Developing Dogmas and Doctrines

[schaick]

Does this make sense? Bear with me at my Sunday School, Church and children’s Church grade school we learn Bible Stories not about dogmas and doctrines.

**There are no newly developed dogmas and doctrines about Jesus all concepts/knowledge about Jesus was put into Scripture **but not all knowledge of Mary, Popes and their duties, the heirarchy of the Catholic Church, Joseph, etc. was in Scripture so it was developed.

It is not tradition because of the gaps - was not passed down directly from one generation to another- it is a developed teaching.

A teaching trying to explain something GOD did not deem necessary to put in HIS Word because it did not deal with the Gospel message of Jesus directly and our salvation.

There is no evidence from the apostles/disciples about the Mary Dogmas because it is not a tradition, but a developed dogmas! Like the book bag story - a teaching that after a few hundred years became a tradition.

I had realized on an earlier thread-What is the Sacred Traditions of the Catholic Church all revolve around the authority of the Catholic Church-passng on of keys, the authority to develop new dogmas and doctrines, etc.

Which is all very intersting because there was really no need to develop the immaculate conception of Mary. In Judaism, it is from the father that sinful nature is passed and jewishness is from the mother.

Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15
21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[schaick]

Does this make sense? Bear with me at my Sunday School, Church and children’s Church grade school we learn Bible Stories not about dogmas and doctrines.

**There are no newly developed dogmas and doctrines about Jesus all concepts/knowledge about Jesus was put into Scripture **but not all knowledge of Mary, Popes and their duties, the heirarchy of the Catholic Church, Joseph, etc. was in Scripture so it was developed.

It is not tradition because of the gaps - was not passed down directly from one generation to another- it is a developed teaching.

A teaching trying to explain something GOD did not deem necessary to put in HIS Word because it did not deal with the Gospel message of Jesus directly and our salvation.

There is no evidence from the apostles/disciples about the Mary Dogmas because it is not a tradition, but a developed dogmas! Like the book bag story - a teaching that after a few hundred years became a tradition.

I had realized on an earlier thread-What is the Sacred Traditions of the Catholic Church all revolve around the authority of the Catholic Church-passng on of keys, the authority to develop new dogmas and doctrines, etc.

Which is all very intersting because there was really no need to develop the immaculate conception of Mary. In Judaism, it is from the father that sinful nature is passed and jewishness is from the mother.

Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15
21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[schaick]

Sorry for the double post- no that wasn’t the fault of my grandson this time.

Just a couple of days ago and just after I submitted this last post my computer said something about the forum being down.

I refreshed and I think that causd the double post.

Is the forum having troubles or is it my computer? Although it doesn’t say there is a connection problem.

 

[schaick]

Sorry for the double post- no that wasn’t the fault of my grandson this time.

Just a couple of days ago and just after I submitted this last post my computer said something about the forum being down.

I refreshed and I think that causd the double post.

Is the forum having troubles or is it my computer? Although it doesn’t say there is a connection problem.

ok just happened again it says:

Database error
The Catholic Answers Forums database has encountered a problem.

---

Please try the following:
Load the page again by clicking the Refresh button in your web browser.
Open the forums.catholic-questions.org home page, then try to open another page.
Click the Back button to try another link.

The forums.catholic-questions.org forum technical staff have been notified of the error, though you may contact them if the problem persists.

We apologise for any inconvenience.

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry for the double post- no that wasn’t the fault of my grandson this time.

Just a couple of days ago and just after I submitted this last post my computer said something about the forum being down.

I refreshed and I think that causd the double post.

Is the forum having troubles or is it my computer? Although it doesn’t say there is a connection problem.

ok just happened again it says:

Database error
The Catholic Answers Forums database has encountered a problem.

---

Please try the following:
Load the page again by clicking the Refresh button in your web browser.
Open the forums.catholic-questions.org home page, then try to open another page.
Click the Back button to try another link.

The forums.catholic-questions.org forum technical staff have been notified of the error, though you may contact them if the problem persists.

We apologise for any inconvenience.

Yes, they were having problems.

This is a very costly venture.

Which is why, IMHO, one ought to consider making even a small donation to keep things running smoothly. It seems to be the right thing to do.

Just my :twocents:

 

[PRmerger]

Does this make sense? Bear with me at my Sunday School, Church and children’s Church grade school we learn Bible Stories not about dogmas and doctrines.

Dogma and doctrines are what you profess, whether you acknowledge it or not.

When you say that the Bible is the word of God, that’s a doctrine.

When you say that Jesus died for our sins, that’s a doctrine.

When you say that God loves you, that’s a doctrine.

 

[PRmerger]

Does this make sense? Bear with me at my Sunday School, Church and children’s Church grade school we learn Bible Stories not about dogmas and doctrines.

There are no newly developed dogmas and doctrines about Jesus

That is a belief that you’ve never read in the Bible. That is, it’s a man-made tradition that you’ve bought from hearing it from someone else, but it’s not something you’ve read in the pages of Scripture.

Doctrine does indeed develop.

all concepts/knowledge about Jesus was put into Scripture

 

[Janet1983]

Does this make sense? Bear with me at my Sunday School, Church and children’s Church grade school we learn Bible Stories not about dogmas and doctrines.

My dear friend,

The things that you (and I) learn at Sunday School are the truth we find in the Bible. We may not usually call it a doctrine, but that is what it definitely is.

Here is an example that I just picked out:
At the Baptist College of Florida the Christian Counseling major for Bachelor includes the following courses:
Christian Doctrine I
Christian Doctrine II
Doctrine of Creation

In this case a doctrine is essentially a Christian teaching which we derive from the Bible. To give an example I would say that the incarnation is a basic doctrine of Christianity.

The word “doctrine” may not be a word we use regularly, but it is still a good description of the teachings we regard as essential.

 

[PRmerger]

There is no evidence from the apostles/disciples about the Mary Dogmas because it is not a tradition, but a developed dogmas! Like the book bag story - a teaching that after a few hundred years became a tradition.

It seems that you missed the point of my “book bag story”.

<sigh!>

It has been the constant teaching in my house that all school supplies must be put away.

The teaching developed when the need for backpacks arose.

The kids tried to use the same reasoning you did.

Of course, we’re too smart for them. We knew (and the kids knew, too, despite their incredulous looks) that the teaching had not changed.

 

[KathleenGee]

Schaick…

Do you believe in any of the Apostles Creed? They are a series of doctrines…

 

[PRmerger]

The Disciples were able to discern that Jesus was the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy simply by hearing Jesus message. Actually they strayed from their “Church” to follow Jesus, learn and hear HIS message.

Exactly! That’s called Sacred Tradition!

I think, schaick, the content in the above exchange cannot be minimized.

You have stated rather eloquently the CC’s teaching on Sacred Tradition.

Clearly, God’s Word was SPOKEN and HEARD first. Later it was WRITTEN and READ.

 

[Janet1983]

Clearly, God’s Word was SPOKEN and HEARD first. Later it was WRITTEN and READ.

And they were very careful to hand down everything and I do believe that God did assure its correctness and completeness.
That is why we have everything we need in the Bible which is God’s Word.

 

[PRmerger]

And they were very careful to hand down everything and I do believe that God did assure its correctness and completeness.

Then, Janet, you do believe in Sacred Tradition. You do believe in an infallible church that “organized” this Oral Teaching to assure its correctness and completeness.

Now, the question is, why do you believe that this Sacred Tradition ended with the completion of the canon? There is nothing in the Scriptures which state this.

That is why we have everything we need in the Bible which is God’s Word.

This, also is a man-made tradition; you have heard it from your pastor, who heard it from his pastor perhaps…but none of you read it anywhere in the words of Sacred Scripture.

 

[ERose]

And they were very careful to hand down everything and I do believe that God did assure its correctness and completeness.
That is why we have everything we need in the Bible which is God’s Word.

You may believe that you believe this but you truly do not. Why? Because there are developed protestant/evangelical doctrines that are not found in the Bible.

1. The Fullness of Christian Truth is in the Bible is not in the Bible
2. Saved by Faith Alone is not in the Bible
3. The Books that should make up the Bible is not in the Bible
4. Personal Interpretation of Scripture is not in the Bible

This list can go on and on depending the denomination. The facts are you believe things that are not found in the Bible and as such these are parts of your church’s sacred tradition. You don’t call it tradition but they are traditional beliefs that you take for granted that are not found in the Bible.

Also you need to research the history of the Bible from a relatively unbias source. You would learn that the Apostles and their direct disciples wrote the books and letters in the NT but they did not not determine to the Church that these writings were sacred nor did they get together as a group and say that it is these 27 documents. This was done by their successors more than 200 years after the writers of the NT were martyred or died. In other words, you accept all the books in your Bible because your church has told you that these are the sacred books of God, but you do not understand that the reason why your church along with all the Protestant/Evangelical churches accept the NT canon is because the Catholic church first outlined what the NT canon is to be. So you can say that you actually believe some of the Catholic church’s Sacred Tradition already.

 

[ERose]

I do not think that we should be weary of saying that Christian Doctrine has developed since the Apostles. Why? Because it had to. If you went back in time and asked one of the Apostles what is the Holy Trinity, he would most probably start scratching his head and say he doesn’t know. But if you asked him is Jesus God, he would say yes; is the Father and Jesus the same person, he would say no; is Jesus and the Father equal in divinity, he would say of course; etc. These things they knew. But it wasn’t until latter that these truths became contested by heretics that the Church had to start defining these Doctrines.

Doctrines are a response to heresy for the most part and that is the reason why you see Doctrines being defined much latter than the Apostolic era because they were not being contested during that time.

Concerning Marian doctrines, they are related to Jesus and are normally a response to some heresy against Jesus. For example the doctrine that Mary is the Mother of God is a response to attacks concerning Jesus’ Incarnation. It was not defined as such to raise Mary’s role up in the church but rather to emphasize a truth or doctrine of Jesus.

 

[Janet1983]

Then, Janet, you do believe in Sacred Tradition. You do believe in an infallible church that “organized” this Oral Teaching to assure its correctness and completeness.

I do believe that what we have is in the Bible is complete and good.

 

[PRmerger]

I do believe that what we have is in the Bible is complete and good.

Good, yes?

Complete, no.

You have succumbed to a man-made tradition, Janet. You believe it because you were told this by someone you trust, but you’ve not read it in any page of the bible.

 

[schaick]

lol!! I am a trinitarian, NIcene Creed, Real Presence in the Eucharist, evangelical Christian.

Maybe I need to add some color to my posts like elvisman!!

The Doctrines and Dogmas about Jesus are all supported by Scripture- GOD’s Word whether oral first then written

There is evidence the disciples believed this -either they themselves or their students recorded these infallible facts for us in Scripture.

It is not the case with the Dogmas about Mary. We know she was a virgin before and with conception of Jesus. Her remaining perpetually virgin is not, her immaculate conception is not, her assumption is not. We have no proof the disciples believed these things so they are said to have developed later hundreds of years later.

I have asked repeatedly if the Mary Dogmas had to be believed for your salvation. I found the answer- yes:

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:JzKV1TwUAagJ:geneva.rutgers.edu/src/faq/infallibility.txt+list+of+infallible+teachings+of+the+popes&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Dogmas are not open to dispute as such. They are final. Any disputes with Dogma result in heresy. Heresy can lead to excommunication. Doctrines on the other hand can be more slippery fish to get hold of sometimes and to explain what’s happening requires some more history.

I don’t but believe in the Mary Dogmas for reasons I have stated elsewhere. BUT if for some reason a Christian needs to believe in the Mary Dogmas to be closer to Jesus:

Romans 14
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.

What I am trying to find out-

What Doctrines/Dogmas about Jesus does the Catholic Church hold that are not supported by Scripture?

** NO ONE has been able to show me so I say all concepts/knowledge about Jesus was put into Scripture ** and so considered developed.

 

[Splinker]

Does this make sense? Bear with me at my Sunday School, Church and children’s Church grade school we learn Bible Stories not about dogmas and doctrines.

**There are no newly developed dogmas and doctrines about Jesus all concepts/knowledge about Jesus was put into Scripture **but not all knowledge of Mary, Popes and their duties, the heirarchy of the Catholic Church, Joseph, etc. was in Scripture so it was developed.

It is not tradition because of the gaps - was not passed down directly from one generation to another- it is a developed teaching.

A teaching trying to explain something GOD did not deem necessary to put in HIS Word because it did not deal with the Gospel message of Jesus directly and our salvation.

There is no evidence from the apostles/disciples about the Mary Dogmas because it is not a tradition, but a developed dogmas! Like the book bag story - a teaching that after a few hundred years became a tradition.

I had realized on an earlier thread-What is the Sacred Traditions of the Catholic Church all revolve around the authority of the Catholic Church-passng on of keys, the authority to develop new dogmas and doctrines, etc.

Which is all very intersting because there was really no need to develop the immaculate conception of Mary. In Judaism, it is from the father that sinful nature is passed and jewishness is from the mother.

Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15
21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Where did you come up with the idea that in Judaism, sinfullness is passed from the the father? I never heard anything like that before.

 

[schaick]

Good, yes?

Complete, no.

You have succumbed to a man-made tradition, Janet. You believe it because you were told this by someone you trust, but you’ve not read it in any page of the bible.

** Timothy 3**
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works

blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1822&t=KJV

throughly furnished 1822

1. to complete, finish

a) to furnish perfectly

b) to finish, accomplish, (as it were, to render the days complete)