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GaryTaylor
Guest
Do you have children?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Thats great Jon,
Then let me expand. I had much difficulty accepting the truth of Mary. I grew up in the Catholic faith, school, church etc. Yet all of the males in my family really didn’t have a reverence for Mary. While for example my mother. grandmother, aunt etc did.
They remained the ones ones firmly rooted in Christology decade after decade.
As time and trials in life passed, I sought to gain a better understanding of Mary. Thanks be to our Lord, I was blessed with an open mind.
At any rate the clear understanding for me came with the children. I immediatly understood a simple truth. Without a doubt I dealt with the children differently than my wife did.
Its not that either was wrong or right. I just looked at specifics in a very black and white manner. My wife has more patience, is more willing to listen, more willing to mix justice with humility and mercy. Another open minded point of view is really what it is.
I see Heaven similiar to this today. I’m convinced without a doubt you can pray and depend on God and be fine. My father was a good man and did exactly this. I’m positive he’s in heaven. Yet I’ve also come to believe now that theres a very real intercession with Mary with her Son that I didn’t grasp for years. Through the children it just makes perfect sense to me now. I see no reason why it would be different in heaven than it is here.
The other reality which I started to explain earlier is another part of Mary which is talked about here on this forum which I also missed for years. I’m conviced through practical experience that Mary acts in a very protective motherly way with all her children. I believe devotion to her deepens faith and draws one closer to God in very real and fast manner. Matter of fact I’m convinced of it now.
I can hear the words in my head; “Just give the Rosary and honest chance”. Well I decided I was going to do just that. No half stepping, I’ll pray the Rosary daily and consistantly and see what happens.
I found myself being led in faith. I actually feel like I’m being carried now in directions. And every path its taken me has bought me right back to Christ.
As I mentioned, I had gone to Catholic School and while all were aware of the Blessed Mother and Saints etc. We were never pushed in this direction. And thus I concluded, “I don’t have to do that”. And I didn’t have to, and I didn’t.
Yet whats most ironic, is its Mary who I believe truly brought me to Christ. I just wasn’t solidly rooted in faith like I am now. I always felt like there was something missing. I don’t feel that way today. I feel like there was a fog lifted from me. And a clarity in faith that followed.
God Bless, Gary
Then let me expand. I had much difficulty accepting the truth of Mary. I grew up in the Catholic faith, school, church etc. Yet all of the males in my family really didn’t have a reverence for Mary. While for example my mother. grandmother, aunt etc did.
They remained the ones ones firmly rooted in Christology decade after decade.
As time and trials in life passed, I sought to gain a better understanding of Mary. Thanks be to our Lord, I was blessed with an open mind.
At any rate the clear understanding for me came with the children. I immediatly understood a simple truth. Without a doubt I dealt with the children differently than my wife did.
Its not that either was wrong or right. I just looked at specifics in a very black and white manner. My wife has more patience, is more willing to listen, more willing to mix justice with humility and mercy. Another open minded point of view is really what it is.
I see Heaven similiar to this today. I’m convinced without a doubt you can pray and depend on God and be fine. My father was a good man and did exactly this. I’m positive he’s in heaven. Yet I’ve also come to believe now that theres a very real intercession with Mary with her Son that I didn’t grasp for years. Through the children it just makes perfect sense to me now. I see no reason why it would be different in heaven than it is here.
The other reality which I started to explain earlier is another part of Mary which is talked about here on this forum which I also missed for years. I’m conviced through practical experience that Mary acts in a very protective motherly way with all her children. I believe devotion to her deepens faith and draws one closer to God in very real and fast manner. Matter of fact I’m convinced of it now.
I can hear the words in my head; “Just give the Rosary and honest chance”. Well I decided I was going to do just that. No half stepping, I’ll pray the Rosary daily and consistantly and see what happens.
I found myself being led in faith. I actually feel like I’m being carried now in directions. And every path its taken me has bought me right back to Christ.
As I mentioned, I had gone to Catholic School and while all were aware of the Blessed Mother and Saints etc. We were never pushed in this direction. And thus I concluded, “I don’t have to do that”. And I didn’t have to, and I didn’t.
Yet whats most ironic, is its Mary who I believe truly brought me to Christ. I just wasn’t solidly rooted in faith like I am now. I always felt like there was something missing. I don’t feel that way today. I feel like there was a fog lifted from me. And a clarity in faith that followed.
God Bless, Gary
Gary,
Thank you for your moving testimony. I agree with you that, properly done, the example of faith and obedience of the Blessed Virgin can be a guiding light for many who, by grace, have come to faith in her son. I thank God that this has been an important factor in your journey of faith.
In many ways, I agree with the idea that, just as Mary is the mother of the Savior, our brother, she is in a manner of speaking our mother, as well.
While invocation is not part of the Lutheran Tradition, we clearly recognize that she prays for us in the Church Militant.
Jon
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GaryTaylor
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Its another Blessing all don’t receive Jon. I’ve come to view it this way.
One I"m positive I needed.to connect correctly. Being a good person in Faith, just wasn’t working for me. Wasn’t enough.
If your connected solidly in your faith and rooted. Your fine then. The Jesus Christ you pray to is no different than the one I do.
Yet, its those who struggle I would be skeptical to not suggest Our Lady to.
One I"m positive I needed.to connect correctly. Being a good person in Faith, just wasn’t working for me. Wasn’t enough.
If your connected solidly in your faith and rooted. Your fine then. The Jesus Christ you pray to is no different than the one I do.
Yet, its those who struggle I would be skeptical to not suggest Our Lady to.
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Reuben_J
Guest
That’s great point on Mary, Gary.
A Christian who have no experience like you do as regards to Mary in edifying their faith are unable to comment on the importance of Mary in the life of a believer.
I like the part when you said, ‘give the Rosary a chance’.
I am not Marian in spirituality but Rosary is a major component in my prayer. I have never experience any loss when praying it but rather things seem to be answered in a mysterious way. I want to support your statement - we have nothing to lose when we ask Mary to intercede for us but in fact on the contrary. In a sense Protestants do miss God’s given natural intercessor to help them in living out their faith when they reject Mary.
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Reuben_J
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To the OP:
By the same token, Protestants has developed a new dogma and doctrine when they rejected Mary as an intercessor. She had been one even before the inception of Christianity.
And this is but one example of new dogma and doctrine sprouting out from Protestantism.
By the same token, Protestants has developed a new dogma and doctrine when they rejected Mary as an intercessor. She had been one even before the inception of Christianity.
And this is but one example of new dogma and doctrine sprouting out from Protestantism.
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guanophore
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You are posting this on the non-Catholic section, so maybe you are not looking for Catholic Answers?
None of the Catholic doctrines about Jesus come from the Bible. Neither does any of the rest of the Catholic faith. The Church founded by Christ is not a “bible based” church like the modern evangelical innovations. All of the doctrines of the Catholic Church come from Jesus Himself, through the Apostles. All of the Teachings about Jesus were whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written.
What develops is our understanding of the doctrine. As our understanding deepens, or is applied to modern issues that were not present in NT times, doctrine is explained or understood better. Examples of this are the development of the terms “hypostatic union” and “Trinity” in relation to the identity of Christ.
The other thing you might need to know about Catholic doctrine is that Catholics believe public revelation closed with the death of the last Apostle. We are not at liberty to develop that which was not already included in the “once for all” Divine deposit of faith committed to the Church.
One of them is that humans do not have the liberty to decide what is necessary for our salvation. We are God’s creatures, and He is responsible for saving us (there is nothing we can do to save ourselves). As such, it is He who decides what is necessary for our salvation. His decisions are revealed to us through His Church.
The belief that you get to decide what is required, and what is not is contrary to the revelation of God.
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guanophore
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I don’t think any such wish exists in this case.
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guanophore
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This is one of the critical differences between dogma and doctrine. Doctrine is handed down to us from the Apostles. WHen there are heresies, it is the duty of the Church to clarify and confront error. At that point, the Church declares that which has always been believed (received through the paradosis). That declaration is a dogma, and it is based upon a doctrine (Teaching of the Apostles).
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mark_a
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Dogma can’t be denied by the faithful. Expert knowledge is not “really required” for our salvation.
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guanophore
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Transubstantiation, actually, is the logical conclusion of what “in, under, and with” means.
In the East, we prefer to leave this in the form of a mystery. However, yes, id does matter. When one rejects the Apostolic Faith, one has departed from what God has revealed as necessary for our salvation. He was clear that, unless we eat His Body, and drink His Blood, we will have no life in us. If you can figure out how you can be saved but still have no life in you, more power to you.
No, our salvation rests on Christ, and what He has revealed about what is necessary.
Because He created us, and it is His perogative to decide what is necessary.
No, I do not believe so. It is an article of faith, that must be received by faith, and in faith. Because it is a revelation of the Most Holy God, it is above and beyond the limited mental exercises of “proofs”. Besides, these are the realm of science, not Divine Mysteries. I can’t prove to you that there is a God, either.
This may come as a shock to you schaick, but Jesus’ intention is to redeem human flesh. He resurrected human flesh, and took it into heaven with Him.
But yes, resurrected flesh is not the same as non-resurrected (ie, we do not beleive in cannabilism).
When Jesus said “the flesh is of no avail” He was talking about the impossibility of the human mind to grasp this complex divine mystery. It is beyond our ability to grasp with the carnal rational ability.
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guanophore
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Have you ever considered that this is because your question is based upon a faulty premise?
Why would you need to decide that?
The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. The Church did not allow any material into the canon of Scripture that was not consistent with the Teaching of the Apostles infallibly preserved in the Church.
I can pretty well promise you, though, that your perceptions of what the Bible has to say will appear to contradict what the Church teaches. This always happens when the Scriptures are interpreted outside of their context, which is the Catholic Church.
Yes. It is a gospel that we cannot accept, or we will be anathema. It is a departure from what we have received from our Apostles. I don’t think it is your fault, though. I think you got a truncated gospel, and you are as faithful to it as you are able to be.
For us, it is not a question of “what do I have to believe” but the joy that we have received the fullness of faith that has been faithfully echoed from the Apostles’ day to our own.
Hopefully this sincere devotion will lead you one day to the One Church founded by Him.
Yes, but not all of God’s Word is confined to the pages of Scripture.
You stand in the tradition of Apollos.
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schaick
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What fullness is a Christian missing if their statement of faith is the Nicene Creed?
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schaick
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Yes I agree the Church is to guide and nuture us-fellowship, Sunday School,etc.
Catholics believe there is a lacking of spirituality in Christian Churches and no communion of saints?
This is so interesting - I am realizing that in fact the thought of the **Catholic Mary Dogmas actually hinder my relatonship with Mary **and do not bridge to Jesus. **I can not relate to the sinless Mary. **
The Catholic Mary:
**Mary being born sinless makes her obedience easier, not that big of a deal then since she was not a sinner, a commoner like the rest of us. She never would have or could have questioned obedience to GOD’s request. Spiritual walk yet having never sinned- big deal? ** It would have been so easy for her. She would not have worried about Jesus as HE was on the cross - worry and not trusting in the Lord.
Biblical Mary:
Now considering the Biblical evidence of who she was - born a sinner needing a Saviour just like the rest of us. **She is the perfect example of an obedient woman **and is the bridge between the perfect obedient sinless man and the sinful man.
Like any sinner:
- 29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be
…
34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
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38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” *
There is no better example of trust in and obedience to GOD in the Bible then Mary.
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schaick
Guest
Ok yes I have been told that before “None of the Catholic doctrines about Jesus come from the Bible.” It might have actually been you.
I think I understand what you are saying but it could be taken to mean that none of the catholic teachings are Gospel.
I am not sure I understand your arguement. If a Christian follows GOD’s Word then of course the teaching is from Jesus and the Apostles with concrete evidence- no questioning needed.
Sorry but those are Bible based- the concept is in the Bible which is why all Trinitarian Christinas agree on these.
The Mary Dogmas, infallibility etc., are not so there is disagreement-dividing the universal Church.
Except for infallibility? This was not present with the Apostles, and not seen until much later in the history of the Catholic Church.
Agree
Interesting, but not HIS Word? Didn’t GOD"s Word exist first whether written or oral?
HIS WORD taught HIS Word to the recruited Disciples → the message revealed to them → then Jesus says He will built HIS Church → then in Jerusalem the Church was started.
Who said we get to decide what is required? What is required is laid out for us in the Bible.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Schaik,
The Protestants and Catholics share the same spirituality of the Holy Spirit, but you not have the spirituality of the Eucharist, of the sacraments, of the Mother of God and the communion of saints, all that come from the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.
Now the Protestants come on here at times to invalidate our faith and make us out to be a man made religion.
I have gone to and heard teachings at Protestant services, on radio and television, but it is devoid of mysticism, of deep spirituality that gives life and connects to the depth of one’s soul. So in essence, I hear all the same Gospel passages, I will hear a phrase or two that lights a spark in me, but the rest of it is only touching on the surface with a sweeping brush.
The other thing I notice in Fundamentalist churches is that you only reflect on the Old Testament. There is no witness, except day to day ordinary experiences, or extraordinary ones about people in combat or a healing. You don’t have the spirituality and the living out of faith by Catholic saints. These people, found in every generation, that are the counterpoint, or fulfillment if you wish to say as they have found Jesus, to the figures of the Old Testament.
Just today I finished a case for a woman who is the epitome of the woman of God in Scripture. She raised 10 kids, 5 boys and 5 girls, her husband a nationally known professional sports player who had to be gone part of the year. Her home is meticulous, she has to this day her canning area in the basement, she has sown clothes for all her children, she made bridal dresses for various weddings of nieces, she even made clothes for her husband. I have never been in such a meticulous home as hers and her children’s pictures, and that of her husband adorn her walls… As well as pictures of Christ, the Last Supper and the Blessed Mother.
Certainly there are Protestant women like her. There is a Catholic woman from Italy who has become a saint…she was single, then married, then widowed and I will come back with her life story. Our saints have alot to share with us in living out our faith nurtured and sustained by the Eucharist, and in enduring the Cross.
The Protestants and Catholics share the same spirituality of the Holy Spirit, but you not have the spirituality of the Eucharist, of the sacraments, of the Mother of God and the communion of saints, all that come from the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.
Now the Protestants come on here at times to invalidate our faith and make us out to be a man made religion.
I have gone to and heard teachings at Protestant services, on radio and television, but it is devoid of mysticism, of deep spirituality that gives life and connects to the depth of one’s soul. So in essence, I hear all the same Gospel passages, I will hear a phrase or two that lights a spark in me, but the rest of it is only touching on the surface with a sweeping brush.
The other thing I notice in Fundamentalist churches is that you only reflect on the Old Testament. There is no witness, except day to day ordinary experiences, or extraordinary ones about people in combat or a healing. You don’t have the spirituality and the living out of faith by Catholic saints. These people, found in every generation, that are the counterpoint, or fulfillment if you wish to say as they have found Jesus, to the figures of the Old Testament.
Just today I finished a case for a woman who is the epitome of the woman of God in Scripture. She raised 10 kids, 5 boys and 5 girls, her husband a nationally known professional sports player who had to be gone part of the year. Her home is meticulous, she has to this day her canning area in the basement, she has sown clothes for all her children, she made bridal dresses for various weddings of nieces, she even made clothes for her husband. I have never been in such a meticulous home as hers and her children’s pictures, and that of her husband adorn her walls… As well as pictures of Christ, the Last Supper and the Blessed Mother.
Certainly there are Protestant women like her. There is a Catholic woman from Italy who has become a saint…she was single, then married, then widowed and I will come back with her life story. Our saints have alot to share with us in living out our faith nurtured and sustained by the Eucharist, and in enduring the Cross.
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guanophore
Guest
“All that Jesus began to do and to teach” as Luke opens his history. As you can see in Acts 2 the new converts devoted themselves to the Sacraments, the prayers, and the Teachings of the Apostles. This is a summary of what is contained in Sacred Tradition.
I notice you left out the authority that Jesus gave to His Apostles to govern and resolve disputes.
There are many of our separated brethren that embrace the Apostolic Teaching on the communion of saints (also included in the creed).
Besides, Christians who reject parts of the Apostolic faith only nullify their existence to themselves. The refusal to believe in the communion of the saints does not make them go away for the rest of us, or make them somehow into “no communion of saints”.
This is a very important insight schaick!
Since all the Marian doctrines were developed through Christology, this insight reveals that there is a serious deficiency in your Christology. It is one of the reasons that the Marian doctrines are so important. Mary’s soul 'magnifies the Lord". When we look through her soul, Jesus should appear bigger (magnified). If for some reason he does not, then there is something wrong with the perspective of the one looking.
In fact, Jesus wants us all to be as sinless as Mary, and if you cannot grasp this, then your understanding of the Faith committed to the saints is in need of repair. God did not create man with sin, but immaculately. It is His intention that we be immaculate with Him in heaven for eternity. Therefore, if you cannot relate yourself to sinlessness, then you are missing the boat.
I think you are confusing walking in grace to not being human. Mary clearly worried, as is evidenced by the story of getting separated from Jesus in the Temple. She suffered, as a sword pierced her own heart also. These aspects of humanity are not sinful, they are part of who we are.
You are right, though, concupiscence, or the sin nature that Mary did not have does make it more difficult for us to believe and obey. However, where sin abouts, grace abounds even more.
Can you show a verse that says Mary was “born a sinner”.
Also, the Church teaches that John the Baptist was filled with the HS (saved) while he was still in the womb, so was also born without original sin.
For some reason you seem to relate better to people who fall short of God’s plan than those who do not? This is a strange phenomenon.
It is not a sin to be greatly troubled. Jesus also suffered this way in the Garden of Gethesemane. Do you believe He sinned?
Joseph was able to accept her special status because of a revelation from God. Her community, however, was not so generous. When they called Jesus “the son of Mary” it was really a slur. It meant they believed he was the product of fornication or adultery.
Well, schaick, you do have at least a portion of the Divine Revelation. It is my prayer that you will come to the part you are missing. May the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, pray for you.
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guanophore
Guest
I did not realize this myself until I learned it here on CAF. As a former “bible christian” I can assure you that I found the concept shocking and appalling at first.
You can see, though, from the point of view that the Church preceeded the NT, how it is that Catholics do not attempt to extract doctrine from the pages of Scripture. On the contrary, the pages of Scripture reflect the doctrine that Jesus left with the Church.
Yes, and it is taken this way by many fundamentalists, who have been taught that the Catholic Church has apostacized, integrated paganism, become the whore of Babylon, etc, etc. some people hate the Catholic Church so much they can’t even receive Christ from her.
Many people think they are following God’s Word, but the reality is that they are following their perception of His Word.
And, people even question concrete evidence, like miracles performed by the saints through the centuries, including eucharistic miracles. There are signs like the incorruptible saints, and yet, people still question the authenticity of CAtholicism.
No, schaick, they are not “bible based”. They are REFLECTED in Scripture because the NT is the PRODUCT of the Church. The basis of Catholic Doctrine is Christ Himself.
Yes, but this disagreement did not emerge until the errant doctrine of Sola Scriptura was invented. The Apostles did not teach that Christian doctrine is “bible based”.
You don’t think the Aposltes believed the HS was guiding them into all Truth?
Don’t you think it would take a lot of cheek to start a letter by saying “it seemed right to the HS and to us”…if they did not believe their decision was in perfect unity with the infallible HS?
Yes. His Word has never been confined to the Holy Scriptures.
Yes. And it was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. Jesus is just as able to preserve His Word in the Church as He is on parchment.
What you are doing is using your own perceptions of what you are reading, and calling it God’s opinion. This is your perogative, of course, and has been exercised since SS was invented. However, your conclusions represent a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught, resulting in “a different gospel” than the one they delivered.
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PRmerger
Guest
Then how is it that you can “relate” to Jesus?
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