Devil knows Christians are one: Pope Francis

[Louie1983]

I’m just tired. I want to believe you and PietroPaolo. But the Holy Father himself saying things like this, the secret meeting of the German and French bishops to hijack the Synod, the failure of the bishops of Ireland all in one week really has me down.

I know how you feel, Felt the same this week.

It is a battle, Satan looks to make us weak and angry so that we may turn from God.

However, remember Our Lord’s words: “Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”.

Arm yourself with the sacraments, with the Rosary, It helps me immensely.

And remember Our lady Of Fatima’s words “Pray for the Holy Father…”

 

[Sy_Noe]

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. **Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”**

Right. I didn’t see one thing even remotely wrong with what Pope Francis said as it pertains to Catholic teaching and certainly not in any way that his words could be construed as heretical. The CC teaches there are Christians not in communion with Rome. Includes on the list even those considered by some to be more liberal including Lutherans who are part of the ELCA, Episcopalians, members of the United Church of Christ, Presbyterians including PCUSA, and many.many others of various Christian stripes. The CC believes it has the fullness of truth but also teaches these other Christians have some truth. And we are as Christians afterall united in the one most important of all Who breaks down walls: Christ as Lord and Savior. So the Pope was right on. Despite differences, more may unite than divides us. Certainly on the most important One of all. So there is a unity.

 

[ishii]

Pope Francis likes to speak to us as he spoke to the poor when he was Bishop (this is my guess). He relies on the Holy Spirit to give him what he needs to say. This is what we were told in the NT, to do. He wants to be really close to us.*** He doesn’t want the media to get in the way of this openness (again, my guess) to the Holy Spirit***. And so it is down to us to be able to discern between what he is really saying to us from what the media and those with agendas would like him to be saying or not saying.

The media distorts and manipulates quotes from this Pope like they never did with Benedict or JP 2. It seems like he plays right into their hands and the result is more confusion.

Ishii

 

[friardchips]

The media distorts and manipulates quotes from this Pope like they never did with Benedict or JP 2. It seems like he plays right into their hands and the result is more confusion.

Ishii

I am not sure about this. We live in wildly different times with different circumstances. If other Popes had been Pope in these times then they would have had problems, not necessarily all the same ones, but generally speaking, we have the Popes that fit our times. Benedict was given a hard time before he visited the U.K. Things died down after that because the West witnessed first-hand what a humble man he is. Pope Francis has to put up with a lot. And if he plans everything all the time with meticulous attention to detail it is not also necessarily going to serve him any better.

So what can he do? He gets on with what he has to do, which is not worrying about the media hounds and their atheist agendas; instead, he speaks from the heart as a man truly guided in spirit, for his people. In this way, he is very much like St. Pope JPII, in that he is a man of the people, but the difference with him, is he is also sorting out loads of issues within the Church too, so he is having to be very tough. Which he is.

The alternative, is for him to worry about the media and what they’re going to say, allowing politics to enter into his religion. I would rather that this kind of behaviour was left to politicians, because politics is what they do, whereas a Pope is there to keep people, the Church, on track, through the times of their day, in keeping with Gospel values. ANd this is hard to do. I think.

For me, this is what I want. He challenges me. I sometimes find it hard to keep up but this again is what I want. He is there not to make us feel cosy and warm, but to live out some kind of Christian life, for the Church, amongst all the orks that seek to pick us off with their ultra-modernism. He is always right in his words. He is not progressive or wishy-washy, he is to the point and radical in living witness to the Gospel. Why should he have to worry about the evil one’s arrows. He does what he does and says what he says. And says it without the need for many fancy words.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Right. I didn’t see one thing even remotely wrong with what Pope Francis said as it pertains to Catholic teaching and certainly not in any way that his words could be construed as heretical.

Then why did the Holy Father say that it could be? I’m not challenging you, I’m just sincerely asking.

Certainly, many traditional minded Catholics have been alarmed by his statement.

The CC teaches there are Christians not in communion with Rome. Includes on the list even those considered by some to be more liberal including Lutherans who are part of the ELCA, Episcopalians, members of the United Church of Christ, Presbyterians including PCUSA, and many.many others of various Christian stripes. The CC believes it has the fullness of truth but also teaches these other Christians have some truth. And we are as Christians afterall united in the one most important of all Who breaks down walls: Christ as Lord and Savior. So the Pope was right on. Despite differences, more may unite than divides us. Certainly on the most important One of all. So there is a unity.

But where does the CC teach that we are all “one” in the manner that the Holy Father describes? Unity can only be achieved when our Separated Brethren return to full communion with Rome. For us to be “one” we must all visibly be part of the Church which He purchased with His Blood. And that means that we MUST be in communion with the Pope, the visible head.

I leave here a quote from Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Mortalium animos for you to ponder:

“It is absurd and ridiculous to say that the Mystical Body can be formed out of separated and disjunct members…It is to depart from divine truth to imagine that a Church which one can neither see nor touch, which would be nothing more than spiritual in which numerous Christian communities would be united by an invisible bond, even though they are divided in faith.”

-Pope Pius IX, 1928 Mortalium animos

 

[R_H_Benson]

I meant Pope Pius XI in the above post.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Right. I didn’t see one thing even remotely wrong with what Pope Francis said as it pertains to Catholic teaching and certainly not in any way that his words could be construed as heretical. The CC teaches there are Christians not in communion with Rome. Includes on the list even those considered by some to be more liberal including Lutherans who are part of the ELCA, Episcopalians, members of the United Church of Christ, Presbyterians including PCUSA, and many.many others of various Christian stripes. The CC believes it has the fullness of truth but also teaches these other Christians have some truth. And we are as Christians afterall united in the one most important of all Who breaks down walls: Christ as Lord and Savior. So the Pope was right on. Despite differences, more may unite than divides us. Certainly on the most important One of all. So there is a unity.

Yes, I think “imperfect communion” captures it perfectly. It is important to note the many obvious differences between Catholics and a wide variety of Protestant denominations, same but much less so with the Orthodox Churches. But we need to understand that those who are baptized in the name of Christ (little hiccup with the Mormons here I believe) and accept the truth of the revelation of the Gospel are in a communion of sorts with the Catholic Church. They are our brethren, part of the body of Christ. The fractured state of the Church should cause us pain and sorrow, not move us to bare fangs to exclude others. Frankly I have more in common with some Protestants than some Catholics…

 

[NovusFidem]

But where does the CC teach that we are all “one” in the manner that the Holy Father describes? Unity can only be achieved when our Separated Brethren return to full communion with Rome. For us to be “one” we must all visibly be part of the Church which He purchased with His Blood. And that means that we MUST be in communion with the Pope, the visible head.

I think the way Pope Francis meant is that we are all children of God, and because of that, the Devil persecutes all. And you don’t need the CC to know that this is true, as God created everyone out there, and the Devil wants to hurt God through us.

The CC says it here:

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

We are one as part of Creation. We are one as children of God. We all have the same calling, Catholics or not. But we also have free will (and chronic stupidity), which explains why so many deviated from the right path, or outright denied God. We may not have a unity in Faith, but we are One in many other aspects, and because of that we are called to love all of them, despite our differences. Even the worst of sinners (murderers, rapists, psychopaths) are our brothers, have the same Creator, and the same calling to love; they just chose not to…

 

[Sy_Noe]

The media distorts and manipulates quotes from this Pope like they never did with Benedict or JP 2. It seems like he plays right into their hands and the result is more confusion.

Ishii

Ishii, I’m aware from our previous discussions that you sometimes like to blame the big, bad mainstream “liberal” media. But the “MLM” wasn’t posting on this thread earlier when someone spoke of “the Holy Father’s admission of heresy”. It’s not just the media.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Then why did the Holy Father say that it could be? I’m not challenging you, I’m just sincerely asking.

Certainly, many traditional minded Catholics have been alarmed by his statement.

But where does the CC teach that we are all “one” in the manner that the Holy Father describes? Unity can only be achieved when our Separated Brethren return to full communion with Rome. For us to be “one” we must all visibly be part of the Church which He purchased with His Blood. And that means that we MUST be in communion with the Pope, the visible head.

I leave here a quote from Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Mortalium animos for you to ponder:

Maybe because besides the media, he realized the traditional minded Catholics who you say are alarmed might misconstrue his statement? The only manner I saw the Holy Father speaking in was one where Catholics and other Christians do indeed share a type of unity. The CCC was already presented by another poster. I don’t have brothers in my family but my sisters and I are still united by family. We share the same parents. Even though we don’t necessarily agree on everything and have differences. Same with Catholics and other Christians. We share a faith, a unity if you will, in confessing Jesus Christ Lord and Savior. And to that I say Amen!

 

[KEP1983]

There is only one Church and One Baptism. People seem to forget that Protestants are actually joined to the Church through baptism, too.

CCC 1213: " Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission:"

Protestants are, technically speaking, merely Catholics in schism. They are joined to the Church, though imperfectly and not fully.

 

[R_H_Benson]

There is only one Church and One Baptism. People seem to forget that Protestants are actually joined to the Church through baptism, too.

CCC 1213: " Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission:"

Protestants are, technically speaking, merely Catholics in schism. They are joined to the Church, though imperfectly and not fully.

There is no such thing as “mere schism”. All schism is grave.

 

[KEP1983]

There is no such thing as “mere schism”. All schism is grave.

I agree. But a Catholic in schism is different than, say, a Buddhist or a Hindu. The Catholic in schism is still part of the Church, but is objectively in a state of sin.

 

[outremer]

I wouldn’t take it that way at all. The Pope is merely pointing to an obvious fact, those who seek to destroy Christianity don’t care whether individual Christians are part of the True Church or are part of heretical or schismatic sects. In that sense we are “all one.” Reading Francis in context (including in the context of Church teaching) and with charity is recommended.

I love Pope Francis; his humility and loving demeanor inspire me beyond measure. The statement he made is just rather fitting with previous statements over the past couple of years.

I say, in the spirit of this goodly and Godly pope, that apologetics should cease. We are all Christians, plain and simple.

 

[Pulvis]

I love Pope Francis; his humility and loving demeanor inspire me beyond measure. The statement he made is just rather fitting with previous statements over the past couple of years.

I say, in the spirit of this goodly and Godly pope, that apologetics should cease. We are all Christians, plain and simple.

Unfortunately, that goes against the perinial teachings of Popes, Councils and Saints from the beginning of the Church up to 1965. After reading the documents of V-II, i still cannot rectify the quantum leap that was made between what was held as truth for 1965 years, to what we are hearing today. Either the Catholic Church is the one true Church, established by Christ, with all fullness and truth, or the masons are correct in that all faiths lead to enlightenment. For that heretical ideology is what i am hearing from parish priests.

 

[FollowChrist34]

The devil knows Christians are one, says Pope Francis

Thoughts? I take it this means our faith is essentially equal to those that abandoned Catholicism in previous centuries?

Just adding a thought - the devil does indeed know that his enemy is the Christian. But perhaps it would behoove us to spend some time in prayer contemplating how effectively and smoothly he regularly infiltrates each and every denomination. His influence is far, wide and very strong, as it has been from the beginning.

 

[TEPO]

Unfortunately, that goes against the perinial teachings of Popes, Councils and Saints from the beginning of the Church up to 1965. After reading the documents of V-II, i still cannot rectify the quantum leap that was made between what was held as truth for 1965 years, to what we are hearing today. Either the Catholic Church is the one true Church, established by Christ, with all fullness and truth, or the masons are correct in that all faiths lead to enlightenment. For that heretical ideology is what i am hearing from parish priests.

All faiths do not lead to enlightenment. But the Holy Spirit does -and by enlightenment I mean holiness.

The Holy Spirit was influencing thought prior to Christianity especially during Zoroaster days. The Holy Spirit was present during the Creative Act, of life itself.

…The Church may be the clearest path to guide people towards God, but that’s not to say it’s Gods only method of guidance. It never has been.

 

[JackVk]

Unfortunately, that goes against the perinial teachings of Popes, Councils and Saints from the beginning of the Church up to 1965. After reading the documents of V-II, i still cannot rectify the quantum leap that was made between what was held as truth for 1965 years, to what we are hearing today. Either the Catholic Church is the one true Church, established by Christ, with all fullness and truth, or the masons are correct in that all faiths lead to enlightenment. For that heretical ideology is what i am hearing from parish priests.

Even Blessed Pope Pius IX said that it is not out of the realm of possibility for those who, through no fault of their own, have never heard of the Catholic faith, to be saved thanks to God’s goodness and clemency.

I think it stands to reason that this could also include those who have heard of Catholicism but have never found a convincing reason that they should convert to Catholicism. Correct me if I’m wrong on that?

 

[R_H_Benson]

All faiths do not lead to enlightenment. But the Holy Spirit does -and by enlightenment I mean holiness.

The Holy Spirit was influencing thought prior to Christianity especially during Zoroaster days. The Holy Spirit was present during the Creative Act, of life itself.

…The Church may be the clearest path to guide people towards God, but that’s not to say it’s Gods only method of guidance. It never has been.

The Holy Spirit leads souls to the Roman Catholic Church. To believe anything else is heresy.

 

[FollowChrist34]

All faiths do not lead to enlightenment. But the Holy Spirit does -and by enlightenment I mean holiness.

The Holy Spirit was influencing thought prior to Christianity especially during Zoroaster days. The Holy Spirit was present during the Creative Act, of life itself.

…The Church may be the clearest path to guide people towards God, but that’s not to say it’s Gods only method of guidance. It never has been.

Amen.

To lose charity is to descend into darkness - and to reject the Holy Spirit.