Devotion to Mary is it ever "to much"

[De_Montfort]

In regards to the bolded comment above…

Has any Catholic on this thread said that Mary should be rejected???
I have seen nothing of the sort in any of the posts I’ve read - though admittedly I have not read them all…

I’m confused.

Peace
James

I wasn’t pointing the finger at anyone, I meant people in general think this is Christ rejecting His Mother, which is not the case at all.

Yes Tim you did awesome I have copied it, and will use it down the road for those who question that Scripture!
IConstantineTG:

will have to disagree with Sister Faustina. There are people who take devotion too extreme that it crosses the line onto worship. I know we are always on the defensive when Protestants accuse us of Marian worship, but I’ve seen cases when even myself I can’t tell if its just adoration and veneration and not worship.

St. Faustina was talking about honor, not worship. If anyone worships something besides God that is heresy I would never deny that.

But Marian devotion in it’s true form, can not harm anyone. We will never love her or honor her to the degree her Son has.

It seems that some think a great love of Mary deprives Christ of love. But the bond between them cannot be broken, and since she gives EVERTHING to Christ, He is never deprived of anything. All Marian devotion leads to union with Christ.

 

[ConstantineTG]

St. Faustina was talking about honor, not worship. If anyone worships something besides God that is heresy I would never deny that.

But Marian devotion in it’s true form, can not harm anyone. We will never love her or honor her to the degree her Son has.

It seems that some think a great love of Mary deprives Christ of love. But the bond between them cannot be broken, and since she gives EVERTHING to Christ, He is never deprived of anything. All Marian devotion leads to union with Christ.

That is my point. People are crossing the line they shouldn’t cross. Honor and worship are not mutually exclusive. You can honor someone AND worship them. So its not like people who cross the border to worship cease to honor Mary. They still do, but that extreme honoring becomes worship.

You are right, in true Marian veneration we would never cross the line of worship. But that is the problem I am saying for some, that they do cross that line. Some people do actually see Mary as the one who saves us and brings salvation to us.

 

[De_Montfort]

That is my point. People are crossing the line they shouldn’t cross. Honor and worship are not mutually exclusive. You can honor someone AND worship them. So its not like people who cross the border to worship cease to honor Mary. They still do, but that extreme honoring becomes worship.

You are right, in true Marian veneration we would never cross the line of worship. But that is the problem I am saying for some, that they do cross that line. Some people do actually see Mary as the one who saves us and brings salvation to us.

I have never come across anyone who loves Mary and honors Her to the point that they reject Christ. If Mary reigns as Queen in a mans heart, Christ in turn reigns as King.
If you love Mary for who she truly is, you love Christ.

Christ does not reject His Mother and neither does The Holy Spirit reject his Spouse. Mary is active in our salvation. Everything is done through Her hands, such is the will of God.

“God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St.Bernadine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills.”
(St. Louis de Montfort)

Mary is invovled in our salvation, our salvation is Christ, and Mary intimately invovled with Christ at the Cross, shares in His Mission and that of her spouse the Holy Spririt to bring about union with Christ to all men. Such is the will of God to use Mary in all things!

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have never come across anyone who loves Mary and honors Her to the point that they reject Christ. If Mary reigns as Queen in a mans heart, Christ in turn reigns as King.
If you love Mary for who she truly is, you love Christ.

Christ does not reject His Mother and neither does The Holy Spirit reject his Spouse. Mary is active in our salvation. Everything is done through Her hands, such is the will of God.

“God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St.Bernadine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills.”
(St. Louis de Montfort)

Mary is invovled in our salvation, our salvation is Christ, and Mary intimately invovled with Christ at the Cross, shares in His Mission and that of her spouse the Holy Spririt to bring about union with Christ to all men. Such is the will of God to use Mary in all things!

I never said anything about rejecting Christ. Again, it is not mutually exclusive. Those who bring their devotion to the extreme do not see Mary as a rival or replacement for Christ, though admittedly it seems for them that Christ takes a bit of a background to Mary.

Its just proof that in anything we do, there is such a thing as “too much”. Even in loving God. Do you think these radicals do not love God? But their love of God has been unfocused and often derailed either by their own misconceptions or through the lies of others that they do something wrong thinking it is right.

 

[De_Montfort]

I never said anything about rejecting Christ. Again, it is not mutually exclusive. Those who bring their devotion to the extreme do not see Mary as a rival or replacement for Christ, though admittedly it seems for them that Christ takes a bit of a background to Mary.

Its just proof that in anything we do, there is such a thing as “too much”. Even in loving God. Do you think these radicals do not love God? But their love of God has been unfocused and often derailed either by their own misconceptions or through the lies of others that they do something wrong thinking it is right.

That is not true Marian devotion! Christ is at its center, and in loving Mary, we love Christ. The bond is unbreakable.

In fact it is Christ who loves Her in the soul that reaches union with Mary. It is a continuation of HIS devotion the Her. It follows that union with Mary is union with Christ, and as Paul said "it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me, so a person who has a great love for Mary it is Christ loving Her in them.

Devotion to Mary takes humility. A virtue which God loves dearly! We are giving everything to Her because she knows the secrets of God’s own heart and knows what is best to glorify Her Son.

Again I have never come across anyone who has true devotion to Mary, that has put Christ “in the backround” In truth it is a way of loving him perfectly, and tenderly!

 

[ConstantineTG]

That is not true Marian devotion! Christ is at it’s center, and in loving Mary, we love Christ. The bond is unbreakable.

In fact it is Christ who loves Her in the soul that reaches union with Mary. It is a continuation of HIS devotion the Her. It follows that union with Mary is union with Christ, and as Paul said "it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me, so a person who has a great love for Mary it is Christ loving Her in them.

Devotion to Mary takes humility. A virtue which God loves dearly! We are giving everything to Her because she knows the secrets of God’s own heart and knows what is best to glorify Her Son.

Again I have never come across anyone who has true devotion to Mary, that has put Christ “in the backround” In truth it is a way of loving him perfectly, and tenderly!

I am not arguing what is true Marian devotion. I am saying that there are people who are taking it to the extreme, which means they are not practicing what is true anymore.

 

[JRKH]

I have never come across anyone who loves Mary and honors Her to the point that they reject Christ. If Mary reigns as Queen in a mans heart, Christ in turn reigns as King.
If you love Mary for who she truly is, you love Christ.

Christ does not reject His Mother and neither does The Holy Spirit reject his Spouse. Mary is active in our salvation. Everything is done through Her hands, such is the will of God.

“God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St.Bernadine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills.”
(St. Louis de Montfort)

Mary is involved in our salvation, our salvation is Christ, and Mary intimately involved with Christ at the Cross, shares in His Mission and that of her spouse the Holy Spirit to bring about union with Christ to all men. Such is the will of God to use Mary in all things!

I am glad that you have not met anyone who rejected Christ in favor of Mary.
But - Trying to stay on point here…Let’s go back to the question in the title of this thread. “Devotion to Mary is it ever too much”
The question does not require that one reject Christ in order for Marion devotion to have gone too far.
As I mentioned earlier, I DID meet someone - right here on CAF - sometime back who had carried Marion devotion too far. He had not “rejected Christ”, but he HAD given Mary such importance in his own mind that he placed her in Jesus stead. His position was that we could not pray directly to God. That we must pray to and through Mary. Such belief is indeed - improper devotion to Mary.

So - As rare as it might be - the answer to the original question simply must be that yes devotion to Mary can be taken too far. It is up to all of us, as true and Loving Children of our Holy Mother to help each other avoid such pitfalls without going too far the opposite direction and not giving her the proper honor and devotion that she is due.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I am not arguing what is true Marian devotion. I am saying that there are people who are taking it to the extreme, which means they are not practicing what is true anymore.

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

I am not arguing what is true Marian devotion. I am saying that there are people who are taking it to the extreme, which means they are not practicing what is true anymore.

I am probably one of those extremists in yours and many people’s eyes.

I can assure you however, that whatever appearance my devotion may have, Christ is always at the center. The same is true for everyone else I know with the same devotion.

It only appears that Christ is not at the center. but he is. Please be assured of that.

-Tim-

 

[jwinch2]

One issue is that the average Catholic could probably tell you that they do not worship Mary but they instead venerate her. If you then asked that same average Catholic to define the word “venerate” they likely could not do so.

The second issue is one which has already been brought up, are people practicing what is true, or have they gone past truth into idolatry? No one that I have seen (certainly not me) is questions the truth of Marian devotion as taught by the Church. However, that does not mean that all people who become devoted to Mary stay within the truth.

Finally, as I noted above and someone else chimed in by saying it far more succinctly than I did, many saints were wrong about things and trying to use them as if they represent infallible sources is improper.

 

[JRKH]

On the subject of reading and following the advice of the saints, it is first necessary to follow “church teaching” on these matters. The best source for these things is the Catechism and other Magisterial documents.
Then one can look at the writings of the saints and compare these to the doctrines of the Church for a full and accurate picture.

Peace
James

 

[GraceDK]

Mary led me out of the wilderness of sin and to her Son. She helped me to repent and change my life. How can I be overly devoted to her?

Actually its the Holy Spirit that reveals Jesus Christ to us as who He is, and convicts us of sin in our heart. Thats his function, just like its also God’s function to forgive us from sin and save us. No human creature can do these things.

Also, you know Mary in light of Jesus, or you might not know her. In New Age eg. they have something like a worship of Mary, but its not really Mary of the Bible because these people do not submit to Christ but are often involved with idolatry.

 

[GraceDK]

That is my point. People are crossing the line they shouldn’t cross. Honor and worship are not mutually exclusive. You can honor someone AND worship them. So its not like people who cross the border to worship cease to honor Mary. They still do, but that extreme honoring becomes worship.

You are right, in true Marian veneration we would never cross the line of worship. But that is the problem I am saying for some, that they do cross that line. ** Some people do actually see Mary as the one who saves us and brings salvation to us**.

Indeed this is what I find too. Exemplified eg through this quote by
TimothyH:
“I belive Mary converts sinners by showering grace upon them when she sees fit, because it is her son’s will that sinners be converted, and she obeys her son. Any sinner who is converted as miraculously as I was should seriously consider that their conversion was because Mary decided that they would be converted and brought to a state of sanctifying grace”.

Here Mary is spoken of as the saviour, converter, source of grace in herself who decides whom to save. To me I cannot help but see it as description of a goddes. The godly attributes of God Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been given to a creature.
If people say that Timothy worships Mary, I would not know how to defend him… I don’t see what his definition of worship is, if its not giving a creature the attributes of the Lord.

 

[De_Montfort]

Indeed this is what I find too. Exemplified eg through this quote by
TimothyH:
“I belive Mary converts sinners by showering grace upon them when she sees fit, because it is her son’s will that sinners be converted, and she obeys her son. Any sinner who is converted as miraculously as I was should seriously consider that their conversion was because Mary decided that they would be converted and brought to a state of sanctifying grace”.

Here Mary is spoken of as the saviour, converter, source of grace in herself who decides whom to save. To me I cannot help but see it as description of a goddes. The godly attributes of God Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been given to a creature.
If people say that Timothy worships Mary, I would not know how to defend him… I don’t see what his definition of worship is, if its not giving a creature the attributes of the Lord.

Everything is done in union with Mary because God has willed it to be so. The Holy Spirit has not rejected His spouse Mary. Everything he does is through Her, all grace comes to us through Her hands. Mary is His inseperable Spouse, their union is so close that the have “one sole life” together. They have the same mission in their union of love!

You can’t seperate what God himself joined together. You can’t put Mary on a shelf and say she means nothing and we can’t and shouldn’t love her to much because that will put her above Christ. Such feelings are false.

The fact is God himself has honored Mary, and works only through Her! I will put my treasure where God’s treasure is, and that treasure is Mary

 

[Brooklyn]

I am probably one of those extremists in yours and many people’s eyes.

I can assure you however, that whatever appearance my devotion may have, Christ is always at the center. The same is true for everyone else I know with the same devotion.

It only appears that Christ is not at the center. but he is. Please be assured of that.

-Tim-

Most saints would be extremists in the eyes of some people here, and certainly Blessed John Paul II was an “extremist” - “All Yours.”

If devotion to Mary was the spiritual minefield that a lot of people are painting it to be and not all that important, why would Christ have given his mother to us in the first place, and why doesn’t the Church warn us about this danger? Why didn’t the saints warn us? The only place I ever seem to hear this warning is on CAF.

 

[Brooklyn]

Actually its the Holy Spirit that reveals Jesus Christ to us as who He is, and convicts us of sin in our heart. Thats his function, just like its also God’s function to forgive us from sin and save us. No human creature can do these things.

Also, you know Mary in light of Jesus, or you might not know her. In New Age eg. they have something like a worship of Mary, but its not really Mary of the Bible because these people do not submit to Christ but are often involved with idolatry.

The church describes Mary as the daughter of the Father, the Mother of the Son and the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. No human being, no other part of any of God’s Creation was or is as close to the Trinity as the Blessed Mother. From the moment of her conception, much less the moment of her birth, her will has always been completely at one with the Trinity. She was chosen and prepared to bear the Son of God. Satan hates her above all creatures because as we are told in Genesis, her heel crushes his head.

Mary was crowned by the Trinity as Queen of all of God’s creation. She is the only human who was ever assumed into heaven both body and soul.

Most certainly no one would ever argue that grace, mercy and salvation come from God. But just as he came to earth through Mary, he sends his graces through her as well. Please notice that I used the word “through”, not “from.” There is a huge difference. God does not have to use Mary, but he has chosen to do that. As St. Louis de Montfort wrote, “It was through the blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus Christ came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world.”

 

[Brooklyn]

Indeed this is what I find too. Exemplified eg through this quote by
TimothyH:
“I belive Mary converts sinners by showering grace upon them when she sees fit, because it is her son’s will that sinners be converted, and she obeys her son. Any sinner who is converted as miraculously as I was should seriously consider that their conversion was because Mary decided that they would be converted and brought to a state of sanctifying grace”.

Here Mary is spoken of as the saviour, converter, source of grace in herself who decides whom to save. To me I cannot help but see it as description of a goddes. The godly attributes of God Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been given to a creature.
If people say that Timothy worships Mary, I would not know how to defend him… I don’t see what his definition of worship is, if its not giving a creature the attributes of the Lord.

I’m sure Tim can speak for himself, and I hope that he will. But I have to point out that you are putting words in his mouth and giving meaning to what he wrote that he most clearly never meant. There is a HUGE difference between God giving his graces through Mary and allowing her to give them to whom she chooses and saying she is “saviour, converter, source of grace in herself who decides whom to save”. Absolutely no one said that or even hinted at it. Please be more careful in your choice of words and how you phrase things.

Tim is not saying anything that hasn’t been said by many saints down through the centuries, and the Church not only didn’t condemn those who said such things, many of them have become cannonized saints, and St. Louis de Montfort is a candidate for doctor of the Church.

 

[Brooklyn]

One issue is that the average Catholic could probably tell you that they do not worship Mary but they instead venerate her. If you then asked that same average Catholic to define the word “venerate” they likely could not do so.

The second issue is one which has already been brought up, are people practicing what is true, or have they gone past truth into idolatry? No one that I have seen (certainly not me) is questions the truth of Marian devotion as taught by the Church. However, that does not mean that all people who become devoted to Mary stay within the truth.

Finally, as I noted above and someone else chimed in by saying it far more succinctly than I did, many saints were wrong about things and trying to use them as if they represent infallible sources is improper.

In regard to Mary, you have correctly pointed out that some saints did not accept the concept of the Immaculate Conception. As I pointed out to you, this was not a dogma of the Church until 1854 and no one was required to accept it until then.

I’m still waiting to hear about the lists of other wrong teachings from the saints in regard to Marian devotion that you keep hinting at it but never seem to actually put in writing.

 

[De_Montfort]

On the subject of reading and following the advice of the saints, it is first necessary to follow “church teaching” on these matters. The best source for these things is the Catechism and other Magisterial documents.
Then one can look at the writings of the saints and compare these to the doctrines of the Church for a full and accurate picture.

Peace
James

I have given quotes in this thread in numerous places. John Paul II has stated that De Montfort’s teaching are in line with the whole Church’s teachings.

Again I will take my advice from Holy Saints. They are Saints for a reason.

I find it rather funny just because some Saints had a strong devotion to Mary, that they should automatically be rejected because it has to do with loving Mary, and we cant love Her because it may offend Christ.

The union of Christ and Mary here is not well understood at all!

Nothing that I have given is “out of context” It’s been shown when we love and honor Mary in proper form there is nothing “Too Much”

 

[jwinch2]

In regard to Mary, you have correctly pointed out that some saints did not accept the concept of the Immaculate Conception. As I pointed out to you, this was not a dogma of the Church until 1854 and no one was required to accept it until then.

I know.

I’m still waiting to hear about the lists of other wrong teachings from the saints in regard to Marian devotion that you keep hinting at it but never seem to actually put in writing.

I never stated that any saint taught something wrong on Mary. I said that not everything that saints wrote or said is true and part of the deposit of faith.