Deuteronomy 30:11-14 supposedly makes jesus death uncessary or contradicts paul

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hello long time no post so i have been seeing some comments from jews and torah observant Christians and show how that scripture contradicts the new testament or church theology.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 : Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

so i always see this argument from jews or torah observant Christians

the first say that this prove jesus death and sacrifice was null because as other said if the torah was easy or not hard to follow jesus didnt need to die for us if we can keep the torah and be saved by law (this is the jewish argument)
  1. the torah observant Christians do say jesus death was necessary but the law still stands as they use this to show paul was wrong and not to be trusted as he created the whole law is not aplicable and not hard as thus paul lied
    (even though jews like tovia singer also make this argument that paul invited jesus sacrifice and misquoted this verse when in reality it contradicts them)
so what would be the response to the jewish and the torah observant chirstian ?
 
historyfan81 said:
the first say that this prove jesus death and sacrifice was null because as other said if the torah was easy or not hard to follow jesus didnt need to die for us if we can keep the torah and be saved by law (this is the jewish argument)
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If.

Sounds simple & easy enough in Deuteronomy, but shortly after it proves to be difficult on our own. Moses even failed to make it to the promised land. Solomon built the temple & he died in a precarious state. Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah were all talking to people who couldn’t do what sounds so easy in Deuteronomy.

Apart from Him, we can do nothing.
 
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We cannot reach perfect obedience to the law by our own efforts. For example if for even a split second in the whole of our lives our attention is turned away from God’s will, then we have not fully complied with the commandment to love God.

This is a lesson graphically illustrated by the story of the Tower of Babel. You cannot build your own way to him.
 
historyfan81 said:
the first say that this prove jesus death and sacrifice was null because as other said if the torah was easy or not hard to follow jesus didnt need to die for us if we can keep the torah and be saved by law (this is the jewish argument)
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Ecclesiastes 7:20
New International Version
20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous,
no one who does what is right and never sins.

Galatians 3:10
Good News Translation
10 Those who depend on obeying the Law live under a curse. For the scripture says, “Whoever does not always obey everything that is written in the book of the Law is under God’s curse!”
 
It is easy enough to follow the laws - but also to observe their spirit? Very difficult…

There’s some mystery here… and maybe more going on in those verses than meets the eye.
 
(I do no believe this but I will put myself as a non believer for the sake of this scenario of being an orthodox jew or torah observant chirstian )

YHWH keep my comandmets and laws (all 613) and love me says it’s not that difficult so if it’s not that difficult then that means it is possible therefore jesus death contradicts this

(The torah observant chirstian) yes but God has said it’s not difficult as god said it’s not that difficult to keep not it’s not that hard to understand
 
Your Jewish friends must be think they are addressing a Protestant, not a Catholic.

It is a Catholic dogma that God does not command the impossible and that He gives us all we need to obey the commandments. The opposite is a Protestant heresy condemned by the Church at the Council of Trent. The fact is, we don’t obey the commandments (Jews break them too), not that we can’t. Jesus saves us from those sins. Jews should be familiar with the idea of offering sacrifice for sin.
 
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To quote from Peter Enns ( as both Jews and torah observant chirstians use this to discredit paul)
Is basically that paul lied or distorted this because he made the notion that you must keep the whole of the law to quote ;

"Paul’s claim doesn’t sit well with the tone and tenor of the Old Testament. The Israelite legal system had ways of addressing individual failure to keep certain laws, some means of atonement or purification to remove the offense toward God.

Was it really the case that the ancient Israelites thought “all-or-nothing?”
Or does their very legal system assume the opposite, that “all-or-nothing” isn’t the deal?

And what to do with the passionate praise of the Law that we see in places like Psalm 1 and 119?

OK, but what about Deuteronomy 27:26, a passage right out of the Old Testament that Paul is citing to make his point?

Yes. Well. This is where it gets a bit interesting.

Benjamin D. Sommer points out in Revelation and Authority (p. 133; see also here and a few follow-up posts), that the word “all” is not in the Hebrew versions of Deuteronomy that we know of. It is, however, found in some manuscripts of the Samaritan Pentateuch and of the Greek translation (Septuagint) of Deuteronomy.

Paul, as was his custom, was likely working off of the Greek version that read “all.”

Not to make a mountain out of a molehill, here; I think Paul could still have made his basic point without “all.” But still, Paul is making his case using a translation that is probably not faithful to the original, and that can easily lead to readers like us to draw the conclusion:

Old Testament = Law = impossible to keep

which is not only a rather distorted reading of the Old Testament as a whole, but a simplistic reading of Paul, who has some quite positive things to say about the law now and then in his letters."
 
I don’t understand why this wouldn’t also then be applied to Moses receiving the Commandments from God?
 
Yes but would a jew respond if the torah is not that hard to keep and we can use sacrifice then jesus death is pointless and that as mentioned paul misquoted this and if the law is not only posible but not difficult to follow then we can achieve salvation by our selves by gods law
 
Do you see Jews offering sacrifices for their sins anywhere? They haven’t done so in nearly 2000 years. And yet, as the prophet foretold, a perfect sacrifice for sin is being offered from east to west from rising to the setting of the sun (by the Church of Christ.)

And again obeying the commandments can be said to both be easy or difficult. God gives us the means to do so, and we just need to do that. But as the entirety of Scripture shows, human beings have trouble with it.
 
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they would obviously deny the doctrine of attoment but I guess the final answer is that god gave the law persicelly and easily and they had to follow which they failed but a common counter argument to that and I have posted above is that paul invented the whole idea that to keep the law you must uphold all the law
 
Deuteronomy 28:15-24

Complete Jewish Bible

15 “But if you refuse to pay attention to what Adonai your God says, and do not observe and obey all his mitzvot and regulations which I am giving you today, then all the following curses will be yours in abundance:

16 “A curse on you in the city, and a curse on you in the countryside.

17 “A curse on your grain-basket and kneading-bowl.

18 “A curse on the fruit of your body, the fruit of your land and the young of your cattle and flocks.

19 “A curse on you when you come in, and a curse on you when you go out.

20 “ Adonai will send on you curses, disasters and frustration in everything you set out to do, until you are destroyed and quickly perish, because of your evil actions in abandoning me.

21 “ Adonai will bring on you a plague that will stay with you until he has exterminated you from the land you are entering in order to take possession of it. 22 Adonai will strike you down with wasting diseases, fever, inflammation, fiery heat, drought, blasting winds and mildew; and they will pursue you until you perish.

23 “The sky over your head will be brass and the earth under you iron. 24 Adonai will turn the rain your land needs into powder and dust that will fall on you from the sky until you are destroyed.
 
Exodus 24:1-8

Complete Jewish Bible

24 To Moshe [ Adonai ] said, “Come up to Adonai — you, Aharon, Nadav, Avihu, and seventy of the leaders of Isra’el. Prostrate yourselves at a distance, 2 while Moshe alone approaches Adonai — the others are not to approach, and the people are not to go up with him.” 3 Moshe came and told the people everything Adonai had said, including all the rulings. The people answered with one voice: “We will obey every word Adonai has spoken.”

4 Moshe wrote down all the words of Adonai . He rose early in the morning, built an altar at the base of the mountain and set upright twelve large stones to represent the twelve tribes of Isra’el. 5 He sent the young men of the people of Isra’el to offer burnt offerings and sacrifice peace offerings of oxen to Adonai . 6 Moshe took half of the blood and put it in basins; the other half of the blood he splashed against the altar. 7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it aloud, so that the people could hear; and they responded, “Everything that Adonai has spoken, we will do and obey.” 8 Moshe took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which Adonai has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

When someone made a covenant… back in the day like in the time of Abraham didn’t they cut animals in half and walk between the pieces pretty much saying like if they didn’t keep it they would be like the dead animals or something?
 
well david being to many jews the greatest king was an adulter , lair and commited murder so yeah i agree.
 
Guest1 said:
made a covenant… back in the day like in the time of Abraham didn’t they cut animals in half and walk between the pieces pretty much saying like if they didn’t keep it they would be like the dead animals or something?
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i dont know about this , but the jewish argument and the ones who still belive in the law say

" in Gal. 3 that if a man does not “continue in ALL that is written in the book of the Law” that his failure to continue in “ALL” the Law brings a terrible curse from God or so we are led to believe.

Ask yourself: Does Deut. 27:26, from which the Gal. 3 writer supposedly quotes in verse 10, really say that G-d will curse mankind if he does not “continue in “ALL” that is written in the Law.” The answer is simply “NO”!

In the Tyndale Commentary on Galatians on page 96 it says “Now it is quite true that the Hebrew Bible does not have the word “all” in this verse; it simply says “Cursed be he who does not confirm (uphold) the words of this Law, to perform them.”

Let us see how the verse is written in the Hebrew:
Deu 27:26 [ארור אשׁר לא־יקים את־דברי התורה־הזאת לעשׂות אותם ואמר כל־העם אמן׃ ]

*Dt. 27:26 Accursed is one who will not uphold the words of this Torah, to perform them. And the entire people shall say, Amen.

misused the verse of Deut. 27:26 in such a way as to negate the whole of the Law as if failing to obey it “all” is a curse upon anyone who tries to live his life dedicated to the Word and Laws of G-d. Again it must be said that Laws are little more than Covenant responsibilities that one has been given by G-d to assure one’ right-standing before G-d. Such right-standing before G-d is assured by one’s attempted obedience to these Covenant stipulations and Laws and when one fails this same G-d has given remedy to restore such a broken relationship. This is not hard and one must have only the desire to try to live a life obedient before G-d. But again the writer of Gal. 3:10 uses the verse to scare all readers everywhere, failure to uphold and perform “all” of the Law brings a curse upon him when in reality such an attempt brings the blessings of G-d. Besides there are parts of the Law that apply only to men, to women, and to priests. There is no way a person can “obey” all the Law and Jsus was not an exception. He believed in it “all” as other Jewish commentators have related as the real meaning of the verse in it’s Hebraic context. Jsus knew and believed all of the Torah was from G-d and relevant to all facets of life. It is Christians who have been opposite and hold contrary beliefs concerning the Law that in reality are sinful and bring a curse."

i parapharsed what the rabbi said because he goes on a jewish superiority complex that i dont want to put.
 
historyfan81 said:
Ask yourself: Does Deut. 27:26, from which the Gal. 3 writer supposedly quotes in verse 10, really say that G-d will curse mankind if he does not “continue in “ALL” that is written in the Law.” The answer is simply “NO”!
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When you say all what are you meaning? For example people who aren’t levitical priests would of course not do the work of a priest. Same for those who aren’t the high priest.
 
For example are we speaking of the gentiles? They are not under the law. As in they aren’t practing judaism. Yet God still judges gentile places. Book of Jonah for example.
 
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the rabbi is arguing that paul is a lair and by all means well all that pual made up that if we dont follow all the law then we are cursed when the passage of exodus never says all it just says law
 
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