Devotion to Mary is it ever "to much"

[Brooklyn]

I’m obviously not Tim but felt compelled to exclaim that whoever “they” were that said these things regarding converts must have had their head firmly situated in their posterior region.

I say, nonsense, to ALL of that rubbish spoken by “they”. All of us go through a spiritual journey and each of us has a different pace.

It makes me sad to hear there are “those” out there that think they are privy to something or have more devotion just because they were “born” into the religion.

I’ve always felt if have been called by the Lord to His Church then you are just as able to experience it’s full richness, no matter how old you are.

Just my :twocents:

Excellent post.

One ‘puts on Christ’ one ‘clothes oneself in Christ’ … one thinks like Christ.

This is the goal for all.

No human being was ever more like Christ than our Blessed Mother, the Mother of God. To imitate Mary is to imitate Christ.

I was baptized Catholic when I was 29 days old in 1963, but my parents left the faith shortly after my first reconcilliation and first communion. I remember being scared to death as a little kid, of having to tell my sins to a stranger in a dark booth, and remember staring at the life size statue of Mary crushing the head of the serpent as I waited on line. It hated it. Religion terrified me. I recieved the Eucharist twice and was glad when my parents never went back.

They went from congregationalist (United Church of Christ) to Methodists and dragged me along through my teenage years.

I married a Catholic and was slowly drawn back into our faith, going to Mass occasionally, but couldn’t tell you why we knelt or what the word Eucharist was. I started searching for the truth about five years ago, studying with Evangelicals, went to Baptist men’s conventions, the tail end of promise keepers, and I tried real hard to be one of those steriotypical Bible thumping Evangelical.

One night about four years ago, I was reading John 6, looking for loopholes in the Catholic faith and God literally knocked me off my chair. I realized that everything people claimed about God was true, and that everything Catholics claimed about their Church was true, and I fell in love with God and his Church. I made a 37 year confession the next day.

About a year ago I met a Franciscan priest, and told him my story, and he told me that my conversion was because of Mary, that such a conversion of sinner was because she willed that it happen, and he suggested consecration as a way to serve Jesus through Mary. I looked into it and did it December 8 of last year.

-Tim-.

Our story is somewhat similar. I too was born into the faith, however, I was very devout as a child and had a strong devotion to Mary. But as my devotion to Mary waned, so did my devotion to Christ and his Church and I left at age 14. I made a 38 year confession, and like you, I did the total consecration last December 8. I’m still learning what it really means, but I feel like my spiritual life has gone on hyper drive since then. I really feel that outside of salvation itself, Mary is the most precious gift that our Lord has given us.

Mary has reached perfection. Mary is fully divinized.

-Tim-

This is probably splitting hairs, but I would have to say that Mary has always been perfect. I think she constantly attained higher levels of spirituality throughout her life, especially with the tremendous suffering she experienced with her Son. But she never “reached” perfection. She has always been there.

 

[TimothyH]

Our story is somewhat similar. I too was born into the faith, however, I was very devout as a child and had a strong devotion to Mary. But as my devotion to Mary waned, so did my devotion to Christ and his Church and I left at age 14. I made a 38 year confession, and like you, I did the total consecration last December 8. I’m still learning what it really means, but I feel like my spiritual life has gone on hyper drive since then. I really feel that outside of salvation itself, Mary is the most precious gift that our Lord has given us.

Oddly enough, when I went to the consecration day at the monastery on Dec 8, the monk/priest had people who were already consecrated stand up and tell us what it has meant to them. Most said that they are still learning what it really means after several years.

Same for me. I went into it blind and an just now learning.

I’ll keep you in my prayers.

-Tim-

 

[Brooklyn]

Oddly enough, when I went to the consecration day at the monastery on Dec 8, the monk/priest had people who were already consecrated stand up and tell us what it has meant to them. Most said that they are still learning what it really means after several years.

Same for me. I went into it blind and an just now learning.

I’ll keep you in my prayers.

-Tim-

Thanks for that. I feel like I should be more aware of what it means to be consecrated to Mary. I do understand more than when I did the consecration, but I still feel like I have a long, long way to go!

 

[Cavaradossi]

No one in God’s creation nor in His mind will he be loved honored and glorifed as he is in Mary. No one will ever be Immaculate like Her, or be so intimately united to Christ as was the Immaculata. All these things take place in Mary who was and always will be full of grace. Its not me who says this but God who has set Mary above all creation.

She is above all of creation because she gave birth to God in the flesh, because through her synergy with God, she provided for the fulfillment of man in his archetype, the incarnate Christ. But does this imply that she is united with God in a way which is impossible for us to achieve? Why is she hailed as the great example of unity with God if we cannot attain to that same unity? Is her end (her telos to use the Greek word), different from the rest of the human race?

Mary was never at any time in her existence stained by sin. She was never separated from God at any time, not even in the smallest way. She has always been completely united with God. She was most definitely as human as we are, but she is also on a much higher level than we will ever be able to reach.

And it isn’t even just because of her sinless nature. She also suffered in the passion of her Son just as much as if she hung on the cross with Him. From the moment that Simeon told her in the temple that her soul would be pierced, her suffering began and only became more intense from that point on. Her whole life was one of suffering because, like Abraham, she offered her Son to God, with one major difference. Abraham was stopped at the last minute. Mary went through it with Jesus, every painful step. She is more glorified than any of us will ever be because she suffered more than any other human has suffered, and it was in the saving Passion of the Saviour.

But in the age to come, is it not true that what is known in part shall be done away with? Is that not what the Apostle means in 1 Corinthians 13:9-12? How then can her end be different from ours? Will we still know in part even when “that which is in part shall be done away”? Surely, we will continue to revere her in the age to come as the mother of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, but will our very purpose and end as human beings be different from hers? I am not so sure that I am understanding how you are teaching that conclusion.

 

[De_Montfort]

That is prideful.

How on earth is that prideful???!!!

Mary is the most humble creature in all creation, It is God who has exalted Her. How is sharing in his divinity prideful??? She followed Christ to the fullest and God has shared all his priviliages with Her. If anything it shows humility!

 

[De_Montfort]

She is above all of creation because she gave birth to God in the flesh, because through her synergy with God, she provided for the fulfillment of man in his archetype, the incarnate Christ. But does this imply that she is united with God in a way which is impossible for us to achieve? Why is she hailed as the great example of unity with God if we cannot attain to that same unity? Is her end (her telos to use the Greek word), different from the rest of the human race?

No one will ever reach the union she has with God (God has set her above all creation). Her mission is to unite us to God. Her and the Holy Spirit have the same mission, to proclaim Christ and bring about union with Him in souls.

 

[Cavaradossi]

No one will ever reach the union she has with God (God has set her above all creation). Her mission is to unite us to God. Her and the Holy Spirit have the same mission, to proclaim Christ and bring about union with Him in souls.

Does that mean that she is no longer human but that God has made her into something greater by “setting her above all creation”? In other words, is it that our potential for union with God is the same as hers but that in us, that potential goes unrealized, or is it that God by “setting her above all creation” has made her potential for union greater than our own potential?

 

[BornAgainRN]

I read some of the posts about “taking it to far”. What about the wisdom of the Saints, are we saying they took it to far?

“Whoever does not wish to have Mary Immaculate as his Mother will not have Christ as his Brother either; the Father will not send his Son to him; the Son will not descend into his soul; the Holy Spirit will not make him a member of the mystical body of Christ; for all these mysteries of grace take place in Mary full of grace, and in her alone. No other creature is or will ever be immaculate like her, or full of grace, or capable of being so intimately united to the Lord as was the Immaculate Virgin. And since the first-born, the Man-God, was conceived only through the specific consent of the Most Blessed Virgin, the same holds true of all other humans, who must imitate in all things their primary model, Christ.”
(St. Maximilian Kolbe)

So is this Holy Saint taking it to far? Pope John Paul II called him an “apostle of a New Marian age”

I think I will take my advice from Holy Saints of the Church, then just someones speculation.

To answer your question, consider these quotes from the Holy Bible:

“And Mary said: ‘My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my SAVIOR.’” (Luke 1:46-47)

“But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of A WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW, so that HE MIGHT REDEEM THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:4-5)

“For He [Christ] rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved SON, in whom we have REDEMPTION, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Colossians 1:13-14)

While Mary is pregnant with Jesus, she declares she needs a Savior (her unborn Son, Jesus). Paul tells us that she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of her sins (which is why Mary needed a Savior), since her BIRTH, because she was ‘born under the Law,’ & all those born under it, need a Redeemer. Therefore, since Mary was a sinner WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus, as well as at her BIRTH, she could not have been ‘Immaculately Conceived.’ Jesus, Who is God, was perfectly capable of protecting Himself in Mary’s womb from her sins. So, the “Immaculate Conception” of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.

So, Maximilian Kolbe (who we don’t know for certain is a saint, because he isn’t mentioned in the Bible as being one, & no one except for Jesus, knows for sure whether a person is in Heaven or not) is indeed ‘taking it too far,’ & so is Pope John Paul II, with all due respect.

In Christ,
Steve.

 

[TimothyH]

Does that mean that she is no longer human but that God has made her into something greater by “setting her above all creation”?

Mary is human, but is the pinnacle of God’s creation.

Mary was chosen to be the pinnacle of creation by God before she was conceived, and conceived to be the pinnacle of creation so that she might bear God in her womb.

Mary has been set above all creation. Mary has been so elevated by her Son Jesus who is the King of all creation. He has elevated his Mother to be the Queen of Heaven and Earth, and as such she is above the angels and the saints. All the angels and saints bow to Jesus the King and Mary who is Jesus’ Queen.

Mary is human, but she is the pinnacle of creation, the Queen of Heaven and Earth, second only to Jesus.

Reference Ad Caeli Reginam by Pope Pius XII, Oct 11, 1954.

-Tim-

 

[BornAgainRN]

“Nothing is to much when it comes to honoring the Immaculate Virgin” [1413]
(St. Faustina)

“Jesus was the first to honor her as His very Mother and we must imitate Him also in this. We will never, as much as we try, love Her with a love equal to that which Jesus loves her.”
(St. Maximilian Kolbe)

So why so much “caution” when speaking of devotion to Mary. It is not to be put on the same level as the saints because of Her complete link to Christ. The Saints say it can never be to much!

Devotion to Her should be next to Christ!

Actually, Jesus never referred to Mary as His mother. He only referred to her as ‘Woman,’ even on the cross. We should have respect for Mary, as God graced her, by choosing her to be the vessel to bring the Savior of the world, based on His eternal will, but not based on anything particularly special about her, but only out of His unconditional love for her. However, we must not elevate Mary to a level in the Church higher than what Scripture records her to be - the mother of our Lord Jesus. Our devotion should be to Jesus, not Mary, who is no higher part of the Church than we are. Those of us are just as ‘complete in Christ’ as Mary is, who have placed our faith & trust in Christ’s atoning work on the cross for the final payment for our sins, just as Mary did (Luke 1:46-47; Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14).

In Christ,
Steve.

 

[De_Montfort]

To answer your question, consider these quotes from the Holy Bible:

“And Mary said: ‘My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my SAVIOR.’” (Luke 1:46-47)

“But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of A WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW, so that HE MIGHT REDEEM THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:4-5)

“For He [Christ] rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved SON, in whom we have REDEMPTION, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Colossians 1:13-14)

While Mary is pregnant with Jesus, she declares she needs a Savior (her unborn Son, Jesus). Paul tells us that she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of her sins (which is why Mary needed a Savior), since her BIRTH, because she was ‘born under the Law,’ & all those born under it, need a Redeemer. Therefore, since Mary was a sinner WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus, as well as at her BIRTH, she could not have been ‘Immaculately Conceived.’ Jesus, Who is God, was perfectly capable of protecting Himself in Mary’s womb from her sins. So, the “Immaculate Conception” of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.

So, Maximilian Kolbe (who we don’t know for certain is a saint, because he isn’t mentioned in the Bible as being one, & no one except for Jesus, knows for sure whether a person is in Heaven or not) is indeed ‘taking it too far,’ & so is Pope John Paul II, with all due respect.

In Christ,
Steve.

Of course Mary needed Christ and He is Her Saviour, but all Christ’s merits were applied at the instant of Mary’s Immaculate Conception. Chirst is able to do so and Sacred Scripture witnesses to this, He showed his glory on the moutain before His Passion was completed, He gave His Body and Blood at the Last Supper in anticipation of His Sacrifice on the Cross. Mary was “pre-redeemed” Christ can apply his merits when and where He pleases.

 

[TimothyH]

Actually, Jesus never referred to Mary as His mother. He only referred to her as ‘Woman,’ even on the cross. We should have respect for Mary, as God graced her, by choosing her to be the vessel to bring the Savior of the world, based on His eternal will, but not based on anything particularly special about her, but only out of His unconditional love for her. However, we must not elevate Mary to a level in the Church higher than what Scripture records her to be - the mother of our Lord Jesus. Our devotion should be to Jesus, not Mary, who is no higher part of the Church than we are. Those of us are just as ‘complete in Christ’ as Mary is, who have placed our faith & trust in Christ’s atoning work on the cross for the final payment for our sins, just as Mary did (Luke 1:46-47; Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14).

In Christ,
Steve.

Scripture records that the Kings of the Old Testament elevated their Mother’s to the position of Queen, and as the King of kings and fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy, that is exactly what Jesus did.

Mary is a Queen, just like the mother’s of the kings in the Old Testament. That is what scripture records.

-Tim-

 

[De_Montfort]

Actually, Jesus never referred to Mary as His mother. He only referred to her as ‘Woman,’ even on the cross. We should have respect for Mary, as God graced her, by choosing her to be the vessel to bring the Savior of the world, based on His eternal will, but not based on anything particularly special about her, but only out of His unconditional love for her. However, we must not elevate Mary to a level in the Church higher than what Scripture records her to be - the mother of our Lord Jesus. Our devotion should be to Jesus, not Mary, who is no higher part of the Church than we are. Those of us are just as ‘complete in Christ’ as Mary is, who have placed our faith & trust in Christ’s atoning work on the cross for the final payment for our sins, just as Mary did (Luke 1:46-47; Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14).

In Christ,
Steve.

Devotion to Mary is devotion to Jesus. She can only lead to Jesus, everything is for Him.
He called Her “Woman” because she is the “New Eve”…

 

[nickybr38]

The reason for caution is simple.
Not everyone is in the same spiritual class as the saints you mention above.
Not everyone has read their writings or understand their deep spirituality.
Not everyone has been properly catechized in these matters.
It is easy for people who are spiritual infants, or poorly catechized to hear or read things out of context and misunderstand and or misapply them in their own spiritual life and/or in conversation with others.

In my opinion, anyone who comes to Christ, needs to come to Christ first. Get to know Him and The Father. Then, let Them introduce the newcomer to the Holy Mother, her place and her role.
That way confusion and improper “worship” is far less likely AND the person will be prepared to correctly answer the questions of others.

But that is just my opinion…

Peace
James

P.S. I Love you Mom.

Thank you James. You are always the voice of reason about this issue.

Since converting I have developed a much closer relationship with Mary and devotion to her but that first year I wanted Christ and ONLY Christ. The fanatic devotion some Catholics have towards Mary CAN scare potential Protestant converts away.

Having devotion towards her is not bad, but how you present that devotion to others who don’t understand CAN be a problem. You must always be aware of your surroundings.

St. Paul instructed us to pray quietly in our rooms and not to make a big scene and I think this instruction can apply to how we approach Mary in public.

Just my opinion.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Mary is human, but is the pinnacle of God’s creation.

Mary was chosen to be the pinnacle of creation by God before she was conceived, and conceived to be the pinnacle of creation so that she might bear God in her womb.

Mary has been set above all creation. Mary has been so elevated by her Son Jesus who is the King of all creation. He has elevated his Mother to be the Queen of Heaven and Earth, and as such she is above the angels and the saints. All the angels and saints bow to Jesus the King and Mary who is Jesus’ Queen.

Mary is human, but she is the pinnacle of creation, the Queen of Heaven and Earth, second only to Jesus.

Reference Ad Caeli Reginam by Pope Pius XII, Oct 11, 1954.

-Tim-

But isn’t humanity collectively the pinnacle of God’s creation? This is what I’m not understanding. If she is human, then what sets her apart from the rest of the saints cannot be in virtue of her deification and glorification in Christ, as that is the collective destiny of man, but it must be in virtue of the fact that she gave birth to God in the flesh. I have no discomfort with the latter justification for setting the Theotokos apart from all other saints as the pinnacle of creation. But I find ideas like “we can never unite with God like she has” to be troubling, because they seem to indicate that her potency for union with God is somehow greater than ours, which would indicate that she is not of the same nature as we are.

 

[TimothyH]

But isn’t humanity collectively the pinnacle of God’s creation? This is what I’m not understanding. If she is human, then what sets her apart from the rest of the saints cannot be in virtue of her deification and glorification in Christ, as that is the collective destiny of man, but it must be in virtue of the fact that she gave birth to God in the flesh. I have no discomfort with the latter justification for setting the Theotokos apart from all other saints as the pinnacle of creation. But I find ideas like “we can never unite with God like she has” to be troubling, because they seem to indicate that her potency for union with God is somehow greater than ours, which would indicate that she is not of the same nature as we are.

I understand. It does seem to be a puzzle, as if somehow the discussion must insist that Mary somehow has some greater potiential for union with God which we don’t, and that doesn’t make sense.

The only thing I can say is that as the destiny of man is deification and glorification in Christ, and as we have not yet acheived it, Mary has. That was done because God willed it to be so. When God wills that it be so for you and I, it will be so.

Your post is lucid and well thought out.

-Tim-

 

[De_Montfort]

Does that mean that she is no longer human but that God has made her into something greater by “setting her above all creation”? In other words, is it that our potential for union with God is the same as hers but that in us, that potential goes unrealized, or is it that God by “setting her above all creation” has made her potential for union greater than our own potential?

Mary is fully human, she is a creature, but her union with God is above all creation
Mary is a “new creation” fashoined by the Holy Spirit…

“Mary alone found grace before God without the help of any other creature. All those who have since found grace before God have found it only through her. She was full of grace when she was greeted by the Archangel Gabriel and was filled with grace to overflowing by the Holy Spirit when he so mysteriously overshadowed her. From day to day, from moment to moment, she increased so much this two-fold plenitude that she attained an immense and inconceivable degree of grace. So much so, that the Almighty made her sole custodian of his treasures and the sole dispenser of his graces.”
(St. Louis de Montfort)

 

[Church_Militant]

To answer your question, consider these quotes from the Holy Bible:

“And Mary said: ‘My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my SAVIOR.’” (Luke 1:46-47)

“But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of A WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW, so that HE MIGHT REDEEM THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:4-5)

“For He [Christ] rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved SON, in whom we have REDEMPTION, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Colossians 1:13-14)

While Mary is pregnant with Jesus, she declares she needs a Savior (her unborn Son, Jesus). Paul tells us that she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of her sins (which is why Mary needed a Savior), since her BIRTH, because she was ‘born under the Law,’ & all those born under it, need a Redeemer. Therefore, since Mary was a sinner WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus, as well as at her BIRTH, she could not have been ‘Immaculately Conceived.’ Jesus, Who is God, was perfectly capable of protecting Himself in Mary’s womb from her sins. So, the “Immaculate Conception” of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.

Gee, just because someone is “saved” preemptively from falling into a pit doesn’t mean that they are any the less saved from it whether they are prevented from falling into it or rescued from it after falling in, now does it? Were not the OT saints “saved” by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross even though it was still a future event whose salvific merits are actually timeless in both directions. That being the case…Mary would have benefited from that even as she was conceived for her unique role in the history of mankind.

So, Maximilian Kolbe (who we don’t know for certain is a saint, because he isn’t mentioned in the Bible as being one, & no one except for Jesus, knows for sure whether a person is in Heaven or not) is indeed ‘taking it too far,’ & so is Pope John Paul II, with all due respect.

In Christ,
Steve.

Here, you’re pretty much talking through your hat. Though none of us can know another’s final end for sure, we can recognize their virtue and celebrate their life of faith.

Our Lord said " Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) and based upon even just that we can see and recognize the holiness of St. Maximilian Kolbe by the record of his actions. Maximilian Kolbe, Saint For Our Times

As for John Paul the Great…this was a man of God who was holier on his worst days than most of the rest of us on our best, and no one more committed to the love and service of Our Lord Jesus Christ so again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

[Church_Militant]

Devotion to Mary is devotion to Jesus. She can only lead to Jesus, everything is for Him.
He called Her “Woman” because she is the “New Eve”…

Exactly! Mary’s every recognized message has agreed with her message in John 2:5 "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. "

 

[constantconvert]

Well, I’m going to pose my original question again. What’s the difference between veneration and worship?