Developing Dogmas and Doctrines

[Reuben_J]

You should start a new thread about that.

I was just thinking out loud.

Why is that when we talk about new dogmas and doctrines it is always about Catholicism and not Protestantism? OK I won’t derail this thread and I would just leave it as that.

 

[Reuben_J]

THank you Reuben, you are very kind, but it is only thinking with the heart

I have read some of your posts and I thought they were very balanced. Thank you too.

 

[PRmerger]

**What new dogmas **or doctrines have been developed about Jesus that were not laid out first in the Bible?

I can’t think of any and am curious about it.

Transubstantiation

And the Trinity.

And the canon of Scripture.

And the hypostatic union–Christ is one person with 2 natures

 

[schaick]

Transubstantiation

Thanks!

The thought of Real Presence is very much Scripture based, I do believe in Real Presence but not as the Bread and Wine changing into the Body and Blood, but that Christ’s Spiritual and Ressurrected Body and Blood is present in, under and with the wafer, not that the Bread abd Wine are changed into it.

John 6
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
…
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
…
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

The questions then are:
How we consume the Body and Blood of Christ in the Bread and Wine is not fully descibed - does it really matter?

Does our salvation rest on agreeing with this explanation?

Why?

**Can it be proven that this is what the Disciples believed? ** Can you show the chain of transmission of this doctrine?

Can you be a Catholic and believe Jesus is not talking human flesh here but Jesus’ Ressurrected Body or HIS Spiritual Body?

 

[PRmerger]

Is belief in the developed doctrine or dogma required for our salvation?

IMHO any Christian who asks this question is asking the exact wrong question.
As apologist Mark Shea says,

No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then **“How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” **is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ

.

 

[schaick]

I was just thinking out loud.

Why is that when we talk about new dogmas and doctrines it is always about Catholicism and not Protestantism? OK I won’t derail this thread and I would just leave it as that.

You know what - go ahead on this thread. The reason I was so protective of the topic is no Catholic has ever answered me.

But I was given one - Transubstantiation. Are there any others.

PRmerger said -
*“IMHO any Christian who asks this question is asking the exact wrong question.
As apologist Mark Shea says,” *

*No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then “How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ *

My response:

I am not asking for the absolute minimum but trying to decide is if the Catholic Church is teaching a way to salvation other then the Gospel message in the Bible.

I am told by Catholics on this forum that I am the one who is preaching another gospel.

So I ask do you have to believe the Mary Dogmas, Pope infallibility, etc.?

My faith is completely Jesus focused - my example of perfect human, righteous and holy, odedient SON, Saviour, everything points to Jesus, my thoughts and deeds.

All of GOD"S Word saved for us in the Holy Bible points to Jesus and how we can have a good relationship with GOD.

Yet I am told by Catholics on this forum that I am the one who is preaching another gospel?

 

[JonNC]

And the Trinity.

And the canon of Scripture.

And the hypostatic union–Christ is one person with 2 natures

I guess it would depend on what schaick means by " not **laid out **first in the Bible".
Perhaps you have a point about the canon of scripture, but the Trinity and hypostatic union seem to me to be reasonalbly well laid out. The terms are of man made origin, but they describe these well.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger said -
*“IMHO any Christian who asks this question is asking the exact wrong question.
As apologist Mark Shea says,” *

*No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then “How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ *

My response:

I am not asking for the absolute minimum but trying to decide is if the Catholic Church is teaching a way to salvation other then the Gospel message in the Bible.

To ask, “Is this a required belief for salvation” is analogous to a husband asking his wife, “Am I required to ________ in order to enjoy the marital embrace?” Cheeky question, isn’t it? I doubt any wife would take kindly to that question.

I’m just sayin’…

 

[schaick]

And the Trinity.

And the canon of Scripture.

And the hypostatic union–Christ is one person with 2 natures

The canon is not really a doctrine about Jesus, but about GOD’s Word.

Yes but the Trinity is Bible based.

Hypostatic union Bible based-

GOD / MAN
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33). /He worshiped the Father (John 17).
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8) /He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1) /He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59). /He prayed to the Father (John 17).
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15). /He was tempted (Matt. 4:1).
He knows all things (John 21:17). /He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
He gives eternal life (John 10:28). /He died (Rom. 5:8).
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9). /He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

As is the Nicene creed:
prayerfoundation.org/nicene_creed_scripture_basis.htm

 

[PRmerger]

I guess it would depend on what schaick means by " not **laid out **first in the Bible".
Perhaps you have a point about the canon of scripture, but the Trinity and hypostatic union seem to me to be reasonalbly well laid out. The terms are of man made origin, but they describe these well.

Jon

There are quite a few students of the Sacred Word who would disagree with your assessment that the Trinity and hypostatic union are “reasonably well laid out” in Scripture.

 

[schaick]

To ask, “Is this a required belief for salvation” is analogous to a husband asking his wife, “Am I required to ________ in order to enjoy the marital embrace?” Cheeky question, isn’t it? I doubt any wife would take kindly to that question.

I’m just sayin’…

Why can’t Catholics answer? Is it because they themselves don’t know?

Does a person have to believe in the Mary Dogmas, Pope infallibility, all the later developed doctrines to be save?

 

[PRmerger]

Why can’t Catholics answer? Is it because they themselves don’t know?

We “don’t answer” (although I would argue that the question has indeed been answered) because we are not statisticians as to the demographics of hell.

 

[JonNC]

There are quite a few students of the Sacred Word who would disagree with your assessment that the Trinity and hypostatic union are “reasonably well laid out” in Scripture.

Interesting list of those who oppose the doctrine of the Trinity, I must admit. Would you agree with me that all of them are outside Christian orthodoxy? Also, would you agree with me that they are reasonably well laid out (well, reasonably well enough for the early Church)?

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

Does a person have to believe in the Mary Dogmas, Pope infallibility, all the later developed doctrines to be save?

Strive to enter in.

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting list of those who oppose the doctrine of the Trinity, I must admit. Would you agree with me that all of them are outside Christian orthodoxy?

Yes, indeed I would.

Also, would you agree with me that they are reasonably well laid out (well, reasonably well enough for the early Church)?

Jon

I would agree that there is material sufficiency in the Scriptures for the dogmas of the Trinity and hypostatic union; however, one needs the Church in order to obtain the fullness of Truth regarding these dogmas.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, indeed I would.

I would agree that there is material sufficiency in the Scriptures for the dogmas of the Trinity and hypostatic union; however, one needs the Church in order to obtain the fullness of Truth regarding these dogmas.

I agree that this is the importance of the Church and Tradition.

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

When somebody says does someone need to believe in the dogma of Mary to be saved?

God alone is the author of our salvation. But the Church is here to guide and nurture us in the Lord.

What Protestants are missing to a high degree is the experience of holiness in the sacraments, experiencing a most profound presence in Christ that is also transcendent and in mystery…revealing to us we will never know completely God…but an experience to enjoy for all eternity…And faith in God helps us to connect to other persons and to all of His creation.

What Protestants are also missing is the spirituality and Catholic teachings brought to us by our communion of saints. There is a consistent pattern of thought among the saints about how to grow in sanctity. And the more we saw the way pointed out for us by them…who came after the apostles, the more we came to know ourselves.

Then there is Mary, conceived without sin. Mary is the bridge to God and she is a creature and she is also part of us.

It took the church a very long time to understand the spirituality of Mary. And what her dogmas proclaim is the spiritual walk and blessing in God by someone who never sinned. What is reflected in the soul of Mary relates to us.

Some day we will be like Mary, together with her in heaven, where we no longer have any stain of sin on us, no longer any desire to sin.

So the dogmas of Mary reflect the kind of state of faith in God through Christ as creatures that we will have with her in heaven.

 

[KathleenGee]

Here is a prayer composed by John Paul II, at the beginning of the Marian year, 1987.

"Mother of the Redeemer, in this year dedicated to you,
with great joy we call you blessed.
In order to carry out his providential plan of salvation, God the Father chose you
before the creation of the world.
You believed in his love and obeyed his word. The Son of God desired you for his mother
when he became man to save the human race.
You received him
with ready obedience and undivided heart.
The Holy Spirit loved you as his mystical spouse and he filled you with singular gifts.
You allowed yourself to be led by his hidden and powerful action.

On the eve of the third Christian Millenium, we entrust to you the Church which
acknowledges you and invokes you as Mother.
On earth you preceded the Church in the pilgrimage of faith:
comfort her in her difficulties and trials, and make her always the sign and instrument
of intimate union with God and of the unity of the whole human race.

To you, Mother of Christians,
we entrust in a special way the peoples who are celebrating, during this Marian Year,
the sixth Centenary or the Millenium of their acceptance of the Gospel,
Their long history is profoundly marked by devotion to you.
Turn towards them your loving glance: give strength to those who are suffering for the .
faith.

To you, Mother of the human family and of the nations,
we confidently entrust the whole of humanity, with its hopes and fears.
Do not let it lack the light of true wisdom.
Guide its steps in the ways of peace.
Enable all to meet Christ,
the way and the truth and the life.
Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace
of eternal salvation.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God, and our Mother, Mary!" Amen.

Devotion to Mary brings us that great and deep experience of Jesus, and brings us closer to Him.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The question you have to ask “yourself”, is, are your better off with or without Mary? Because it definatly makes a difference.

 

[JonNC]

The question you have to ask “yourself”, is, are your better off with or without Mary? Because it definatly makes a difference.

Hi Gary,
Could you elaborate on what you mean by “with Mary” and “without Mary”?

Jon