Devotion to Mary is it ever "to much"

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newprestonpete said:
Mary led me out of the wilderness of sin and to her Son. She helped me to repent and change my life. How can I be overly devoted to her?
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Welcome here Glens Falls ! I grew up near there, alot I miss about the area !😉

I like your answer , that is my story as well, perfectly.

All this worry about what people might THINK of our devotions to the Blessed Mother, how sad. People have no idea what they are missing. I say that as a convert whose very last thing to accept in the Church was Mary. I was never more wrong about anything ! What a strange and wonderful (and surprising !) thing it was to have Her show me what true conversion to her Son was really all about… After 15 years in the Church I thought i knew all about it, i was such a smart Catholic. I didn’t know anything…

Folks, how can anyone say that we know what Mary’s role is, and what she may be able to do for us, or what Christ may be able to do for us right here in this life. Fact is, we have no idea how powerfully Jesus and His Mother can act in our lives here and now.
I can tell you it is beyond imagination what either can do. Jesus as our God and Mary as his faithful servant, working on our behalf.

Exactly how that works between them i have no idea, but i know Jesus has bestowed great and powerful graces on the Blessed Virgin Mary, again on our behalf. I will never again deny her presence in my life, because i am forever grateful for how she brought me to accept God’s presence in my life. It is all new, no part of my life is the same as it was before. Freedom and happiness i never even dreamed of.

So forget about what other people may think, talk to her, ask her, she WILL lead you to her Son. She is an expert at that, it is what she is all about. When (not ‘if’) it happens, you will be thanking them Both, and you will understand why many love her with all their hearts.

This following quote just begins to brush on how I feel about Our Lady.
You might be surprised who wrote it :​

“She, the lady above Heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble, that she would have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility. Surely it would have been more just to arrange for her a golden coach, pulled by 4000 horses. And to cry and proclaim as the carriage proceeded, here passes the woman who was raised above the whole human race. She was not filled with pride by this praise, this immense praise.”

“No woman is like unto thee, thou art more than an empress or a queen. Blessed above all nobility, wisdom, or saintliness.”

----Martin Luther, shortly before his death in 1546, years after he left the Church.​

 
Jwhinch2 has made very good solid points on this topic and i agree with them, which is rare because we’ve disagreed on other things. 😃
 
TimothyH said:
No one is required to consecrate themselves to Mary, it is not Gospel. I think you know that. It is pious act and a way to draw closer to Jesus, that’s all. I recommend it for those who are so inclined.

At the same time though, I think there was a time in Catholicism during which, if one had asked if Mary was Mediatrix of Grace, or even Mediatrix of All Grace, the vast majority of Catholics would have said, “Of course” and would not have lifted an eyebrow.

I think Catholicism has lost something over the past years. If there has been any influence on the Church from non-Catholic sources in the past fifty years, and if there has been anything lost in the time since the 60’s, it is definitely in this area. There seems to be a downplay of Mary to a certain extent, and maybe even a certain hesitation at outward devotion because of how it might apear to other who are not so inclined.

If architecture, liturgy, music, and reverence have suffered, then Marian spirituality has right along with it. The loss of Marian spirituality is the one area where I agree with traditionalists. Marian spirituality is something which we had, something which was quite normal and widely accepted even by those who did not practice it, and something which we have lost to a certain extent. And I think we are worse for its loss.

-Tim-
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So they say that cradle Catholics are different than converts when it comes to Marian veneration. They also say it can take some years for a convert to get to the point where you folks are, if ever.

So far some of the stronger objections have been from converts.

Maybe there is a learning curve, so to speak.

Tim how long ago did you convert?
 
GraceDK said:
Attributing her with godly attributes such as being source of grace, salvation and forgiveness. Assuming her to be as powerful as Christ. Assuming her to hold away the wrath of Christ who died for our sins and who loves us most of all, as though she could ever love us as much as he has loved us.

The debate is now moving into an interesting phase… the one that deals with whether prayers or songs to Mary are to be taken litterally or poetically.

When you for example pray the Salve Regina, do you do so litterally:" Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, my life my sweetness and a my hope", or poetically?

I must see it as a poetical song. To mean litterally that Mary is our hope would, for me, be a sign of attributing her with godly attributes which is a very dangerous thing to do… Since I don’t agree with the use of words at all, I cannot in good conscience sing that song, although I used to do it without questioning anything.

The way I like to speak, both in my spiritual life and in my normal daily life, is that I truly mean what I say litterally. I think that in matters religious this is particularly important, as it might cause scandal and confusion if we dont.
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God has given Mary a share in His power. Everything that belongs to Christ by nature is given to Mary by grace.

From True devotion to Mary

“What I say in an absolute sense of our Lord, I say in relative sense of our Blessed Lady, Jesus in choosing her as his inseparable associate in his life, death, glory and power in heaven and on earth,has given her by grace in his kingdom all the same rights and privileges that he possesses by nature. All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace, say the saints, and according to them, just as Jesus and Mary have the same will and the same power, they have also the same subjects, servants and slaves”

Its actually a rather simple teaching, God has given by grace to Mary all that belongs to Him.

This in no way takes it “too far”. God has chosen Mary as His “inserparable associate”.
 
“God sends to us the one who personifies his love: Mary, the spouse of the Spirit–a spirit of maternal love–immaculate, all beautiful, spotless, even though she is our sister, a true daughter of the human race. God confiedes to her the communication of his mercy to souls. He makes of her the Mediatrix of the graces merited for us by her divine Son, for she is full of grace, the mother of all souls born of grace, reborn, and always being reborn, becoming ever more God-like.”
 
De_Montfort said:
Has God himself not glorifed Her?

She shares in His glory, it is in my quote above…
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Please stop responding to direct questions with questions of your own instead of answering.

Yes or no. Is Mary now divine?
 
De_Montfort said:
“God sends to us the one who personifies his love: Mary, the spouse of the Spirit–a spirit of maternal love–immaculate, all beautiful, spotless, even though she is our sister, a true daughter of the human race. God confiedes to her the communication of his mercy to souls. He makes of her the Mediatrix of the graces merited for us by her divine Son, for she is full of grace, the mother of all souls born of grace, reborn, and always being reborn, becoming ever more God-like.”
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De Monfort are your quotes all from True Devotion to Mary?
 
jwinch2 said:
Please stop responding to direct questions with questions of your own instead of answering.

Yes or no. Is Mary now divine?
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“Jesus is not merely divine; he is God, God the Son, Mary is not God, but she is fully divine because, as a creature, she has no life except in her relationship with God: with the Father whose daugther she is; with the Son, whose Mother she is; with the Holy Spirit, whose sanctuary she is.
As creature she is close to us, as God’s own Mother she apporaches divinity
When we honor the Immaculata we are very specifically adoring the Holy Spirit”

(Maximilian Kolbe–Book Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit—Imprimatur E. Berrar,ep. vicar.)
 
De_Montfort said:
"Jesus is not merely divine; he is God, God the Son, Mary is not God, but she is fully divine because, as a creature, she has no life except in her relationship with God: with the Father whose daugther she is; with the Son, whose Mother she is; with the Holy Spirit, whose sanctuary she is.
As creature she is close to us, as God’s own Mother she apporaches divinity
When we honor the Immaculata we are very specifically adoring the Holy Spirit"

(Maximilian Kolbe–Book Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit—Imprimatur E. Berrar,ep. vicar.)
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:eek:

Is the bold Church teaching?
 
Today the Traditional Breviary was in regard to the Queenship of Mary. There were some very interesting readings that I thought some on this thread would find enlightening. The first is excerpts from a reading by St. Peter Canisius the Priest (1521-1597, about 150 years before St. Louis de Montfort, who lived from 1673 to 1716):

And as Queen she is second to none of the elect, but in dignity is raised so high above both Angels and men that nothing can be higher or holier than she, who alone hath the same Son as God the Father, and who seeth above her only God and Christ, and below her all creatures other than herself.

Thus Mary is rightly called Queen, not only of heaven, but also of the heavens, as the Mother of the King of Angels, and as the Bride and beloved of the King of the heavens. O Mary, most august Queen and most faithful Mother, to whom no one doth pray in vain who prayeth devoutly, and to whom all mortal men are bound by the enduring memory of so many benefits, again and again reverently do I beseech thee to accept and be pleased with every evidence of my devotion towards thee, to value the poor gift I offer according to the zeal with which it is offered, and to recommend it to thine all-powerful Son.

There is also a reading from St. Bonaventuren (1221-1274, about 500 years before St. Louis de Montfort:

For if it behoveth a son to give honor to his mother, it is also fitting that he share his royal throne with her ; and so the Virgin Mary, because she did conceive him on whose thigh was written King of kings and Lord of lords, was Queen not only of earth but also of heaven as soon as she conceived the Son of God. This is indicated in the Apocalypse where it saith : A great sign appeared in the heavens : a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown on twelve stars.

Mary the Queen outshineth all others in glory, as the Prophet clearly sheweth in the Psalm concerning in particular Christ and the Virgin Mary. He saith first of Christ : Thy seat, O God, endureth forever, and shortly thereafter of the Virgin : Upon thy right hand did stand the Queen, that is, in the position of highest blessedness, for he referreth to to the glory of the soul. . . . As it was fitting for Christ to grant the fullness of grace to his Mother at her Conception, so was it fitting that he grant her the fullness of glory at her Assumption. And so we are to hold that the Virgin, glorious in soul and body, is enthroned next to her Son.

**Mary the Queen is also the distributor of grace. ** This is indicated in the Book of Esther in the passage : The little spring which grew into a river and was turned into a light and into the sun. The Virgin Mary, under the type of Esther, is compared to the outpouring of a spring and of light, because of the diffusion of grace for two uses, that is, for action and for contemplation. For the grace of God, which is a healing for the human race, descendeth to us from her as if through an aqueduct, since the dispensing of grace is attributed to the Virgin not as to its beginning, but because of her position through merit. By position the Virgin Mary is a most excellent Queen towards her people : she obtaineth forgiveness, overcometh strife, dispenseth grace ; and thereby she leadeth them unto glory.

As I said, I took these readings from the Traditional Breivary. Therefore, it is safe to say that these are official teachings of the Catholic Church. I showed in an earlier post that after intense reveiw during the cannonization process, the Church said there was nothing in St. Louis de Montfort’s writings that was an obstacle to his cannonization, meaning there is nothing in his writings that is opposed to church teaching. And that means that we can accept everything in the writings of St. Louis de Montfort as church teaching. As you can see here, he was not the first to say the things he wrote. They were said and written by the saints down through church history. He just put it all together and that is why he is considered the leading authority on Marian devotion.
 
jwinch2 said:
Christ is divine by nature. Is Mary now divine?
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There is nothing wong per se with the idea that the saints become by grace what God is by nature. See for example this quote from St. John of Damascus:“For I live,” says the Lord, “and I shall glorify those who glorify me,” (1 Kgd 2:30) and the divine apostle, “So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, an heir of God through Christ,” (Gal 4:7) and “if we suffer together [with him], so that we are glorified together.” (Rom 8:17) You are not waging a war against images, but against the saints. John the theologian, who leant on Christ’s breast, there-fore says, that “we shall be like him.” (1 Jn 3:2) For just as iron plunged in fire does not become fire by nature, but by union and burning and participation, so what is deified does not become God by nature, but by participation. I am not speaking of the flesh of the incarnate Son of God; for that is called God immutably by hypostatic union and participation in the divine nature, not anointed by the energy of God as with each of the prophets, but by the presence of the the whole of the one who anoints. Because by deification the saints are gods, it is said that “God stands in the company of gods, in the midst he discriminates between the gods,” (Ps. 81:1) when God stands in the midst of the gods, distinguishing their several worth, as Gregory the Theologian interprets it.

Apologetic Treatises Against Those Decrying the Holy Images 2.19 That being said, the doctors from the East, like St. John of Damascus, viewed deification by grace as being not unique to one human, the Theotokos, but as being the purpose and end of all of humanity, which seems to be different from some of the views being presented here, which seem to limit such a purpose and destiny to the Theotokos alone.
 
jwinch2 said:
Which does not answer her question.
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Do you think St. Maximilian Kolbe would have been cannonized if a statement like that went against church teaching? I think it does answer the question. You were the one always bringing up taking things out of context. Look at the full quote:

Mary is not God, but she is fully divine because, as a creature, she has no life except in her relationship with God: with the Father whose daugther she is; with the Son, whose Mother she is; with the Holy Spirit, whose sanctuary she is.
As creature she is close to us, as God’s own Mother she apporaches divinity
When we honor the Immaculata we are very specifically adoring the Holy Spirit

Because Mary is so at one with the Trinity, any adoration and veneration we give her goes directly to God, and in this case, St. Maximilian Kolbe says it goes directly to the Holy Spirit. No other part of God’s creation is as closely united with God as our Blessed Mother because she was never stained with sin, she was never separated from God at any point in her existence. That is why she is the greatest of all of God’s creation. Drawing close to Mary is drawing close to God. She and the Trinity can never be separated.
 
Cavaradossi said:
There is nothing wong per se with the idea that the saints become by grace what God is by nature. See for example this quote from St. John of Damascus:“For I live,” says the Lord, “and I shall glorify those who glorify me,” (1 Kgd 2:30) and the divine apostle, “So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, an heir of God through Christ,” (Gal 4:7) and “if we suffer together [with him], so that we are glorified together.” (Rom 8:17) You are not waging a war against images, but against the saints. John the theologian, who leant on Christ’s breast, there-fore says, that “we shall be like him.” (1 Jn 3:2) For just as iron plunged in fire does not become fire by nature, but by union and burning and participation, so what is deified does not become God by nature, but by participation. I am not speaking of the flesh of the incarnate Son of God; for that is called God immutably by hypostatic union and participation in the divine nature, not anointed by the energy of God as with each of the prophets, but by the presence of the the whole of the one who anoints. Because by deification the saints are gods, it is said that “God stands in the company of gods, in the midst he discriminates between the gods,” (Ps. 81:1) when God stands in the midst of the gods, distinguishing their several worth, as Gregory the Theologian interprets it.

Apologetic Treatises Against Those Decrying the Holy Images 2.19 That being said, the doctors from the East, like St. John of Damascus, viewed deification by grace as being not unique to one human, the Theotokos, but as being the purpose and end of all of humanity, which seems to be different from some of the views being presented here, which seem to limit such a purpose and destiny to the Theotokos alone.
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No I was not trying to say that it belongs only to Mary, with that said Her degree of holiness and glory are above all creation.Yes in the end we will be immaculate like Her, just not in the same degree.
 
Cavaradossi said:
There is nothing wong per se with the idea that the saints become by grace what God is by nature. See for example this quote from St. John of Damascus:“For I live,” says the Lord, “and I shall glorify those who glorify me,” (1 Kgd 2:30) and the divine apostle, “So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, an heir of God through Christ,” (Gal 4:7) and “if we suffer together [with him], so that we are glorified together.” (Rom 8:17) You are not waging a war against images, but against the saints. John the theologian, who leant on Christ’s breast, there-fore says, that “we shall be like him.” (1 Jn 3:2) For just as iron plunged in fire does not become fire by nature, but by union and burning and participation, so what is deified does not become God by nature, but by participation. I am not speaking of the flesh of the incarnate Son of God; for that is called God immutably by hypostatic union and participation in the divine nature, not anointed by the energy of God as with each of the prophets, but by the presence of the the whole of the one who anoints. Because by deification the saints are gods, it is said that “God stands in the company of gods, in the midst he discriminates between the gods,” (Ps. 81:1) when God stands in the midst of the gods, distinguishing their several worth, as Gregory the Theologian interprets it.

Apologetic Treatises Against Those Decrying the Holy Images 2.19 That being said, the doctors from the East, like St. John of Damascus, viewed deification by grace as being not unique to one human, the Theotokos, but as being the purpose and end of all of humanity, which seems to be different from some of the views being presented here, which seem to limit such a purpose and destiny to the Theotokos alone.
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I have no problem with the teaching of sharing in God’s grace and divinity. However, that is not the same thing in my view as suggesting that Mary is fully divine.
 
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