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WFS5801
Guest
Interesting quote found in the Jewish Encyclopdia.
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UnityofTrinity
Guest
Rightly my friend, I do wonder this, if the Old Testament is indeed closed simply because Jesus Christ quoted some books from it, what about books that Jesus never quoted from?(Songs of Solomon, Obadiah…) How do you determine that? It is of course no surprise seeing Jesus quoting the Torah, both Saducees and Pharisees quoted the Torah. Torah, overall, was not only laws on spiritual matters, but also social matters(a Jewish Constituion if you can call it that).
However, quoting from something is not the same as determining if something belongs in Scripture. Overall, Jude quoted the Book of Enoch, while Paul quoted from the Ascension of Moses. Jesus Himself and the Jews refer to the Deterocanonical using the book of Maccabees when I participated the Season of Light(Hanukkah, which still celebrated now) and traditions(the seat of Moses). Not just from Scripture, Paul himself quoted from pagan Greek philosophers many times in his epistles(which could be found many times in ancient Christian writings).
So how do you determine this? Admittedly without the Church, it is beyond impossible to know how they did this. Again, how do you know there were no deuteros in the Bible? Didn’t you by your own lips confessed that we do not know the content of the earliest Deuteros? I don’t get this, and I would love some clarifications. Thankfully, we have not just a long tradition of the Church, but also historical scholarship to help us understand how tScripture got here. Thank God.
I should also remind you that the Deutoero position is not only upheld by the Catholic Church, but also by the Greek speaking Eastern Church, both Catholic and Orthodox. Isn’t it strange that both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church, both mutually excommunicated each other have these books? Strange huh?
However, quoting from something is not the same as determining if something belongs in Scripture. Overall, Jude quoted the Book of Enoch, while Paul quoted from the Ascension of Moses. Jesus Himself and the Jews refer to the Deterocanonical using the book of Maccabees when I participated the Season of Light(Hanukkah, which still celebrated now) and traditions(the seat of Moses). Not just from Scripture, Paul himself quoted from pagan Greek philosophers many times in his epistles(which could be found many times in ancient Christian writings).
So how do you determine this? Admittedly without the Church, it is beyond impossible to know how they did this. Again, how do you know there were no deuteros in the Bible? Didn’t you by your own lips confessed that we do not know the content of the earliest Deuteros? I don’t get this, and I would love some clarifications. Thankfully, we have not just a long tradition of the Church, but also historical scholarship to help us understand how tScripture got here. Thank God.
I should also remind you that the Deutoero position is not only upheld by the Catholic Church, but also by the Greek speaking Eastern Church, both Catholic and Orthodox. Isn’t it strange that both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church, both mutually excommunicated each other have these books? Strange huh?
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UnityofTrinity
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Well, I do hope so too friend, sometimes I wonder if Protestants are like Muslims. I think many just never get to think how the Bible get here, they might have thought it just here by itself kinda, God just threw it from heaven, kinda like how Allah revealed the Qu’ran to Muhammad.
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WFS5801
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Josephus expressed his opinion, nothing more (and his “Canon” was not the same as the current Jewish Canon). And nowhere in the New Testament does it say which Old Testament books were Scripture.
So, if these are your points, one and two, they’re bogus.
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WFS5801
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But at least that’s an explanation. Protestants just believe that, somehow, God had a hand in handing down the “pure” Scripture (i.e., the part of it that they accept). And they accepted (and rejected) on the authority of their own private interpretation – since each is supposedly “led by the Holy Ghost.” That, in effect, makes each one his own infallible Pope. The principle of private interpretation breaks down, however, because not every one who is supposedly “led by the Holy Spirit” interprets the Scripture the same. It’s a delusion.
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Poco
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Rightly, I’m curious as to why you have avoided responding to a couple of my recent posts? 
Specifically posts #158 and #185.
Could it be because they provide evidence the Judaic canon was still “open” while you claim it was “closed”?
Specifically posts #158 and #185.Could it be because they provide evidence the Judaic canon was still “open” while you claim it was “closed”?
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Byzman
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I wonder, since Josephus is mentioned here so much, if his list of canonical books would have included the Epistle of Jeremiah and Baruch. Alot of Fathers, when siding with the Jews of the Canon, when mentioning their lists of Canonical Scripture, usually included these books along with Jeremiah and Lamentataions. Than again there is no way of knowing since he never left us his list of the Canon.
Another interesting point is that Josephus used the term “canon.” The word canon is a Greek word, not a Hebrew word. Yes, Josephus wrote in Greek and he lived in Alexandria, but still, this word distinctly is different from what the Jews in Palestine would have said. I do believe that the word “Canon” is not found in the Talmud, but again I could be wrong. I think from reading the Fathers of the Church that the word Canon means something different in the early formulative years of the Church than it does today, for they continue to quote from the Deuterocanonical Books, sometimes calling them Scripture, after they didnt acknowledge them as in the Canon. So my question is who first developed the notion of canon? Was it the Jews or the Christians? It is quite posssible that the early church treated the books of the OT, that the Jews accepted, as Canonical Scripture, but the others not in the “canon” also divinely inspired(At least, this is what I get from reading the Fathers).
Alot of people use the argument that the Book of Sirach mentions the 3 parts of the Jewish Scriptures, the Law, the Prophets, and the other writings…hence from this the Canon must have been closed by the Jews prior to this. I say, not so. It is quite possible that that Law and the Prophets were already “canonized,” but the other writings…there is no solid proof that this section is closed. In fact, the Book of Sirach is mentioned in the Talmud as “it is written” and mentioned among the “writings” after there is quotes taken from the Law and the prophets.
This evidence alone from the Talmud shows that the 3rd and final part from the OT of the Jewish Scriptures was not finalized and closed. All in all with that said the Catholic Church inherited all the books from the Jews, the Law, the Prophets, and the various other writings that were circulating at the time…which finally became known as our historical and wisdom books of Scripture.
Another interesting point is that Josephus used the term “canon.” The word canon is a Greek word, not a Hebrew word. Yes, Josephus wrote in Greek and he lived in Alexandria, but still, this word distinctly is different from what the Jews in Palestine would have said. I do believe that the word “Canon” is not found in the Talmud, but again I could be wrong. I think from reading the Fathers of the Church that the word Canon means something different in the early formulative years of the Church than it does today, for they continue to quote from the Deuterocanonical Books, sometimes calling them Scripture, after they didnt acknowledge them as in the Canon. So my question is who first developed the notion of canon? Was it the Jews or the Christians? It is quite posssible that the early church treated the books of the OT, that the Jews accepted, as Canonical Scripture, but the others not in the “canon” also divinely inspired(At least, this is what I get from reading the Fathers).
Alot of people use the argument that the Book of Sirach mentions the 3 parts of the Jewish Scriptures, the Law, the Prophets, and the other writings…hence from this the Canon must have been closed by the Jews prior to this. I say, not so. It is quite possible that that Law and the Prophets were already “canonized,” but the other writings…there is no solid proof that this section is closed. In fact, the Book of Sirach is mentioned in the Talmud as “it is written” and mentioned among the “writings” after there is quotes taken from the Law and the prophets.
This evidence alone from the Talmud shows that the 3rd and final part from the OT of the Jewish Scriptures was not finalized and closed. All in all with that said the Catholic Church inherited all the books from the Jews, the Law, the Prophets, and the various other writings that were circulating at the time…which finally became known as our historical and wisdom books of Scripture.
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Nicea325
Guest
No you are not right,but…WRONG! Prove WHAT? You have not prove nothing. I find it rather SAD how someone supposedly ‘grades’ papers is so elusive about answering the questions I and Salvatore posed? Why can’t you answer my questions Rightlydivide? Is your pride that thick you can allow yourself to admit you cannot answer them because you have absolutely not concrete evidence to rebuke my questions? All I see is a prideful fundamentalist who wants to REWRITE history so it can please his novelties and biased beliefs. Truly sad Rightlydivide you have failed to answer after countless attempts.
On the contrary, I am the one who will continue to prove you wrong for the next 1,000 replies. And I have done it rather easily by asking you questions you CANNOT answer.
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Humble_Pie
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That’s certainly a plausable theory, but since Josephus doesn’t specifically list the books he considers canonical, it’s an excercise in speculation.
So I’ll ask again, which one is wrong? Josephus or modern Jews?
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Rightlydivide
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I prefer to build my case my way. Anyway, I do think we are ready to move onto point three here in a bit
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Rightlydivide
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You posted an opinion essentially. A popular opinion. A highly regarded and generally accepted by scholars opinion. But I did not see any real content to delve into. It simply asserted it as fact as opposed to presenting evidence. I am presenting the other side in my methodical way. Was there anything in particular data wise or factual your post presented I should delve into in my case?Rightly, I’m curious as to why you have avoided responding to a couple of my recent posts?
Could it be because they provide evidence the Judaic canon was still “open” while you claim it was “closed”?
Thanks. Have a good day.
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Rightlydivide
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What makes it is opinion instead of a fact?
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Rightlydivide
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I didn’t say that.
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Rightlydivide
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I am presenting facts. Two so far. Not everyone is impressed with them yet. But give them time. They will be running out to buy a KJV by the time I am done. And I would not begrudge anyone buying the one with the Apocrypha. Habits are hard to break.
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Byzman
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You haven’t presented any facts that prove anything for your argument. Instead you have ignored the facts of the Talmud quoting Sirach and determining if Song of Solomon and Ecclesiastes defile the hands(is indeed scripture).
Did Josephus accept Esther as Canonical? Did Josephus accept Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremiah as Scripture?
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Nicea325
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No offense,but your above statement is almost comical. You have presented facts? But how ironic you cannot admit why you failed to answer Salvatore’s and mine questions? If you are CONFIDENT the OT canon was set before Jesus,then answering our questions would be a piece of cake since you have ALL THE EVIDENCE to answer them. But guess what? You have not…and why? Because your PRIDE does not allow you to admit you are DEAD WRONG!
BTW: I own about 4 KJV Bibles and nothing you have said will change history. Deal with it.
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Nicea325
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Byzman he will dodge and weave around questions that corner him…trust me. I had the same discussion a few months back he never answered my questions. Salvatore pretty asked the same questions and Rightlydivide ignored him and I see the same signs with me. A sign he is in denial and has no evidence to rebuke our questions.
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Byzman
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Well that is not good to be making such claims and not be able to answer them when asked.
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UnityofTrinity
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Yes, you kinda did, in fact I believe that’s your only 'proof" proving that there was a closed canon at this time, simply because Jesus quoted it
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Rightlydivide
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No. I simply established that in 30 AD there was scripture. Accepted scripture. I have not said that it was closed because Jesus quoted it.
Please show me where I said that.
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