lest we should dangerously err in so sacred, high, and divine a work; that we have done it with all faith, diligence, and sincerity; that we have used no partiality for the disadvantage of our adversaries, nor no more license than is sufferable in translating of Holy Scriptures, continually keeping ourselves as near as is possible to our text and to the very words and phrases which by long use are made venerable, though to some profane or delicate ears they may seem more hard or barbarous, as the whole style of Scripture doth probably to such at the beginning (See St Augustine, Confessions, book 3, chapter 5), acknowledging with St Jerome that in other writings it is enough to give in translation sense for sense, but that in Scriptures, lest we miss the sense, we must keep the very words (To Pammachius, Epistle 101, chapter 2, beginning).
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(Emphasis mine)

bombaxo.com/douai-nt.html
 
. . . Not suggesting that Rightly has an obligation to respond to my questions in my previous post to him, or that mine should take precedence over any others asked of him . . . but still waiting for a response almost 5 hours later.

I am really hoping to see a response, made in good faith.
 
Rightlydivide said:
You posted an opinion essentially. A popular opinion. A highly regarded and generally accepted by scholars opinion. But I did not see any real content to delve into. It simply asserted it as fact as opposed to presenting evidence. I am presenting the other side in my methodical way. Was there anything in particular data wise or factual your post presented I should delve into in my case?
Thanks. Have a good day.
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Rightly… :confused:

If quoting from “The New Jerome Biblical Commentary” is simply opinion, then how can we take anything you say as more than mere opinion? Where have you provided any evidence?

As to your question, “Was there anything in particular data wise or factual your post presented I should delve into in my case?”, I would suggest checking out the bibliography of chapter 66 CANONICITY 2 Canon of the OT:

Just to start with…
Beckwith, R.T. The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church (GR, 1985)
Blenkinsopp, J. Prophecy and Canon (Notre Dame, 1977)
Childs, B.S. Introduction to the Old Testament as Scripture (Phl 1979)

There is much more!

I have yet to see you provide any “evidence” as you seem to require from others.
 
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