Deutrocanonical Books-Apologetics

[Mannyfit75]

Good morning Manny…

hope all is well for you… glad to see that you are able to “do your work” while you serve. Thank you for both. Keep safe.

.

Thanks. Pray for me always…

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Another text in the NT that cited (not quoted) is found in John 10:22 called the Feast of Didication (Hanukkah). This was established during the time of the Maccabees and prescribe as an annual feast.

The story goes, Antiochus IV, King of Syria had defeated Egypt and turned his wrath towards Israel. He took for himself a golden alter, lamb stand and sacred vessels of the Temple and sacrifice a pig to the god Zeus in the Holy of Holies. The Syrian king forbade circumcision, Sabbath observance, and keeping of other kosher laws. Judas Maccabees refuse to submit to the king’s oppressive rules, and led a successful rebellion on behalf of God’s people against their oppressiors.

The origin of the feast is found nowhere in the Protestant Bible, yet our Lord not only attended to this feast by he used the Feast of Lights as the backdrop of His “Light of the World” discourse (John 1:9)

Here is the verse from John 10:22

And it was the feast of dedication at Jerusalem, and it was winter.

From 1 Maccabees 4:59

And Judas and his brethren and all the church of Israel decreed, that the day of the dedication of the alter should be kept in its season from year to year.

Jews still celebrate Hanukkah every winter.

Most Protestant reject these books because the Jews at the Council of Jamnia rejected them. It is also point out that in the Council of Jamnia, that the Jewish rabbis there also condemned Jesus Christ and did not declare him to be the Messiah. I don’t know why they consider Jamnia a valid council but ignore the fact the they rejected the Lord.

The Council of Jamnia in 90 AD is supposed to have closed canon of the OT for the Jews. Yet the Christian Church at the time did not find their decreeds binding.

The Greek Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria never quotes from the Apocrypha. Don’t you think he would have if the Greek Jews had accepted the additional books…that they would have used them as part of the canon. Again, Josephus, who used the Septuagint and made references to 1 Esdras and 1 Maccabees writing about 90 A.D. states that the canon was closed in the time of Artaxerxes I whose reign ended in 423 B.C.

Also there is “Aquila’s” Greek version of the OT made about 128 A.D., which was adopted by the Alexandrian Jews. The “Aquila” did not include the Apocrypha.

Catholics argue that it does not matter if the Jews accepted the extra books because they rejected Jesus and that the only important opinion is that of the early church. Explain why copies of the Greek Septuagint differ in their selection of included books.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

There was never a closed Canon proclaimed by the Jews during the time of Christ. In fact, the Pharisees and the Sadducees attest to this for they interpret Scripture much differently. The Sadducees you know do not believe in the resurrection, but the Pharisees do.

What about you? Do you believe in the resurrection? From what I have read about the book of “Sirach” it denies the resurrection and is another reason why it was rejected by the Jews.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Can you tell me the names of the men who wrote each Deutrocanonical book? I don’t think you can. That is another reason why they are rejected by Protestants.

Can you tell us with certainty who wrote Hebrews?

 

[Mannyfit75]

What about you? Do you believe in the resurrection?

Yes I believe in the resurrection. Jesus said, “I am the Life and the Resurrection.”

From what I have read about the book of “Sirach” it denies the resurrection and is another reason why it was rejected by the Jews.

Actually it doesn’t. Not all Jews believe in the Resurrection the Sadducees at the time of Jesus Christ did not. The Pharisees did.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Greek Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria never quotes from the Apocrypha. Don’t you think he would have if the Greek Jews had accepted the additional books…that they would have used them as part of the canon. Again, Josephus, who used the Septuagint and made references to 1 Esdras and 1 Maccabees writing about 90 A.D. states that the canon was closed in the time of Artaxerxes I whose reign ended in 423 B.C.

Also there is “Aquila’s” Greek version of the OT made about 128 A.D., which was adopted by the Alexandrian Jews. The “Aquila” did not include the Apocrypha.

Catholics argue that it does not matter if the Jews accepted the extra books because they rejected Jesus and that the only important opinion is that of the early church. Explain why copies of the Greek Septuagint differ in their selection of included books.

I just quoted you Hebrews and of the feast of dedication (Hannakuh) from the New Testament Epistles. Doesn’t your Bible have John 10:22 and Hebrew 11:35?

Those verse which I quoted is closely link to the Deutrocanonical Books? Are you a not a Christian? or are you a Jew? Because you refer to Jewish Scholars.

Nancie, Nancie, my dear friend. I hope you are not ignoring those citations I just gave you. Because apparently have just blatantly ignore them.

Tell me, where in the Protestant Bible OT has the feast of the dedication? The Jews today during the winter celebrate this feast day. It’s called hanukkah.

Hanukkah is the Jewish festival of lights and celebration of peace, happiness and prosperity. Hanukkah or Chanukah means (in Hebrew) dedication… Hanukkah begins on the 25th day of Kislev, the third month of the Jewish calendar and corresponding, approximately, to December in the Gregorian calendar and celebrated on eight successive days, through the 2nd of Tevet. In addition to the Festival of Lights, Hanukkah is also known as the Feast of Dedication, and Feast of the Maccabees

The most important Hanukkah ritual is the candle lighting in a special candleholder called a menorah or a hanukkiah. There are 9 holders on a hanukkiah,one at the middle and four numbers on either side . The middle candle, called the shamash, and is used to light each of the other candles every night. Therefore, on the first night of Hanukkah, two candles are lit and on the last night, there are nine lit candles.

Festival of Lights is celebrating in India in a different context is known as Deepavali.

kidswebindia.com/holidays_hanukkah.php Jewish Resource

 

[Randy_Carson]

New Testament References to Deuterocanonical Books

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Sirach 28:2
Forgive your neighbor’s injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.

+++

Luke 6:31
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Tobit 4:15
Do to no one what you yourself dislike. Do not drink wine till you become drunk, nor let drunkenness accompany you on your way.

+++

Matthew 27:41-43
41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, "but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "

Wisdom 2:15-18
15 Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways. 16 He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. 17 Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. 18 For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. 19 With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him." 21 These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them, 22 And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.

+++

Luke 14:13
13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Tobit 4:7
"Give alms from your possessions. Do not turn your face away from any of the poor, and God’s face will not be turned away from you.

+++

John 10:22
22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,

1 Maccabees 4:59
Then Judas and his brothers and the entire congregation of Israel decreed that the days of the dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness on the anniversary every year for eight days, from the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev.

+++

Romans 9:20
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "

Wisdom 12:12
12 For who can say to you, “What have you done?” or who can oppose your decree? Or when peoples perish, who can challenge you, their maker; or who can come into your presence as vindicator of unjust men?

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Romans 9:21
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Wisdom 15:7
For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.

+++

Romans 9:22
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Wisdom 12:20
20 For these were enemies of your servants, doomed to death; yet, while you punished them with such solicitude and pleading, granting time and opportunity to abandon wickedness,

+++

Romans 11:34
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

Wisdom 9:13
For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?

+++

2 Corinthians 9:7
7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Sirach 35:9
Give to the Most High as he has given to you, generously, according to your means.

+++

Hebrews 1:3
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Wisdom 7:26
For she is the refulgence of eternal light, the spotless mirror of the power of God, the image of his goodness.

+++

Hebrews 11:35
35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

2 Maccabees 7:7
Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them."

drawn from Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger by Gary Michuta

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[El_camino]

Nancy Lew:

Can you tell me the names of the men who wrote each Deutrocanonical book? I don’t think you can. That is another reason why they are rejected by Protestants.

Some of them we can. Wisdom was written by Solomon for instance. Would you accept Wisdom then??

On the other hand, if not knowing who wrote the book is reason for rejection, then we should reject most of the O.T. books.

For instance, no one knows who wrote GENESIS. It is said that it was written by 4 different AUTHORS and that then there was a COPYIST who put all four sources together intermeshing them.

Also, most Theologians recognize that Paul did not write Hebrews. So they claim that no ones knows This is something that a lot of protestants also accept.

However, no one denies that Genesis or Hebrews are inspired.

Knowing or not knowing who wrote the books is not reason for being accepted or rejected.

Blessings,

E.C.

 

[colliric]

The other references are vague to me, but I certainly can’t look past Rev 8:2-4 in light of Tobit 12:13 and 12:15. You can try to dance around the truth by trying to say things like “oh it’s not a direct quote 100% see”, but in the end clear truth is clear truth… and the book of Revelation pretty much unequivocally gives all the evidence you need for accepting the Deuterocanon. Heck it directly references the same chapter of Tobit that forms the basis for Prayers for the dead and also for Purgatory(why would anyone need to pray for someone who’s already in either heaven or hell?), one of the most Catholic chapters of the bible.

The Apostle John had these books and thought they were scripture and that’s good enough reason for me because he was the apostle Jesus charged with looking after Mary.

P.s I know I’ve said this before, but it cannot be understated.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Romans 9:21
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Wisdom 15:7
For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.

+++

Romans 9:22
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Wisdom 12:20
20 For these were enemies of your servants, doomed to death; yet, while you punished them with such solicitude and pleading, granting time and opportunity to abandon wickedness,

+++

Romans 11:34
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

Wisdom 9:13
For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?

+++

2 Corinthians 9:7
7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Sirach 35:9
Give to the Most High as he has given to you, generously, according to your means.

+++

Hebrews 1:3
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Wisdom 7:26
For she is the refulgence of eternal light, the spotless mirror of the power of God, the image of his goodness.

+++

Hebrews 11:35
35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

2 Maccabees 7:7
Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them."

drawn from Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger by Gary Michuta

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Geat now show me where any of these quotes were taken from the Old Testament. There is only one passage on your list that is in the Old Testament and it is Hebrew 1:3.

Here is a link for Old Testament quotes in the New Testament. Both Jesus and the disciples used these quotes. Note that when Jesus uses a quote from the Old Testament it is almost always an authorative quote.

kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Some of them we can. Wisdom was written by Solomon for instance. Would you accept Wisdom then??

On the other hand, if not knowing who wrote the book is reason for rejection, then we should reject most of the O.T. books.

For instance, no one knows who wrote GENESIS. It is said that it was written by 4 different AUTHORS and that then there was a COPYIST who put all four sources together intermeshing them.

Also, most Theologians recognize that Paul did not write Hebrews. So they claim that no ones knows This is something that a lot of protestants also accept.

However, no one denies that Genesis or Hebrews are inspired.

Knowing or not knowing who wrote the books is not reason for being accepted or rejected.

Blessings,

E.C.

Moses is the primary author of Genesis through Deuteronomy (known as the Torah). Joshua wrote most of the book bearing his name, while Samuel completed the final portion of that book, in addition to Judges and Ruth. Samuel edited his own additions, plus portions of the Torah.

Samuel also wrote much of the initial chapters of I Samuel (see I Sam. 10:25). The prophet Isaiah wrote the remainder of I Samuel as well as II Samuel and I and II Kings. Much of the work by Samuel and Isaiah was done by collecting and compiling older accounts recorded by prophets close to when the events took place. For example, Elijah had written much of what Isaiah compiled as part of the books of the Kings. I and II Chronicles, Ezra and Esther were recorded by Ezra, who was the primarily used by God to edit, compile and canonize the entire Old Testament.

The book of Job was most likely written by Job. King David wrote more than half of the Psalms. Others portions of that book were written by Moses, Hezekiah, Solomon and others. King Solomon also wrote Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon. Jeremiah authored the book of Lamentations.

Daniel, Ezra and Nehemiah wrote the books bearing their names. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi were all prophets God used to also record the books of the Bible that bear their names.

In the New Testament, the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, I Peter, II Peter, I John, II John, III John and Jude were all written by the men after whom they are named. Luke also wrote the book of Acts. The apostle Paul wrote the book of Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, Titus, Philemon and Hebrews. The apostle John recorded the book of Revelation.

thercg.org/questions/p110.a.html

 

[Mannyfit75]

Geat now show me where any of these quotes were taken from the Old Testament. There is only one passage on your list that is in the Old Testament and it is Hebrew 1:3.

Here is a link for Old Testament quotes in the New Testament. Both Jesus and the disciples used these quotes. Note that when Jesus uses a quote from the Old Testament it is almost always an authorative quote.

kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

You know that website also show Septuagint aka LXX. It does show both the parallels between the Greek OT version and the NT. 2/3 of the NT are cited from the Septuagint.

 

[lak611]

The apostle Paul wrote the book of Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, Titus, Philemon and Hebrews.

From the introduction to the NIV in regard to Hebrews: “The writer of this letter does not identify himself, but he was obviously well known to the original recipients. Though for some 1,200 years (from c. a.d. 400 to 1600) the book was commonly called “The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews,” there was no agreement in the earliest centuries regarding its authorship. Since the Reformation it has been widely recognized that Paul could not have been the writer.” ibs.org/niv/studybible/hebrews.php The NIV is a Protestant Bible, and the Protestant translators do not attribute Paul as the author of Hebrews.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

You know that website also show Septuagint aka LXX. It does show both the parallels between the Greek OT version and the NT. 2/3 of the NT are cited from the Septuagint.

Before I came on this thread I didn’t know what “the Council of Jamnia” was. Now I know Jamnia is where and when the Jews decided their Old Testment canon. That is why Steve Ray whats to turn Jamnia into a myth so he can justify the inclusion of the Deutrocanonicals in the Catholic Canon. Every Jewish web-site I have looked at says there was a Council of Jamnia.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

From the introduction to the NIV in regard to Hebrews: “The writer of this letter does not identify himself, but he was obviously well known to the original recipients. Though for some 1,200 years (from c. a.d. 400 to 1600) the book was commonly called “The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews,” there was no agreement in the earliest centuries regarding its authorship. Since the Reformation it has been widely recognized that Paul could not have been the writer.” ibs.org/niv/studybible/hebrews.php The NIV is a Protestant Bible, and the Protestant translators do not attribute Paul as the author of Hebrews.

So do you agree with Luther and his decision to remove Hebrews from the canon? Perhaps he was right since there is no definite author.

 

[El_camino]

Before I came on this thread I didn’t know what “the Council of Jamnia” was. Now I know Jamnia is where and when the Jews decided their Old Testment canon. That is why Steve Ray whats to turn Jamnia into a myth so he can justify the inclusion of the Deutrocanonicals in the Catholic Canon. Every Jewish web-site I have looked at says there was a Council of Jamnia.

Nancie Lew, you are very confused. No catholic wants to make the Council of Jamnia “disappear”. In fact, the fact that there was a council of Jamnia, which is when the Jews got rid of the deuterocanonicals is a very strong case in favor of the deuterocanonicals. Why? Because Jamnia occured around the Year 100 A.D. Christ had already been crucified, and all the apostles, except possibly John, had already been martyred. The CHURCH already existed and was well establishl; thus, the JEWS no longer had authority to decide what was scripture and what wasn’t. The truth was no longer with them as they had rejected JESUS, and those who rejected Jesus, he called them the sons of the father of lies (John 8:44). The truth was now with the Church not with the Jews.

Jammnia got rid of the deuterocanonicals, in spite that the Jews at the time of Jesus, especially Christians, did have them in their Bibles, as most Christians used the Septuagint, which does have those books.

If you notice one the things about Jamnia is that it was a VERY anti-christian. So they decided to get rid all the books that they could not reproduce a Hebrew version because those were used by the “christians”, and these not only INCLUDED the deuterocanonicals, but also all the books of the N.T. they rejected. Are we to follow Jamnia in this regard as well?

Following Jamnia, a Jewish council that happened after the Christ had already died and risen and the Church had already formed and was well established is simply RIDICULOUS. This would mean that even today, if a bunch of Jewish Rabbis got together and decided to get rid of say Nehemiah or Eclesiastes (both books are not cited anywhere in the N.T.) we would have to accept such decision.

Nancie Lew, would you reject Nehemiah and Eclesiastes if a bunch of Jews got together and decided to get rid of them as they did in Jamnia with the deuterocanonicals???

Blessings,

E.C.

 

[El_camino]

Moses is the primary author of Genesis through Deuteronomy (known as the Torah).

Nancie Lew. Moses might have written exodus, deuteronomy, leviticus and Numbers and it is very POSSIBLE that Moses was the COPYIST who compiled together Genesis. However, starting with the fact that MOSES was not present in the time of Adam and Eve, Noah, in the time of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc. he simply COULD not have been the AUTHOR of it.

Most scholars agree that there are at least 4 different sources the the copyist of Genesis (whether that was Moses, it is unknown) used to compile them together and create genesis. THese sources were:

1. The Yahweist source (J)
2. Elohimist source(E)
3. Priestly source (P)
4. Deuteronomy (D)

When you read GENESIS you can see that sometimes it calls God Yahweh, other call him Elohim, and the stiles tends to change very abruptly.

Just like HEBREW, it is hard, if not impossible, to know who actually wrote Genesis.

Joshua wrote most of the book bearing his name, while Samuel completed the final portion of that book, in addition to Judges and Ruth. Samuel edited his own additions, plus portions of the Torah.

Samuel also wrote much of the initial chapters of I Samuel (see I Sam. 10:25). The prophet Isaiah wrote the remainder of I Samuel as well as II Samuel and I and II Kings. Much of the work by Samuel and Isaiah was done by collecting and compiling older accounts recorded by prophets close to when the events took place. For example, Elijah had written much of what Isaiah compiled as part of the books of the Kings. I and II Chronicles, Ezra and Esther were recorded by Ezra, who was the primarily used by God to edit, compile and canonize the entire Old Testament.

The book of Job was most likely written by Job. King David wrote more than half of the Psalms. Others portions of that book were written by Moses, Hezekiah, Solomon and others. King Solomon also wrote Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon. Jeremiah authored the book of Lamentations.

Daniel, Ezra and Nehemiah wrote the books bearing their names. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi were all prophets God used to also record the books of the Bible that bear their names.

In the New Testament, the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, I Peter, II Peter, I John, II John, III John and Jude were all written by the men after whom they are named. Luke also wrote the book of Acts. The apostle Paul wrote the book of Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, Titus, Philemon and Hebrews. The apostle John recorded the book of Revelation.

thercg.org/questions/p110.a.html

Nancie Lew, it is easy to say all that site said…

You said it yourself and now I apply it to what you have written here:
Nancie Lew:

There is no definite proof that either one of these people wrote a book…mere speculation.

This is true in many of the books of the BIBLE… it is mere speciulation that Moses wrote Genesis, as it is mere speciulation that Paul wrote Hebrews…

I could also say: Tobit wrote Tobit, Solomon wrote Wisdom (which he did), Baruc wrote Baruc, Macabees wrote Macabees, etc etc. and be done with it.

As I said, In many of the books you mention, scholars cannot find a common ground. Examples of this, some scholars say that Paul wrote hebrews, whereas others disagree.

Some say that John the Elder, who wrote 3 John, and the John that wrote 2 John are not the same John as 1 John (this is why 2 and 3 john were as well sometimes not accepted as a canonical book until the Church closed the cannon in the 4th century). Same can be said of the other deuterocanonicals of the New Testament, which were not widely accepted in the first centuries until the Canon was closed in the 4th century (i.e., James, Jude, Apocalypse)

It is NOT important who wrote the books, but that they are part of the Canon and they have always been.

Many blessings,

E.C.

 

[El_camino]

You do realize that there are other copies of the Greek Septuagint and that they differ in their selection of included apocryphal books. The three oldest complete copies we have of the Greek OT include different additional books. Codex Vaticanus (4th century) omits 1 and 2 Maccabees, which is canonical according to the Roman Catholic Church, and includes 1 Esdras, which they reject. Codex Sinaiticus (4th century) leaves out Baruch. which is supposed to be canonical, but includes 4 Maccabees, which they reject. Codex Alexandrinus (5th century) includes three non-canonical Apocryphal books, 1 Esdras and 3 and 4 Maccabees. I thought the Canon was already decided at Carthage prior to all of these copies. Please tell me which is the correct Bible version.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

Nancie Lew, understand that the Codices (i.e., Vaticanus, sinaiticus, alexandrinus, etc) are simply a compilation of the books that were FOUND or preserved, they are NOT a LIST of books to be considered as a CANON. The fact that some codices have some books and other don’t has nothing to do with the canon but simply with what was FOUND or preserved along the centuries. Heck most of those codices are missing many pages, does that mean that those pages were not part of the canon at that time?, NO! obviously not.

To know what the ORIGINAL canon was, you have to find the LIST clearly written and enumerated somewhere, such as how you find it in the Acts of the Councils (i.e., Carthage, Hippo, Rome), or in a letter of a Church Father (i.e., St. Athanasius Festal Letter). Obviosly, Athanasius only gave his personal opinion on regard the canon before the Councils gave their authorative resolution about it.

Many blessings,

E.C.

 

[MrS]

Before I came on this thread I didn’t know what “the Council of Jamnia” was. Now I know Jamnia is where and when the Jews decided their Old Testment canon. That is why Steve Ray whats to turn Jamnia into a myth so he can justify the inclusion of the Deutrocanonicals in the Catholic Canon. Every Jewish web-site I have looked at says there was a Council of Jamnia.

Steve Ray is not perfect by any means… but show me where he states that agenda… or retract your baseless argument.

.