Devil cannot expel a demon - Difficulty with this Scripture Passage

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I’m sorry that I don’t have time to look up the precise passage but this has always bothered me.
Jesus is accused of expelling demons with the help of the devil (bealzabub). Jesus responds that the devil cannot expell the devil - A house divided cannot stand etc.

The problem I have is this, - Since the Devil is the Father of Lies and deceit, why can’t the devil choose to send a demon into someone then enter someone else for the purpose of “expelling” the first demon. by this ploy the devil, the prince of dirty dealing, would “prove” to many he is of “God” and by this trick be able to mislead many.

Any help on this?

Peace
James
 
Well, why would a selfish demon want to cooperate with the Devil once it already has control over a human?

I do see your point about the Devil being cunning, but IMO Satan is always working with a selfish army of demons that won’t give anything they really enjoy (like control over a human) to him. Only a loving and selfless being would do that. But then again, I suppose Satan does know how to trick his own kind. Hmmm.

Interesting thought! You’ve got me thinking!
Pax!
 
I think the accusers of Jesus are trying to downplay his miracles. Jesus was performing many healings, wonders, and miracles that were getting the people interested. Of course if the power to perform these miracles came from a good source, then the pharisees would have some problems on their hands.

Instead they claim that he is doing all of this through evil means. Jesus response is pretty much saying “why would something evil do good?”. I’m not exactly sure he’s saying that demons can’t cast out other demons to ‘trick’ us into thinking someone is holy. But many of the people he healed turned around and praised God. So really I think he was saying “If demons are trying to bring people to hell, why would they give me the power to perform a miracle that results in people praising God?”

So I think Satan as the father of lies could deceive us by ‘casting out demons’. But I don’t think he’d want the end result that people would turn around and praise God.
 
praise_Jesus said:
I think the accusers of Jesus are trying to downplay his miracles. Jesus was performing many healings, wonders, and miracles that were getting the people interested. Of course if the power to perform these miracles came from a good source, then the pharisees would have some problems on their hands.

Instead they claim that he is doing all of this through evil means. Jesus response is pretty much saying “why would something evil do good?”. I’m not exactly sure he’s saying that demons can’t cast out other demons to ‘trick’ us into thinking someone is holy. But many of the people he healed turned around and praised God. So really I think he was saying “If demons are trying to bring people to hell, why would they give me the power to perform a miracle that results in people praising God?”

So I think Satan as the father of lies could deceive us by ‘casting out demons’. But I don’t think he’d want the end result that people would turn around and praise God.
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No the devil would not want people to Praise God, assuming they are praising God Properly the proper God. However, if the Devil acting in some person, by this ploy, gains many Followers (whom Jesus had) that are only following for the miracles and other “selfish” reasons (remember even the Apostles argued over who was most important) were able then to mislead these souls into sinful ways, would he not gain his objective of stealing souls.
I think of the “Jim Jones” of the world in this. Here was a man who was charismatic, had many followers and led them to destruction. Did God posses Jim Jones who preached from the Bible, or did Satan? Were his followers praising God? Yet did they sin when they committed suicide?

Also we can see that Satan can use Scripture to trip us up. In the temptation in the Desert Jesus uses Scripture first, then the Devil uses Scripture back at Jesus to trip him up. Jesus, of course sees through it, but the fact remains that the Devil used “Sacred Words” to try and trip up Jesus.

Please know that I am not having my faith shaken by this, but am trying to understand better.

peace
James
 
JRKH said:
I’m sorry that I don’t have time to look up the precise passage but this has always bothered me.
Jesus is accused of expelling demons with the help of the devil (bealzabub). Jesus responds that the devil cannot expell the devil - A house divided cannot stand etc.

The problem I have is this, - Since the Devil is the Father of Lies and deceit, why can’t the devil choose to send a demon into someone then enter someone else for the purpose of “expelling” the first demon. by this ploy the devil, the prince of dirty dealing, would “prove” to many he is of “God” and by this trick be able to mislead many.

Any help on this?

Peace
James
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Of course, satan loves to decieve people and by making out that his forces are of God so that every one will believe him and there fore follow too. Of course he would do this. He can and does do many things like this. How many people have tried to convince you that they are good just so that by having your trust they can do greater evil later.
I think your theory is right (christ is genuine) but definately, a demon can do this.
 
Zundrah said:
Of course, satan loves to decieve people and by making out that his forces are of God so that every one will believe him and there fore follow too. Of course he would do this. He can and does do many things like this. How many people have tried to convince you that they are good just so that by having your trust they can do greater evil later.
I think your theory is right (christ is genuine) but definately, a demon can do this.
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I looked up the passage:

Mt 12:
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.” 25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

If, as you say above, a demon can do this, then how could Jesus say what He did?

Peace
James
 
This confuses me, too. The Gospel reading yesterday contained Matt 7:22-23 and I don’t understand how people could drive out demons and yet be called ‘evil ones.’
KC
 
kimbaichan said:
This confuses me, too. The Gospel reading yesterday contained Matt 7:22-23 and I don’t understand how people could drive out demons and yet be called ‘evil ones.’
KC
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For Clarity, the verses are these:
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
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I guess one thing that I notice here is that Jesus does not say they actually did cast our demons, but rather that these people claim to have cast them out, and I assume that they actually believe that they cast out demons. These people are making these claims, and believing them, but they have not been “Doing the Will of My Father”, in their own lives.

Thanks for posting this. It certainly gives us more to work with.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
I looked up the passage:

Mt 12:
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.” 25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

If, as you say above, a demon can do this, then how could Jesus say what He did?

Peace
James
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Demons can jump out of people and jump into the next, satan does not need to be involved it that action.
 
JRKH said:
I’m sorry that I don’t have time to look up the precise passage but this has always bothered me.
Jesus is accused of expelling demons with the help of the devil (bealzabub). Jesus responds that the devil cannot expell the devil - A house divided cannot stand etc.

The problem I have is this, - Since the Devil is the Father of Lies and deceit, why can’t the devil choose to send a demon into someone then enter someone else for the purpose of “expelling” the first demon. by this ploy the devil, the prince of dirty dealing, would “prove” to many he is of “God” and by this trick be able to mislead many.

Any help on this?

Peace
James
Click to expand...
Neither God nor the evil one can act against their nature. God wills only good for us. The evil one wills only destruction. Once a demon is sent into someone, its purpose is destruction and there it will remain, perhaps even attracting other demons as well (i.e. Mary Magdalene and the Gerasene demoniac). To cast a demon out is to cause good, and that is against the evil one’s nature - thus he is incapable of doing it. Only good can cast a demon out, since good and evil are diametrically opposed to one another. For the evil one to cast his own out, is contrary to his nature. He only enters souls, he does not leave - except forcibly by being cast out by the force of good, which is God alone. This help?
 
JRKH said:
Interesting link but there is a lot there.
Can you narrow it down a bit?

Peace
James
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Post # 40 -esp. section # 3 ; the above post also gives similar interpretation .

Thank you too ; it has been a bit of a puzzler for me too and your post reminded me to google the phrase 🙂

God Bless !
 
kimbaichan said:
This confuses me, too. The Gospel reading yesterday contained Matt 7:22-23 and I don’t understand how people could drive out demons and yet be called ‘evil ones.’
KC
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There is nothing that says that they can’t be systematic. They can connive devious plans to meet there ends and not necessarily on one attempt, but to start into action a chain of events.

Demons have hierarchy’s as well. The higher angels in heaven share their knowledge with the lessor angels providing them what God feels is necessary. In a negative way the higher demons overpower the lower demons and withhold jealously their knowledge. So it is that charity and love are the cause of cooperation in heaven, it is hate and force that causes cooperation in hell. The lower demons can be unhappily compelled to do satan’s bidding. (Summa)

Andy
 
po18guy said:
Neither God nor the evil one can act against their nature. God wills only good for us. The evil one wills only destruction. Once a demon is sent into someone, its purpose is destruction and there it will remain, perhaps even attracting other demons as well (i.e. Mary Magdalene and the Gerasene demoniac). To cast a demon out is to cause good, and that is against the evil one’s nature - thus he is incapable of doing it. Only good can cast a demon out, since good and evil are diametrically opposed to one another. For the evil one to cast his own out, is contrary to his nature. He only enters souls, he does not leave - except forcibly by being cast out by the force of good, which is God alone. This help?
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Thank you. Yes it does help. I can understand the idea of Satan not being able to act against his nature. Although I am still not sure how this would fit with the idea of Satan being the “father of lies and deceit”. I’ll have to work on that one.

This does however reinforce something that I have long believed about Our Lady’s visit at Fatima. For those who seek proof, not only of the vision but of the source of the vision.
The Lady of the vision taught these small children prayers. Prayers asking Jesus to save souls from the fires of hell and to lead souls to heaven. No demon could ever utter such words or teach such a prayer. So, for me, the vision and it’ssource of the vision is confirmed by two simple facts. 1) The willingness of the children to stand up to threats and jail rather than recant, and 2) The prayers taught by the Lady.

Peace
James
 
AndyF said:
There is nothing that says that they can’t be systematic. They can connive devious plans to meet there ends and not necessarily on one attempt, but to start into action a chain of events.

Demons have hierarchy’s as well. The higher angels in heaven share their knowledge with the lessor angels providing them what God feels is necessary. In a negative way the higher demons overpower the lower demons and withhold jealously their knowledge. So it is that charity and love are the cause of cooperation in heaven, it is hate and force that causes cooperation in hell. The lower demons can be unhappily compelled to do satan’s bidding. (Summa)

Andy
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So this sounds as though a lower demon could be forced by Satan to leave a body if satan so desired it for the achieving of some “devious plan” of his own.
So then aren’t we back to Satan “could” drive out Satan?

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Thank you. Yes it does help. I can understand the idea of Satan not being able to act against his nature. Although I am still not sure how this would fit with the idea of Satan being the “father of lies and deceit”. I’ll have to work on that one.
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James, consider this: Who uttered the very first lie in scripture? Who caused the fall of mankind to occur by lying to Eve? Who did this because he rejected all that is good and true by rebelling against God? He is the father of lies since all lies, deceit and corruption have their genesis in him.

Christ’s peace.
 
JRKH said:
So this sounds as though a lower demon could be forced by Satan to leave a body if satan so desired it for the achieving of some “devious plan” of his own.
So then aren’t we back to Satan “could” drive out Satan?

Peace
James
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👍

Good observation James, was wondering who would notice.!

I try to present accurate information from reputable sources. In this case perhaps Aquinas’s opinion is categorized (I hope) as either Sententia Ad Fidem Pertinens, or
Sententia Fidei Proxima. It may even be of higher official inspiration.

Not theologically shattering I would say, but it is reasonable to presume their would be an established authoritative structure of sorts and that in my opinion would require a control.

Andy
 
Could this passaage also not be an indirect reference by our Lord to the nature of the unity in the Mystical Body of The Church as well as even of The Trinity …

even the fallen angels were created by the Lord of unity …and they still possibly retain some such traits …even if from fear/envy etc -and just for the power , as depicted in the nature of the ever present fights and curses and such that are hall marks of pagan gods …

The Mystical Body , as represented by the unity of the Church triumphant in heaven , Church Militant and Churh suffering ( souls in purgatory and purification ) under the glorious ongoing and dynamic unity in the Trinty , where what is attributed to One is also for The Other Two Persons …Perfect ongoing unity …even in the midst of sufferings …a Father who chooses to be with His children, in their utter misery , to raise them up , even if much had to be given up , for a time , to do so …

similarly, in theBody , as St.Paul teaches, when one suffers , all do …no one is against the other …and all choose to love and trust , in freedom … bear each other’s burdens , share the so called merits of good deeds …

Some such ‘unity’ (? of fear ) might exist in the fallen angel kingdom too … do we not see evidence of such even in earthly powers set up and fueled by such …even the expelled demon , going after the seven , in counter imitation of the children of The Kingdom , possibly, just to make the person more fearful of all that is good and true …to leave him in a worse shape …

Yet, The Holy Spirit is Powerful …as long as we do not resist His touch …the whispers …His Breath …

May the pure and Sacred Hearts of our Lord and Bl.Mother , the loving power of all her sufferings , in union with our Lord’s , bring violence to the evil kingdom, to set the children free from the rule of fear …so that they can turn whole heartedly to The Father , to be of one heart with all His children …

Peace !
 
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