Deutrocanonical Books-Apologetics

[TheApologist]

I don’t see how a Protestant is an expert on the Catholic Church. The last time I check the Vatican is in charge of the Catholic Church not Webster.

Let’s be nice now! Let’s go about discussing our beliefs in a dignified manner keeping the feelings of others in our minds, please. Thanks

 

[Wisdom]

Geez!! Give us a break from the William Webster article would you.

I would like to see the “admonition in the Preface to the Apocrypha” that William Webster mentions. Do you think you could find this for us? I wonder why Webster told us it was there but didn’t quote it.

It looks to me like the Polyglot Bible is a tool for scholars. It was never the official Bible of the CC.
newadvent.org/cathen/12222a.htm

Still would like to know why Protestants consider Church council decisions as fallible while considering Jerome as infallible?

Yeah where exactly is the quote? Once again Webster gives us an opinion without a primary source, we just have to take his word for it yet again, sloppy scholarship to be sure. And the study notes or biblical commentaries are not on par as far as authority as church councils and such. There are some Catholic Study Bibles and Commentaries out right now that contradict in some way the Cathechism of the Catholic Church some for instance deny the virgin birth well that might the opinion of the scholar but it excplicty contradicts the teachhings fo the church and that is what is infalliable not a study bible notes. For instance there are study Bibles for protestants that have notes that do not agree with a particutlar denomination or pastors point of view yet they use the Bible and recomend it to their parishoners as they point out the footnotes are not infalliable or the official teachings of their church.

 

[JoeyWarren]

The Old Testament itself says that collections of inspired and recognized books were being put in the ark of the covenant

Really now?

Deuteronomy 31:9-11,24-26;

Deuteronomy 31 9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

It says “in the side of the ark” not “inside the ark”

it in the side4480, 6654
Contracted from an unused root meaning to sidle off; a side; figuratively an adversary:* - ***(be-) side.

The context is that the book was placed beside the Ark or placed to the side (sidle off) of the Ark

(1 Samuel 10:25) and

Really?

1 Samuel 10:25 Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in a book, and laid it up before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house.

then the temple (2 Kings 22).

Can’t find anything of the such in this chapter. Wanna try again?

It was the job of the priests to watch over and guard these books (Deuteronomy 33:9).

What Bible are you reading from?

Deuteronomy 33:9 9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.

Josephus, the Jewish historian, tells us that the Old Testament canon was completed and recognized as completed by the Jews after their return from Babylon in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah (around 400 B.C.).

Josephus is authoriative on what Christians believe? This same Josephus which was a member of the Jamnia which made these proclamations:

1. Jesus is not the Messiah.
2. A distinction made between Christians and Jews. The Christians were declared Heretic.
3. Christians were expelled from the Synagogues.
4. They made the declaration that if it was not written before 400 BC and in Palestine then it is not inspired. THIS INCLUDES ANY NEW TESTAMENT WORK.

By Jesus’ day the Jewish people still held to Ezra’s collection (Ezra 7:6,10; Nehemiah 8:2-8,18), which they called ‘the Scriptures,’ that is “the writings.”

 

[kaycee]

We ought to adhere to the Magisterium of Webster… LMAO

I don’t see how a Protestant is an expert on the Catholic Church. The last time I check the Vatican is in charge of the Catholic Church not Webster.

Unless I missed a memo that had Pope Benedict XVI transfer his infallible authority to Webster.

Typical tactic of the defeated. Heap verbal abuse on the messenger. Fire off glib ad hom attacks and Do Not deal with the issue.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Typical tactic of the defeated. Heap verbal abuse on the messenger. Fire off glib ad hom attacks and Do Not deal with the issue.

?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Typical tactic of the defeated. Heap verbal abuse on the messenger. Fire off glib ad hom attacks and Do Not deal with the issue.

Defeat? I don’t think it isn’t. You keep refering to the OPINIONS of Webster than your own interpretation as if they were some short of Protestant version of the Magisterium.

I have yet you see cite an official decree from Catholic Church prior to the Council of Trent that the deutrocanonical books as uninspired.

I don’t think this is a defeat. You merely cite Webster’s opinion concerning the deutrocanonical books.

 

[TheApologist]

Not True! In the early sixteenth century, just prior to the Reformation, Cardinal Ximenes, the Archbishop of Toledo, in collaboration with the leading theologians of his day, produced an edition of the Bible called the Biblia Complutensia. There is an admonition in the Preface regarding the Apocrypha, that the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, the Maccabees, the additions to Esther and Daniel, are not canonical Scripture and were therefore not used by the Church for confirming the authority of any fundamental points of doctrine, though the Church allowed them to be read for purposes of edification

This Bible, as well as its Preface, was published by the authority and consent of Pope Leo X, to whom the whole work was dedicated.

I’d like to see 1)the actual list of books in this Bible and 2)an official vatican statement saying Leo X consented to it

Also, even if one man didn’t want those books in the Canon, doesn’t mean that Leo X was consenting to that part of the book. Maybe he wanted people to study this polyglot to know several different translations of passages. By consenting, Leo X DOES NOT say that every editorial word in it is true.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Matt. 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14 - behold, a “virgin” shall conceive. Hebrew - behold, a “young woman” shall conceive.

Matt. 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3 - make “His paths straight.” Hebrew - make “level in the desert a highway.”

Matt. 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 - I desire “mercy” and not sacrifice. Hebrew - I desire “goodness” and not sacrifice.

Matt. 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 - in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust). Hebrew - the isles shall wait for his law.

Matt. 13:15 / Isaiah 6:10 - heart grown dull; eyes have closed; to heal. Hebrew - heart is fat; ears are heavy; eyes are shut; be healed.

Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7 / Isaiah 29:13 - teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).

Matt. 21:16 / Psalm 8:2 - out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has “perfect praise.” Hebrew - thou has “established strength.”

Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint – “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”

Luke 3:5-6 / Isaiah 40:4-5 - crooked be made straight, rough ways smooth, shall see salvation. Hebrew - omits these phrases.

Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 61:1 - and recovering of sight to the blind. Hebrew - the opening of prison to them that are bound.

Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 58:6 - to set at liberty those that are oppressed (or bruised). Hebrew - to let the oppressed go free.

John 6:31 / Psalm 78:24 - He gave them “bread” out of heaven to eat. Hebrew - gave them “food” or “grain” from heaven.

John 12:38 / Isaiah 53:1 - who has believed our “report?” Hebrew - who has believed our “message?”

John 12:40 / Isaiah 6:10 - lest they should see with eyes…turn for me to heal them. Hebrew - shut their eyes…and be healed.

Acts 2:19 / Joel 2:30 - blood and fire and “vapor” of smoke. Hebrew - blood and fire and “pillars” or “columns” of smoke.

Acts 2:25-26 / Psalm 16:8 - I saw…tongue rejoiced…dwell in hope… Hebrew - I have set…glory rejoiced…dwell in safety.

Acts 4:26 / Psalm 2:1 - the rulers “were gathered together.” Hebrew - rulers “take counsel together.”

Acts 7:14 / Gen. 46:27; Deut. 10:22 - Stephen says “seventy-five” souls went down to Egypt. Hebrew - “seventy” people went.

Acts 7:27-28 / Exodus 2:14 - uses “ruler” and judge; killed the Egyptian “yesterday.” Hebrew - uses “prince” and there is no reference to “yesterday.”

Acts 7:43 / Amos 5:26-27 - the tent of “Moloch” and star of god of Rephan. Hebrew - “your king,” shrine, and star of your god.

scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html

Would you care to explain to me how Jesus could have quoted from the Septuagint? The Palestine Jews would have used the Hebrew Old Testament without the Apocrypha… not the Alexandrian. "When Jesus was about to read the second lesson in the Nazareth synagogue did he not use a Hebrew scroll? It was only later, as the early church formed and the gospel was carried to the Greek-speaking world, that the Septuagint became the text often used by the growing church. Jesus and his disciples would have used the Hebrew text during His ministry.

Besides, the earliest manuscripts we have of the entire Septuaginnt are from the 4th century? Although the 4th century copies do include the Apocryphal books, none include the same list of bookks.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Nancie Lew,

I have an LXX PDF file if you would be interested in reading Septuagint Text being cited in the NT.

If I explain it to you it would be too big for this thread to post.

If you want, I can email it to you. The file is by a Protestant Scholar who studied the LXX connection with the NT.

 

[Wisdom]

Would you care to explain to me how Jesus could have quoted from the Septuagint? The Palestine Jews would have used the Hebrew Old Testament without the Apocrypha… not the Alexandrian. "When Jesus was about to read the second lesson in the Nazareth synagogue did he not use a Hebrew scroll? It was only later, as the early church formed and the gospel was carried to the Greek-speaking world, that the Septuagint became the text often used by the growing church. Jesus and his disciples would have used the Hebrew text during His ministry.

Besides, the earliest manuscripts we have of the entire Septuaginnt are from the 4th century? Although the 4th century copies do include the Apocryphal books, none include the same list of bookks.

If the Septuagint was not in existence till the 4th century then how come the new testament authors quoted from them when referencing the OT almost 70 percent of the time?
Also is that were the case then can you explain to me how the early church fathers before Nicea all one hundred percent agreed the dueteros from the Septugeint were old testament scripture. Well the point is they quoted the Septugeint in the first, second and third centuries from Clement of Rome, Didache, Ignaitus, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria Tertullian, Cyprian, Origen Hippolytus and on and on and on well before the fourth century all affirming the dueteros as scripture and all used the Septugient.
But hey why bother with real facts when you can throw calumny and lies without proof because your pastor, bible study teacher said so.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Nancie Lew,

I have an LXX PDF file if you would be interested in reading Septuagint Text being cited in the NT.

If I explain it to you it would be too big for this thread to post.

If you want, I can email it to you. The file is by a Protestant Scholar who studied the LXX connection with the NT.

Augustine was the deciding factor in including the Deutrocanicals in the Vulgate? What I have read about Augustine is that Jerome later convinced him of the inspired nature of the Hebrew OT, but Augustine never dropped his support for the Apocrypha. Why when he didn’t speak Hebrew?

 

[Nancie_Lew]

If the Septuagint was not in existence till the 4th century then how come the new testament authors quoted from them when referencing the OT almost 70 percent of the time?
Also is that were the case then can you explain to me how the early church fathers before Nicea all one hundred percent agreed the dueteros from the Septugeint were old testament scripture. Well the point is they quoted the Septugeint in the first, second and third centuries from Clement of Rome, Didache, Ignaitus, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria Tertullian, Cyprian, Origen Hippolytus and on and on and on well before the fourth century all affirming the dueteros as scripture and all used the Septugient.
But hey why bother with real facts when you can throw calumny and lies without proof because your pastor, bible study teacher said so.

Tertullian is a great example. He not only accepted the Deutrocanicals as cannon he was also willing to open the list even wider. He argued for the divine nature of the Sibylline Oracles as a parallel revelation to the Bible.

 

[Wisdom]

Augustine was the deciding factor in including the Deutrocanicals in the Vulgate? What I have read about Augustine is that Jerome later convinced him of the inspired nature of the Hebrew OT, but Augustine never dropped his support for the Apocrypha. Why when he didn’t speak Hebrew?

And your protestant pastor speaks Hebrew?
It has nothing to do with adhering to a particualr traditions most Catholic priest and Most Protestant Pastors don’t know Hebrew either its has nothing to do with the matter. In fact Luther did not speek Hebrew either he had his old testament translated by ghost writers - something protestant historians fail to mention as they reinvient hisory that Luther was a great Biblical scholar he like most midevils knew Latin and Biblical Greek yet he came to conclusion the smaller canon was to be accepted it had nothing to dow with him knowing or not knowing Hebrew but with him not liking the contents and implications of what the duteros contained and this is why there is a divide between protestant and catholics it has nothing to do with who knew what.
If this is really the bottom line then why don’t you accept Jerome’s opinion that Jesus brothers and sisters in the BIble were his cousins? His argument stems from the fact he knew Hebrew and he pointed out in Hebrew there is no word for counsin in Hebrew thus the Jewish biblical authors used brothers and sisters instead to designate cousin. This is the opinion of the great Jewish scholar Jerome? But gee you won’t accept his expert Jewish opinion oh why?

 

[Nancie_Lew]

And your protestant pastor speaks Hebrew?

If this is really the bottom line then why don’t you accept Jerome’s opinion that Jesus brothers and sisters in the BIble were his cousins? His argument stems from the fact he knew Hebrew and he pointed out in Hebrew there is no word for counsin in Hebrew thus the Jewish biblical authors used brothers and sisters instead to designate cousin. This is the opinion of the great Jewish scholar Jerome? But gee you won’t accept his expert Jewish opinion oh why?

You know darn well that according to Catholic speak there is no Hebrew word for either brother or sister …but like you you said it is only Jerome’s opinion.

 

[Wisdom]

Tertullian is a great example. He not only accepted the Deutrocanicals as cannon he was also willing to open the list even wider. He argued for the divine nature of the Sibylline Oracles as a parallel revelation to the Bible.

A great example of what?
Tertullian did not say they were to be in the Christian Canon he said the duteros were to be included in the Christian Canon. He thought the Oracles to have some truth to them he does not say they are to be included in the Christian canon. By the way you failed to mention St Jerome went a step further than that he said the Oracles were an inspired authority. Yeah the same Jerome your using as an authority for the Jewish canon. Hypocrite. Next time stop the selective facts. By the way many church fathers thought they had some degree of truth to them but as Irenæus and Cyprian, make no use of the Sibylline Oracles like most modern Christians and they approved the dueteros as scripture. So if the exclusion of the oracles is your arbriter you should go with the authority of Cyprian and Irenaeus who thougt i spurious rather than St Jerome who gave it rating of authority.
Face it your arguments are full of holes and you constantly change tactics to back up an opinion that is ahistorical and subjective.

 

[Wisdom]

You know darn well that according to Catholic speak there is no Hebrew word for either brother or sister …but like you you said it is only Jerome’s opinion.

Yeah but your using Jerome’s opinion for Christian authority on the matter of an old testament canon. So now isn’t his opinion of the canon merely his opinion as well?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Augustine was the deciding factor in including the Deutrocanicals in the Vulgate? What I have read about Augustine is that Jerome later convinced him of the inspired nature of the Hebrew OT, but Augustine never dropped his support for the Apocrypha. Why when he didn’t speak Hebrew?

No it was Pope Damasus I who decreed the Deutrocanonical in the Council of Rome in 382.

Someone quoted the Decree in fact.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Augustine was the deciding factor in including the Deutrocanicals in the Vulgate? What I have read about Augustine is that Jerome later convinced him of the inspired nature of the Hebrew OT, but Augustine never dropped his support for the Apocrypha. Why when he didn’t speak Hebrew?

Here is the official Decree:

he Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D…

ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:

It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus(Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.
Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

This list of 46 Old Testament and 27 New Testament books was reconfirmed in the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D… St. Jerome’s translation, “The Latin Vulgate”*, is to this day, the official Bible of the Catholic Church. The Bibles which Catholics use today, have the same 46 books in the Old Testament as they have had since before the beginning of Christianity. "

 

[Mannyfit75]

Nancie Lew:

Augustine was the deciding factor in including the Deutrocanonicals in the Vulgate?

ANSWER: Pope Damascus decreed those books canonical. See above text.

What I have read about Augustine is that Jerome later convinced him of the inspired nature of the Hebrew OT, but Augustine never dropped his support for the Apocrypha. Why when he didn’t speak Hebrew?

No. Actually, Jerome doubted the books but Augustine convince him that the Church had authority to decree these deutrocanonical books inspired.

In fact he regretted it by saying,

“What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us” (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]). Thus Jerome acknowledged the principle by which the canon was settled—the judgment of the Church, not of later Jews.

 

[TheApologist]

"kaycee:

Not True! In the early sixteenth century, just prior to the Reformation, Cardinal Ximenes, the Archbishop of Toledo, in collaboration with the leading theologians of his day, produced an edition of the Bible called the Biblia Complutensia. There is an admonition in the Preface regarding the Apocrypha, that the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, the Maccabees, the additions to Esther and Daniel, are not canonical Scripture and were therefore not used by the Church for confirming the authority of any fundamental points of doctrine, though the Church allowed them to be read for purposes of edification

This Bible, as well as its Preface, was published by the authority and consent of Pope Leo X, to whom the whole work was dedicated.

Even if one man didn’t want those books in the Canon…this doesn’t mean that Leo X was consenting to the lack of those books. Maybe he wanted people to study this polyglot to know several different translations of passages. By consenting, Leo X DOES NOT say that every editorial word in it is true and authoritative.

Okay, can you please quote the exact words of the Preface. Just because you find a site which says that the Preface said something…doesn’t mean that it’s true.

What pope wouldn’t want biblical scholars to be studying the different translations of the Bible? (The Biblia Complutensia was a Polyglot.)
How can you say that just because Leo X authorized it to be read, it means that he agreed with an editorial comment(if it exists)?

ANSWER THIS. DO NOT SIMPLY SKIP IT.