Deutero-canonical / Apocryphal Books

[Rightlydivide]

Rightly says in response to my questions, after I specifically stated as a “given” that God/Holy Spirit were the authors of sacred scripture and that sacred scripture came FROM God/Holy Spirit:

“Your questions reflect a presupposition that people form a canon as opposed to recognizing it. They (your questions) suffer from Catholic anachronistic thinking that humans have more authority than what God gave them. So I will present facts from history to show that the Jews and early Christians adhered to a different canon that based upon the data can be shown to be closed. I frame my case as I see fit. I do not let others frame my case.”

I retire, but am somewhat annoyed that you are, according to you, in a position where you “grade papers”, which I assume means you are a teacher.

I hope MY tax dollars are not going to the school where I teach . . .

You fought hard kid. Thanks for participating. I think I am down to two. Some people throw some rejoinders in there but I cannot say they are active participants. I suppose we are approaching point four.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Oh and does 1 Esdras of the LXX being considered Scripture by some of the Fathers shake my foundations?..No, because I am Byzantine Catholic…the LXX is part of our tradition. I have the OSB and I read 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, Psalm 151, and, most importantly, the Prayer of Manasseh(which I pray), as (name removed by moderator)sired Scripture. The Fathers at Trent passed over on voting these books…why? Possibly because these books are not part of their tradition. Hippo and Carthage were not Ecumenical Councils, therefore only bound to western Churches.

So you recognize a larger canon than the Latin Catholics?

 

[Byzman]

So you recognize a larger canon than the Latin Catholics?

Yes I do. Am I right? I dont know. There has never been a definitive proclamation as with the Council of Trent did with the 7 Deuterocanonical Books generally known only in the West.

 

[Byzman]

Rightly says in response to my questions, after I specifically stated as a “given” that God/Holy Spirit were the authors of sacred scripture and that sacred scripture came FROM God/Holy Spirit:

“Your questions reflect a presupposition that people form a canon as opposed to recognizing it. They (your questions) suffer from Catholic anachronistic thinking that humans have more authority than what God gave them. So I will present facts from history to show that the Jews and early Christians adhered to a different canon that based upon the data can be shown to be closed. I frame my case as I see fit. I do not let others frame my case.”

I retire, but am somewhat annoyed that you are, according to you, in a position where you “grade papers”, which I assume means you are a teacher.

I hope MY tax dollars are not going to the school where I teach . . .

Salvatore, don’t retire, even though he hasnt answered your questions…hang in there! Sometimes it takes many people longer times than others to get over their misconceptions…I know this because I do it too. But he said he is ready to move on to point four. Let’s see what he has to say and then lets offer a refutation not to convince but provide an honest answer as to what Catholics believe.

 

[po18guy]

The contents of the LXX at the time of Christ are unknown. The earliest existing versions 300 years later disagreed so no one should be too certain about what the LXX did or did not contain 300 years earlier. There is simply no evidence either way.
Your thoughts?

My brother, here is my thinking on this: We accept the Book of Deuteronomy, or ‘second law’. Was the first law therefore insufficient? Is Deuteronomy sufficient solely because it is attributed to Moses? Its author is unknown - what is known is that the book was edited by unknown editors long after its unknown writer composed it. Does this not call its authenticity into serious question? And, the seven DC books are called deuterocanon only because an admittedly rebellious Augustinain monk declared them non-canonical by his own authority. This placed the Church is the unenviable position of being forced to combat heresy by declaring the DC canonical. Yes, we know about Jerome’s opinion of the DC, but God’s truth is not dependent upon what two men in recorded history think about any given subject. If we are going to trust the Church with any portion of the bible, then we must also trust her with all of it. “Those faithful in small maters will be faithful in large.” Christ’s Sacred Body on earth, His Church, is bigger than the opinions of two men - Jerome or Luther, you or I.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Yes I do. Am I right? I dont know. There has never been a definitive proclamation as with the Council of Trent did with the 7 Deuterocanonical Books generally known only in the West.

I was not that familiar with Eastern Catholics and their canon. It seems to similiar (as it would be) with the EOC.

 

[Rightlydivide]

My brother, here is my thinking on this: We accept the Book of Deuteronomy, or ‘second law’. Was the first law therefore insufficient? Is Deuteronomy sufficient solely because it is attributed to Moses? Its author is unknown - what is known is that the book was edited by unknown editors long after its unknown writer composed it. Does this not call its authenticity into serious question? And, the seven DC books are called deuterocanon only because an admittedly rebellious Augustinain monk declared them non-canonical by his own authority. This placed the Church is the unenviable position of being forced to combat heresy by declaring the DC canonical. Yes, we know about Jerome’s opinion of the DC, but God’s truth is not dependent upon what two men in recorded history think about any given subject. If we are going to trust the Church with any portion of the bible, then we must also trust her with all of it. “Those faithful in small maters will be faithful in large.” Christ’s Sacred Body on earth, His Church, is bigger than the opinions of two men - Jerome or Luther, you or I.

The author is not unknown. Jesus told us who it was.

 

[Salvatore123]

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders lists the following as one of six types of delusional behavior:

“Grandiose Type: delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge [Rightly claims to KNOW things without proof of them], identity or believes himself/herself to be a famous person [although not explicit, Rightly is now the arbiter of how to read the bible and determine what is or is not in the ‘real bible’], claiming the actual person [Catholic Church with Bishop of Rome as its head] is an imposter or an impersonator [Rightly states the Catholic Church has been impersonating someone with authority to determine interpretation of the bible].”

Geez! If I had known this before, I would have never jumped into this thread . . .

P.S. - saw this AFTER I had already posted my response above:

“The author is not unknown. Jesus told us who it was.”

I couldn’t let this one go . . . I wonder, if Moses is truly the author of the entire Pentatuech, with no other authors/editors, how did he write about his own death and the events that occurred after his death, while he was still alive???

 

[po18guy]

Your questions reflect a presupposition that people form a canon as opposed to recognizing it. They (your questions) suffer from Catholic anachronistic thinking that humans have more authority than what God gave them. So I will present facts from history to show that the Jews and early Christians adhered to a different canon that based upon the data can be shown to be closed. I frame my case as I see fit. I do not let others frame my case.

Rhetorical question: Who died and left you in charge of the canon? Who left Luther in charge? Someone died and left a Church in charge, and that Church called councils and argued all available writings. After using God’s winnowing fan to separate the wheat from the chaff, the only Godly authority on earth - the Church, reduced those writings to what we know as the universal bible.

Yet, certain ego-driven individuals in their rebellion were not satisfied and tinkered with God’s word - word which had been proclaimed since before Christ.

For those who preach scriptural Calvinism - that the 66 book bible was pre-destined, coming directly from God, I say: God was here among us. He had the chance to leave a bible if He wanted to. He did not. Knowing that the devil quoted scripture, He left a Church. In the case of the bible, you either trust His Church, or you trust the demon of ego.

 

[po18guy]

The author is not unknown. Jesus told us who it was.

The human hands who wrote and edited it. Did He name them?

You are a scriptural Calvinist then? Did Jesus name Calvin, too?

 

[po18guy]

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders lists the following as one of six types of delusional behavior:

“Grandiose Type: delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge [Rightly claims to KNOW things without proof of them], identity or believes himself/herself to be a famous person [although not explicit, Rightly is now the arbiter of how to read the bible and determine what is or is not in the ‘real bible’], claiming the actual person [Catholic Church with Bishop of Rome as its head] is an imposter or an impersonator [Rightly states the Catholic Church has been impersonating someone with authority to determine interpretation of the bible].”

Geez! If I had known this before, I would have never jumped into this thread . . .

P.S. - saw this AFTER I had already posted my response above:

“The author is not unknown. Jesus told us who it was.”

I couldn’t let this one go . . . I wonder, if Moses is truly the author of the entire Pentatuech, with no other authors/editors, how did he write about his own death and the events that occurred after his death, while he was still alive???

Even though I just set foot here, I think it may be time to shake the dust off of our sandals as a testimony. I will not stop praying for him, though.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders lists the following as one of six types of delusional behavior:

“Grandiose Type: delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge [Rightly claims to KNOW things without proof of them], identity or believes himself/herself to be a famous person [although not explicit, Rightly is now the arbiter of how to read the bible and determine what is or is not in the ‘real bible’], claiming the actual person [Catholic Church with Bishop of Rome as its head] is an imposter or an impersonator [Rightly states the Catholic Church has been impersonating someone with authority to determine interpretation of the bible].”

Geez! If I had known this before, I would have never jumped into this thread . . .

P.S. - saw this AFTER I had already posted my response above:

“The author is not unknown. Jesus told us who it was.”

I couldn’t let this one go . . . I wonder, if Moses is truly the author of the entire Pentatuech, with no other authors/editors, how did he write about his own death and the events that occurred after his death, while he was still alive???

Moses is the author. There is a tiny bit added after his death. Its author (ie the person who wrote it) is not unknown. The editor of the very last is unknown.
As far as me being mentally ill…I obviously do not think I am. However, most people who are mentally ill probably are not aware of that. Regardless, despite the flippant manner of those who resort to personal attacks and making fun of people with disabilities, I will continue to post and defend our views.
Now, I think I am ready for point four. I will make sure and answer the last few questions and so forth first though. I do not wish to be rude obviously

 

[Byzman]

Now, I think I am ready for point four. I will make sure and answer the last few questions and so forth first though. I do not wish to be rude obviously

Yes please move onto the 4th point please…because the previous points you have brought up hasn’t persuaded the rewriting of history.

For Sirach was once mentioned as being among the “writings” of the Jews.

Babylonian Talmud, Seder Nazikin, Baba Kamma 92b

Raba [again] said to Rabbah b. Mari: whence can be derived the popular saying, ‘A bad palm will usually make its way to a grove of barren trees’? – He replied: This matter was written in the Pentateuch, repeated in the Prophets, mentioned a third time in the Hagiographa, and also learnt in a Mishnah and taught in a baraitha: It is stated in the Pentateuch as written, So Esau went unto Ishmael [Genesis 28:9], repeated in the prophets, as written, And there gathered themselves to Jephthah idle men and they went out with him [Judges 11:3], mentioned a third time in the Hagiographa, as written: Every fowl dwells near its kind and man near his equal [Sirach 13:15];

The canon of scripture for the Old Testament was not closed by the time of Sirach.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia(a work by protestant Scholars)

These are explicit and definite allusions to the threefold division of the Old Testament writings, yet only the titles of the first and second divisions are the technical names usually employed; the third is especially vague because of his use of the terms, “the other books of the Fathers,” and “the rest of the books.” However, he evidently refers to writings with religious contents; and, by “the other books of the Fathers,” he can hardly be supposed to have meant an indefinite number, though he has not told us which they were or what was their number. From his further statement that his grandfather, having immersed himself in the Law and the Prophets, and other books of the Fathers, felt drawn on also himself to write something for the profit of others, it may be inferred that in his time there was as yet no definite gulf fixed between canonical writings and those of other men, and that the sifting process was still going on (compare W. R. Smith, OTJC2, 178- 79).

So please offer us a more convincing argument.

 

[Salvatore123]

Rightly,

I never accused you or anyone else of being mentally ill. I cited the DSM as MY opinion that you have engaged in delusional BEHAVIOR with your refusal to answer easy questions and act as though they had never been asked.

I don’t ridicule people who have been diagnosed by a physician as being mentally ill.

When questioners respond in good faith to YOUR questions, we expected that you would do the same for us . . . but we were wrong.

You then mock US for your supposed “winning” of this debate/discussion.

If you really believe you have proven or won your “point” (whatever in the world that might be right now), then I stand by my citation of the DSM . . .

 

[Rightlydivide]

Rightly,

I never accused you or anyone else of being mentally ill. I cited the DSM as MY opinion that you have engaged in delusional BEHAVIOR with your refusal to answer easy questions and act as though they had never been asked.

I don’t ridicule people who have been diagnosed by a physician as being mentally ill.

When questioners respond in good faith to YOUR questions, we expected that you would do the same for us . . . but we were wrong.

You then mock US for your supposed “winning” of this debate/discussion.

If you really believe you have proven or won your “point” (whatever in the world that might be right now), then I stand by my citation of the DSM . . .

I have attempted to respond to the questions over and over again. I did not respond to the one that frames the question in a manner I do not agree with. It presupposes that human councils or hands can close a canon. They cannot. Only God can. Outside of that I have been sidetracked time and time again by questions. I have tried to answer them.
I tend to answer Byzman more becaue he seems smart and asks good questions. I had to answer that one person becaue they were attempting to state that Moses is not the author despite Jesus telling us he was. I had to actually go into an explaination of how authorship and editor differ. Despite everyone knowing what I meant. I have had to explain how certain views attributed to me are not me.
So I ribbed you a little about winning. I like to do that with Nicea because he gets so emotional…its fun to watch. He tries to get under my skin but it just doesn’t. Its too thick. That might make me a little bit of a jerk, something I would not deny, but certainly not delusional.
Instead of whining, why not particpate in the content? Besides, I thought you were quiting like you said two or three times. Am I supposed to respond or not? I cannot keep up.
There is still some more content to address prior to point four it appears. I would like to get to that content if you would kindly please let me.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Yes please move onto the 4th point please…because the previous points you have brought up hasn’t persuaded the rewriting of history.

For Sirach was once mentioned as being among the “writings” of the Jews.

Babylonian Talmud, Seder Nazikin, Baba Kamma 92b

The canon of scripture for the Old Testament was not closed by the time of Sirach.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia(a work by protestant Scholars)

So please offer us a more convincing argument.

Can you provide a link to this in Hebrew? I want to read it in context.

 

[Byzman]

I have attempted to respond to the questions over and over again. I did not respond to the one that frames the question in a manner I do not agree with. It presupposes that human councils or hands can close a canon. They cannot. Only God can. Outside of that I have been sidetracked time and time again by questions. I have tried to answer them.
I tend to answer Byzman more becaue he seems smart and asks good questions. I had to answer that one person becaue they were attempting to state that Moses is not the author despite Jesus telling us he was. I had to actually go into an explaination of how authorship and editor differ. Despite everyone knowing what I meant. I have had to explain how certain views attributed to me are not me.
So I ribbed you a little about winning. I like to do that with Nicea because he gets so emotional…its fun to watch. He tries to get under my skin but it just doesn’t. Its too thick. That might make me a little bit of a jerk, something I would not deny, but certainly not delusional.
Instead of whining, why not particpate in the content? Besides, I thought you were quiting like you said two or three times. Am I supposed to respond or not? I cannot keep up.
There is still some more content to address prior to point four it appears. I would like to get to that content if you would kindly please let me.

You have ignored their questions though and you are admitting it. You stated your reason as to why. I think in order to get the the truth of the matter these questions should be answered. We have responded to everything you have put forward.

 

[Byzman]

Can you provide a link to this in Hebrew? I want to read it in context.

I hope this helps… I cant read Hebrew. But according to Wikipedia you can do searches here.
kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/tr/t0101.htm

If that is not it…Wikipedia has some websites in Hebrew including the pages of the Babylonian Talmud.

 

[Byzman]

I did not respond to the one that frames the question in a manner I do not agree with. It presupposes that human councils or hands can close a canon. They cannot. Only God can.

Interesting that you take a position such as to this. I ask than, if it is only God that does what you say, why does he use human authors to write His Book…couldn’t he use humans to compile His Book the way he uses humans to write(compose)?

 

[Salvatore123]

Rightly,

I DID quit the discussion of the topics when I last said . . . I responded only to your explanation for your behavior.

And I am responding to your last post to me because I simply cannot allow you, sir, to (and I am going to be diplomatic about this) continue to not tell the truth about what I have stated and what I have asked.

I have NEVER said that God or the Holy Spirit are not the ONE’s SPEAKING in terms of sacred scripture.

I told you THAT WAS A GIVEN.

And you write your last post with the insintuation that people such as myself have denied Divine authorship of the scriptures and the canon. We have NEVER done that - NEVER.

But in your last post, you give yourself away: “I did not respond to the one that frames the question in a manner I do not agree with.”

That, quite frankly, is the boldest, yet most laughable, response to a question I have ever posed in my life: “I am not going to respond to a question because I don’t like the way it is asked.”

So you finally acknowledge you were asked uncomfortable questions, that you didn’t answer them, and that the REASON why is that you don’t like the “way they were asked”.

You could not even respond to a question that, in the way it is framed, presupposes what no one has dispute: that God is the author of sacred scripture and that He closed the canon.

The question I am talking about is: WHAT TYPE OF “DELIVERY MECHANISM” DID GOD EMPLOY TO COMMUNICATE HIS OT CANON TO MANKIND AND TO WHOM/WHEN WAS THIS DONE?

There is NOTHING improper or deceitful or anything else wrong with that question. You don’t like it because you don’t know.

If you did, you would answer. It is simply too easy to answer, based on the “facts” you claim you have at your fingertips and that are so obvious.

This was never a matter of who “won” or “lost”. It was a matter of credibility. And although I will readily acknowledge my shortcomings - and I have MANY - your intransigent arrogance is simply astounding. At least I attribute my ultimate conclusions to God as the originator.

You, sir, have not even had the courtesy to tell anyone how God told mankind what you say he told them and to whom and when this was done.