Developing Dogmas and Doctrines

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 It is the Proto-Gospel of James written about AD 150
Do Catholics consider this a part of the Gospel message- is it in the Catholic Bible?
Catholics consider the Marian doctrines part of the the Gospel message, yes. We see the reflection of them in the Bible, but the Bible is not the Source of Catholic doctrine. Jesus is the Source.

The NT is a Catholic book. The 27 books of the NT were canonized by the Catholic Church. there is nothing in them that is not Catholic.

Catholic doctrine can also be found throughout the writings of the Fathers, including the Protoevangelium of James. This book was not included in the NT for several other reasons, but there are some truths of the Gospel found in all of these early writings. This one, written just 100 years after Christ, contains references to what the Church believes and teaches about Mary. This is one of the early peices of evidence that the Church held these beliefs since the beginning.
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If not do you know why the Catholic Church failed in putting this into Scripture?
Yes. None of the writings that contained anything that was inconsistent with Catholic Sacred Tradition was not included in the canon. A lack of certainty about the authorship was also an issue.
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Did any of the early Church fathers reference it?
You mean the Protoevangelium?

How does that matter? I thought you were convinced none of this evidence exists? Asking questions like this is likely to upset your apple cart of denial…:eek:
 
So why would you be afraid to speak the truth to other people. If it is true, why would it be a stumbling block? Why are evangelicals and some protestants so anti-Mary to the point that you cannot call her what she is? You obviously know that denying that Mary is the mother of God is the same as denying the incarnation of Jesus. So why is this teaching such a stumbling block?
You can not come to that conclusions and I know of no Christians that ar anti Mary-I am not at all anti-Mary.

What does that mean the mother of GOD? The mother of the Father, Son or Holy Spirit, all 3 only 2 of the 3 only 1 of the three?

I have spent many years witnessing to Muslims. When witnessing to non-christians calling Mary the Mother of GOD is** a huge stumbling block.**

What they think of as GOD we think of as GODHead.

I always say Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Saviour a person of the Trinity- GODHead that is 100% human and 100% GOD.
 
So why would you be afraid to speak the truth to other people. If it is true, why would it be a stumbling block? Why are evangelicals and some protestants so anti-Mary to the point that you cannot call her what she is? You obviously know that denying that Mary is the mother of God is the same as denying the incarnation of Jesus. So why is this teaching such a stumbling block?
I am not afraid to speak the truth. I am just not one to repeat myself over and over and over again. I am very grateful that guanophore ended this drama.
Why do I have to justify being thankful?
You can not come to that conclusions and I know of no Christians that ar anti Mary-I am not at all anti-Mary.

What does that mean the mother of GOD? The mother of the Father, Son or Holy Spirit, all 3 only 2 of the 3 only 1 of the three?

I have spent many years witnessing to Muslims. When witnessing to non-christians calling Mary the Mother of GOD is** a huge stumbling block.**

What they think of as GOD we think of as GODHead.

I always say Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Saviour a person of the Trinity- GODHead that is 100% human and 100% GOD.
Thank you. 👍
 
You can not come to that conclusions and I know of no Christians that ar anti Mary-I am not at all anti-Mary.

What does that mean the mother of GOD? The mother of the Father, Son or Holy Spirit, all 3 only 2 of the 3 only 1 of the three?

I have spent many years witnessing to Muslims. When witnessing to non-christians calling Mary the Mother of GOD is** a huge stumbling block.**

What they think of as GOD we think of as GODHead.

I always say Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Saviour a person of the Trinity- GODHead that is 100% human and 100% GOD.
You bet your bippy it is a stumbling block. And it is EXACTLY this block that led the Council of Ephesus to give her the title Theotokos. This is also why we say that all the Marian doctrines came out of the doctrines about Christ. The title of Theotokos is a testimony that JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH, the Son of God. Those that deny this, as the Apostle teaches, are “antichrist”.
 
Do Catholics consider this a part of the Gospel message- is it in the Catholic Bible?
I find this question puzzling, as I am certain you know the answer.

But, I will indulge you. No, Catholics do not consider this ancient Christian text theopneustos.
If not do you know why the Catholic Church failed in putting this into Scripture?
Because the the Catholic Bishops, through the channel of Sacred Tradition, discerned that it was not fully consistent with the Teachings of the Apostles.
Did any of the early Church fathers reference it?
Yes, they most certainly did!
 
I have spent many years witnessing to Muslims. When witnessing to non-christians calling Mary the Mother of GOD is** a huge stumbling block.**
As is the Incarnation. That’s a huge stumbling block to Muslims, is it not? A man could never become God.

Yet, I presume, you continue to preach the truth regarding this dogma? Despite it being a stumbling block to Muslims?

I find this “Mary as the mother of God is a huge stumbling block to Muslims so I dare not speak its truth” to be a little disingenuous.

It’s not *really *because Muslims find it a stumbling block that you won’t acknowledge the Theotokos, is it, schaick? It’s because it is dripping with Catholicism that you won’t touch it, right?
 
Catholics consider the Marian doctrines part of the the Gospel message, yes. We see the reflection of them in the Bible, but the Bible is not the Source of Catholic doctrine. Jesus is the Source.

The NT is a Catholic book. The 27 books of the NT were canonized by the Catholic Church. there is nothing in them that is not Catholic.

Catholic doctrine can also be found throughout the writings of the Fathers, including the Protoevangelium of James. This book was not included in the NT for several other reasons, but there are some truths of the Gospel found in all of these early writings. This one, written just 100 years after Christ, contains references to what the Church believes and teaches about Mary. This is one of the early peices of evidence that the Church held these beliefs since the beginning.

Yes. None of the writings that contained anything that was inconsistent with Catholic Sacred Tradition was not included in the canon. A lack of certainty about the authorship was also an issue.

You mean the Protoevangelium?

How does that matter? I thought you were convinced none of this evidence exists? Asking questions like this is likely to upset your apple cart of denial…:eek:
Ok questionable authorship and containing information inconsistent with Catholic teaching.

Not worthy to be deemed Scripture-yet worthy for some of it to be Tradition, but Tradition is supposed to have equal footing with Scripture?

Yes did any of the church Fathers even if written 50-90 years later then the Gospels that were included in canon reference the Protoevangelium of Joseph? I ask because if you are using part of the Protoevangelium of Joseph for tradition how do you know what part is truth and what part is just legend?

Not to be confused with: PROTOEVANGELIUM that =Genesis 3:15

As in:
THE PROTOEVANGELIUM IN THE LIGHT OF THE MAGISTERIUM
Very Rev. Msgr. George W. Shea

marymediatrix-resourceonline.com/library/files/scholastic/mag_pevang.htm

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I can easily see Mary and Jesus in this verse but

I don’t get the leap from – I will put enmity between the serpant and Mary and between the serpant’s seed and Jesus, Jesus will bruise the serpent head and the serpent will bruise Jesus’ heel- to immaculate conception:
*
In his Encyclical Ubi primum, Feb. 2, 1849, which directed the bishops of the universal Church to inform him what was the belief of their clergy and faithful and what their own belief concerning the Immaculate Conception, Pope Pius IX stated that Mary "crushed the head of the ancient serpent with her virtuous foot."78 *

*In the first place, the foundation of this doctrine [the Immaculate Conception] is to be found in Sacred Scripture, in which God, Creator of all things, after ‘the sad fall of Adam speaks to the serpent, the tempter and corrupter, in these words, which not a few Fathers, Doctors of the Church and very many approved interpreters refer to ‘the Virgin Mother of God: ‘I will put enmities between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed . . .‘ (Gen. 3, 15). Now, if at any time the Blessed Virgin Mary had been, because contaminated in her conception by the hereditary stain of sin, destitute of divine grace, for that moment at least, however brief, there would not have come between her and the serpent that perpetual enmity spoken of from earliest ‘tradition’ down to the time of the solemn definition of the Virgin’s Immaculate Conception, but rather a certain subjection.109 *
 
As is the Incarnation. That’s a huge stumbling block to Muslims, is it not? A man could never become God.

Yet, I presume, you continue to preach the truth regarding this dogma? Despite it being a stumbling block to Muslims?

I find this “Mary as the mother of God is a huge stumbling block to Muslims so I dare not speak its truth” to be a little disingenuous.

It’s not *really *because Muslims find it a stumbling block that you won’t acknowledge the Theotokos, is it, schaick? It’s because it is dripping with Catholicism that you won’t touch it, right?
No I don’t say a man becomes GOD.

I say GOD’s Word became incarnate. GOD’s Word created the universe so is it not possible that it could also manifest to us on earth as Jesus?

The literal translation of one of the Quran verses says allah threw his word away to Mary when she conceived Jesus. Yet Muslims say allah can have no son, no partners.

I say Jesus is not a partner of GOD but is GOD, GOD’s Word incarnate. The Muslim believes the arabic Quran is literally allah’s word- not created, but eternal.

Jesus is the eternal Living Word of GOD. It is a perfect lead in to explaning the Trinity.
 
Ok questionable authorship and containing information inconsistent with Catholic teaching.
These are reasons it was not placed in the canon.
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 Not worthy to be deemed Scripture-yet worthy for some of it to be Tradition,
No, dear brother, you have it backwards. The protoevangelium as a literary work is not considered to be Sacred Tradition. In makes reference to the Sacred Tradition.

The Truth about God can be found in many places, for example, Paul quotes some Pagan literary works in his epistles. He confirms that these ideas are Truth, not necessarily the literature in which they are found.
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but Tradition is supposed to have equal footing with Scripture?
Yes. Both are forms of the Word of God.
Yes did any of the church Fathers even if written 50-90 years later then the Gospels that were included in canon reference the Protoevangelium of Joseph?
I am not familiar with any such work, so I can’t say.

If you mean to reference the Protoevangelium of James, it is thought to have been written early in the second century, after all four Gospels were written, so no, it would not have been used as source material for the Gospels. It reflects the thinking of the early second century.
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 I ask because if you are using part of the Protoevangelium of Joseph for tradition how do you know what part is truth and what part is just legend?
No, we do not use any part of non-canonical works "for tradition’. Sacred Tradition stands outside and above all these written works (because Sacred Tradition is the Word of God). What we see in some of the non-canonical writings are references to the Sacred Tradtition.

We know what part is Truth because the Truth is preserved infallibly by the HS in the Church. 😃

We observe in pious legends early stories that complement the Divine Deposit of Faith made once for all to the saints.
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Rev. Msgr. George W. Shea
marymediatrix-resourceonline.com/library/files/scholastic/mag_pevang.htm

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I can easily see Mary and Jesus in this verse but

I don’t get the leap from – I will put enmity between the serpant and Mary and between the serpant’s seed and Jesus, Jesus will bruise the serpent head and the serpent will bruise Jesus’ heel- to immaculate conception:
I can see why you would not get the leap. For us, it is not a “leap”, since we already see Mary as “all Holy”, we understand “enmity” to be complete separation and opposition from one another. There can be no part of evil or stain in that which is at total enmity with the devil.
In his Encyclical Ubi primum, Feb. 2, 1849, which directed the bishops of the universal Church to inform him what was the belief of their clergy and faithful and what their own belief concerning the Immaculate Conception, Pope Pius IX stated that Mary "crushed the head of the ancient serpent with her virtuous foot."78
*In the first place, the foundation of this doctrine [the Immaculate Conception] is to be found in Sacred Scripture, in which God, Creator of all things, after ‘the sad fall of Adam speaks to the serpent, the tempter and corrupter, in these words, which not a few Fathers, Doctors of the Church and very many approved interpreters refer to ‘the Virgin Mother of God: ‘I will put enmities between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed . . .‘ (Gen. 3, 15). Now, if at any time the Blessed Virgin Mary had been, because contaminated in her conception by the hereditary stain of sin, destitute of divine grace, for that moment at least, however brief, there would not have come between her and the serpent that perpetual enmity spoken of from earliest ‘tradition’ down to the time of the solemn definition of the Virgin’s Immaculate Conception, but rather a certain subjection.109 *

It is like a hint, just as the greeting of the angel is a hint. When the angel greets Mary as “Full of Grace” (a title, and not by her name) we understand this to mean that there is no room for sin in her. She is completely at enmity with sin, because she is at enmity with the author of sin.

You can see in these examples that Sacred Tradition is a world view, a perspective, and informs how we understand what is written. In the NT, Sacred Tradition is called “the Way”.
 
schaick;7152267]PRmerger-
It is the Proto-Gospel of James written about AD 150
Do Catholics consider this a part of the Gospel message- is it in the Catholic Bible?
As you already know, I think:eek:, the answer is no. Schaick, what would have given the CC the authority to include that book in the bound codified bible just as they eventually included the book of Revelation and the book of Hebrews in the bound codified bible, which were rejected by many for so long? You seem to be okay with the error free decisions of the CC when it comes to only certain things and then question the decision of the CC when it comes to other supposed error free decisions.

I don’t get that logic…:confused:
If not do you know why the Catholic Church failed in putting this into Scripture?
Because the CC had the authority, by God, to do so, due to the guidance of the HS. If they did not have the authority to make infallible decisions then the bible might not be the inspired word of God - right, wrong, maybe?
 
You can not come to that conclusions and I know of no Christians that ar anti Mary-I am not at all anti-Mary.
Really? I can’t? Well you obviously haven’t participated in some of these threads dealing with Mary have you. Yes they start out polite enough but by the time it gets to the end then they are pretty much anti-Mary.
What does that mean the mother of GOD? The mother of the Father, Son or Holy Spirit, all 3 only 2 of the 3 only 1 of the three?
Does it say that she is the mother of the Trinity? Where do you get that. Here it is again.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is fully God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

What is so difficult about that?
I have spent many years witnessing to Muslims. When witnessing to non-christians calling Mary the Mother of GOD is** a huge stumbling block.**
And? So you hide the truth to make them want to be Christian? How does that make since in anyone’s book. The stumbling block comes when you keep something from people because you think it is too hard for them to grasp. Would I start out teaching them about Mary being the mother of God? No. But if they asked I would tell them and explain to them why she has that title. Denying Mary being the Mother of God is denying that Jesus is God. Pure and simple as that.
What they think of as GOD we think of as GODHead.
No that is not quite true. What we think of as God they also think of as God. Both of us believe that there is only one God and we agree with just about all of the divine attributes except for God being Love. The difference comes in the differences of view about the Godhead as you would like to call it. They believe that God is one person. We believe God is three persons.
I always say Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Saviour a person of the Trinity- GODHead that is 100% human and 100% GOD.
You are correct in making this statement. But you must also understand that you are also saying that Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus is God. Why the resistence to this truth? I really just don’t get it.
 
I am not afraid to speak the truth. I am just not one to repeat myself over and over and over again. I am very grateful that guanophore ended this drama.
Why do I have to justify being thankful?

Thank you. 👍
I am just wondering why this is such a stumbling block for you.
 
Not worthy to be deemed Scripture-yet worthy for some of it to be Tradition, but Tradition is supposed to have equal footing with Scripture?
***NO, Schaick! The Proto-evangelium of James is NOT part of Sacred Tradition. *** :mad:

The Immaculate Conception is not part of the Deposit of Faith because it was mentioned in the PofJ.

It is part of the Deposit of Faith because it has been the teaching of the Apostles, and has been handed to us by God.
 
Really? I can’t? Well you obviously haven’t participated in some of these threads dealing with Mary have you. Yes they start out polite enough but by the time it gets to the end then they are pretty much anti-Mary.

Does it say that she is the mother of the Trinity? Where do you get that. Here it is again.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is fully God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

What is so difficult about that?

And? So you hide the truth to make them want to be Christian? How does that make since in anyone’s book. The stumbling block comes when you keep something from people because you think it is too hard for them to grasp. Would I start out teaching them about Mary being the mother of God? No. But if they asked I would tell them and explain to them why she has that title. Denying Mary being the Mother of God is denying that Jesus is God. Pure and simple as that.

No that is not quite true. What we think of as God they also think of as God. Both of us believe that there is only one God and we agree with just about all of the divine attributes except for God being Love. The difference comes in the differences of view about the Godhead as you would like to call it. They believe that God is one person. We believe God is three persons.

You are correct in making this statement. But you must also understand that you are also saying that Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus is God. Why the resistence to this truth? I really just don’t get it.
This is a misleading statement: “What we think of as God they also think of as God”. Christians and Muslims have 2 very different concepts of who GOD is.

That’s sad, but you do realize it is the Mary Dogmas, all the newly developed Dogmas and Doctrines that have separate trinitarian Christians. Why they don’t want to join the Catholic Church.

They are denying the accuracy of the wording- it doesn’t tell the whole story who each of the persons is, saying Mary is the mother 2nd person of GOD is much more accurate.

Is saying:
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is fully God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
too close to modalistic monarchianism? Is all of GOD Jesus?

LOL!! Of course I know but Muslims do not. When I first started some actually believed Mary was the 3rd person in the Trinity because of the wording of one of the verses in the Quran. I have noticed a shift in this thinking, maybe enough of us has pointed out the mistake?

Yes so you ease into the explanation- you don’t just say it out right, the very first thing. Many are capable of coming to that conclusion on their own. Not that they believe it but they understand the concept.
 
***NO, Schaick! The Proto-evangelium of James is NOT part of Sacred Tradition. *** :mad:

The Immaculate Conception is not part of the Deposit of Faith because it was mentioned in the PofJ.

It is part of the Deposit of Faith because it has been the teaching of the Apostles, and has been handed to us by God.
Sorry bear with me-

The Gospel deemed too questionable to be Scripture contains the thought of Mary’s immaculate conception and it is not a part of the deposit of faith?

I think someone just explained to me that the deposit of faith was everything- Scripture and tradition.

Which is why I thought it would be considered tradition. It isn’t in Scripture and so must be tradition to be on equal footing. Wait the Proto-evangelium of James is not on equal footing with Scripture? right?
 
Sorry bear with me-

The Gospel deemed too questionable to be Scripture contains the thought of Mary’s immaculate conception and it is not a part of the deposit of faith?
Yes, it is not part of the deposit of faith. As guanophore mentioned, St. Paul writes of some of the truth of pagan writings, yet, clearly, he does not consider the pagan writings to be* theopneustos*. He’s simply taking a truth from their writings and utilizing it.
**
“The Truth about God can be found in many places, for example, Paul quotes some Pagan literary works in his epistles. He confirms that these ideas are Truth, not necessarily the literature in which they are found”–guanophore
**
So the fact that the PofJ contains some truth does not mean it’s inspired.
I think someone just explained to me that the deposit of faith was everything- Scripture and tradition.
Yes.
Which is why I thought it would be considered tradition.
The dogma of the IC is part of Deposit of Faith, not the Pof J
It isn’t in Scripture and so must be tradition to be on equal footing. Wait the Proto-evangelium of James is not on equal footing with Scripture? right?
You must keep your pronouns using the same antecedent, schaick. You seem to be interchanging them arbitrarily.

If by “it” the antecedent is the PofJ, then it is not on equal footing with Scripture and Tradition.

If by “it” the antecedent is the dogma of the IC, then yes, it is on equal footing with Scripture.

The PofJ and the IC are not one and the same.
 
This is a misleading statement: “What we think of as God they also think of as God”. Christians and Muslims have 2 very different concepts of who GOD is.
You are correct there are two very different concepts of who God is but not what God is. Our beliefs systems again are almost identical concerning the Divine Attributes of God except for God being Love.
That’s sad, but you do realize it is the Mary Dogmas, all the newly developed Dogmas and Doctrines that have separate trinitarian Christians. Why they don’t want to join the Catholic Church.
Truth is the truth. You can’t hide it. That is when you start compromising your beliefs. If I was witnessing to you what it is to be Catholic and I starting hiding things because you may disagree with them then we want get anywhere would we? My church must stand on its beliefs no matter how other Christians think of them. There are alot of Christians out there that don’t believe in the Trinity either. Should we stop referring to God as Trinity because it is a stumbling block for some Christians? There is a slippery slope here that you start falling down very quickly.
They are denying the accuracy of the wording- it doesn’t tell the whole story who each of the persons is, saying Mary is the mother 2nd person of GOD is much more accurate.

Is saying:
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is fully God.
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
too close to modalistic monarchianism? Is all of GOD Jesus?
The answer is no. Is Jesus fully God? Is Jesus fully man? If you answer yes to both of these premises then Mary is the mother of God. Modalist would have a problem with Mary being the mother of God. Trinitarians shouldn’t.
LOL!! Of course I know but Muslims do not. When I first started some actually believed Mary was the 3rd person in the Trinity because of the wording of one of the verses in the Quran. I have noticed a shift in this thinking, maybe enough of us has pointed out the mistake?

Yes so you ease into the explanation- you don’t just say it out right, the very first thing. Many are capable of coming to that conclusion on their own. Not that they believe it but they understand the concept.
Well may God be with you on your ministry. Were I am from there isn’t a lot of Muslims so I have never had a real opportunity to witness to them frequent enough to study the Quran.
 
Yes, it is not part of the deposit of faith. As guanophore mentioned, St. Paul writes of some of the truth of pagan writings, yet, clearly, he does not consider the pagan writings to be* theopneustos*. He’s simply taking a truth from their writings and utilizing it.
**
“The Truth about God can be found in many places, for example, Paul quotes some Pagan literary works in his epistles. He confirms that these ideas are Truth, not necessarily the literature in which they are found”–guanophore
**
So the fact that the PofJ contains some truth does not mean it’s inspired.

Yes.

The dogma of the IC is part of Deposit of Faith, not the Pof J

You must keep your pronouns using the same antecedent, schaick. You seem to be interchanging them arbitrarily.

If by “it” the antecedent is the PofJ, then it is not on equal footing with Scripture and Tradition.

If by “it” the antecedent is the dogma of the IC, then yes, it is on equal footing with Scripture.

The PofJ and the IC are not one and the same.
lol! Sorry. The “it” is immaculate conception.

OK I think I’ve got it:
There was not a one time,single deposit of information/faith, but an ever developing progressing snowballing collection of thoughts that some, not all church Fathers started around 100 AD with Mary being the new Eve, not immaculate growing to co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate.

Catholics need no real proof because of the Doctrines/Dogmas of Sacred Tradition and infallibility. Both of which appear to be newly developed also.
Is this true- 1545A.D Council of Trent tradition of equal authority with scripture?
 
There was not a one time,single deposit of information/faith, but an ever developing progressing snowballing collection of thoughts that some, not all church Fathers started around 100 AD with Mary being the new Eve, not immaculate growing to co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate.
This is not correct. There *was *a one time single deposit of information/faith and it was a Person. It was called the Incarnation.

This Person revealed the entirety of Truth that’s accessible to us through His Body, the Catholic Church.

This Person revealed the Truth of the Immaculate Conception through His Body, and our understanding of this Truth has developed over time.
Catholics need no real proof because of the Doctrines/Dogmas of Sacred Tradition and infallibility. Both of which appear to be newly developed also.
This is also incorrect.

Catholics need no real proof because we have faith in the Person who revealed these doctrines/dogmas of infallibility through 2 channels: Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
Is this true- 1545A.D Council of Trent tradition of equal authority with scripture?
Alas, this is also incorrect. The Council of Trent is the* servant* of Scripture and Tradition.
 
We know the nature of Jesus, the nature of GOD through Scripture- we can verify statements of faith, the trinity doctrine, etc.

The Mary Dogmas are about Mary- not the nature of Jesus. ]
Everything about Mary is related to the nature of Jesus.

For example, Mary’s role as Mother of God was formally declared to combat the Arian heresies which denied the divinity of Jesus.
 
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