Devotion To Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sister_Helena
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As I understand it, this forum allows for those of other persuasions and convictions to communicate their views as well. In short, I am a committed Christian who finds much of the Catholic dogma quite unconvincing. The Marian doctrines are certainly no exception. Therefore, if I may, I have a number of questions for those willing to answer…

When I have read through the gospels, I have yet to find a single occurrence where Jesus commands or even suggests that we should be venerating Mary (Marian devotion). Could anyone provide one? In fact, have the Catholics on this particular thread read through the gospels in their entirety yet? Some may not have—and that’s OK—I’m just wondering. If you have, do you think Mary’s role was prominent in the gospels? If so, give me some examples. (Just curious.)

I have read Scott Hahn’s reply to Marian devotion and find it once again—unconvincing. He says the following factors offer an argument for the veneration of Mary:
  1. Christ obeyed the law perfectly
  2. the Ten Commandments sum up that law
  3. one Commandment reads, “Honor your father and mother”
  4. because Christ fulfills the law, He fulfills that commandment;
  5. hence, Christ bestows honor and glory upon His mother;
  6. we are called to imitate Christ
If this is not a stretch, then I don’t know what is! Sure Christ obeyed the law perfectly and the Ten Commandments sum up that law. And, yes, the fourth Commandment is to “honor your father and mother.” So as I see it, it is true that Christ fulfilled this Commandment and bestowed honor upon His mother (just as all human beings are called to do). However, when I look at what the RCC ACTUALLY DOES with Mary is something radically different. It is no secret that Rome has given Mary a god-like status and exultation that Scripture (especially Jesus) did not. Where in Scripture does Jesus EXHALT His mother? It seems to me that He consistently downplays His relationship with her (Luke 11:28-29). Further, I am aware that while the Hebrew word for honor (kabad) has a secondary meaning of “to glorify”, its primary meaning is “to honor” which is the meaning in Exodus 20:12. What follows is that this word certainly does not connote giving god-like worship to a “co-redeemer”, “co-mediatrix”, “Queen of heaven”, etc. as I understand it. If possible, will someone please provide me with an answer of biblical substance? Thanks very much.
 
Dear narrowpath; I will make this simple enough. Mary is the mother of God. THAT ALONE is reason to honor and venerate her! She is very far from god-like. Mary is our mother, too, and as I posted before, any good mother leads their child to safety. Use your common sense…when you introduce your friends to your own mother, would you be happy if they ignored her? Or would you rather they extend a hand and have them be polite to your mom just for the simple fact that she is your mom?

This is what Catholics (as should every Christian) should do regarding Mary, but on a much broader scale. Protestants can never grasp the importance of Mary, which is mind boggling to me. How can ANYONE NOT feel that Mary is so much more than a uterous for Jesus? That totally cheapens Jesus’ birth. Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his hand maiden .For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name.”

Mary helps lead us to Christ. She is not worshipped or glorified. But let me end this post by asking you a question: If you had an opportunity to meet Mary, how would you treat her? How do you THINK Jesus would WANT you to treat her?
 
About Narrowpath…I think it’s important to note here that while protestants believe in life after death they don’t all believe in the communion of saints…so they wouldn’t think Mary has any awareness of us and therefore can’t see the point of having devotion to her…they also like to use Catholic devotion to Mary as a means to stir things up and make themselves feel better about what they are missing out on…being part of Christ’s church…They also seem to love to ignore the FACT that even Luther had devotion to Our Lady…I’m coming from 26 years of experience being part of an Evangelical Free protestant church…it’s wonderful to be back in the 1 true church!
 
narrow_path said:
It seems to me that He consistently downplays His relationship with her (Luke 11:28-29).
Click to expand...
Did Jesus really downplays his relationship with Mary? and He taught us to respect our mother?

Did Jesus not practice what He preached?
 
Thanks so much for responding.

You (jazzbass981) say:

"Dear narrowpath; I will make this simple enough. Mary is the mother of God. THAT ALONE is reason to honor and venerate her! She is very far from god-like. Mary is our mother, too, and as I posted before, any good mother leads their child to safety. Use your common sense…when you introduce your friends to your own mother, would you be happy if they ignored her? Or would you rather they extend a hand and have them be polite to your mom just for the simple fact that she is your mom?

This is what Catholics (as should every Christian) should do regarding Mary, but on a much broader scale. Protestants can never grasp the importance of Mary, which is mind boggling to me. How can ANYONE NOT feel that Mary is so much more than a uterous for Jesus? That totally cheapens Jesus’ birth. Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his hand maiden .For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name.”

Mary helps lead us to Christ. She is not worshipped or glorified. But let me end this post by asking you a question: If you had an opportunity to meet Mary, how would you treat her? How do you THINK Jesus would WANT you to treat her?"

You say that Mary is your mother, too. That is fine if you wish to believe that, but I’m still having trouble figuring out where you are getting this from Scripture. Sure, I honor my father and my mother just as all Christians are called to do. If friends were coming over, I would make sure everyone had proper introductions and felt comfortable during the conversations. But what does this have to do with Mary? You say Mary was your mother……in what sense? I assume this must mean spiritually, but if that is the case, what precedent in Scripture do you find that we must all acknowledge Mary as our “mother” and use her to get to Jesus? Where in Scripture do we see that Mary is the one mediator between God and man? Especially considering 1 Timothy 2:5-6, “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.” Please provide biblical answers if you can……I would really appreciate it.

Further, how does it “cheapen” Jesus’ birth if Mary were nothing more than an obedient, humble instrument in which God chose to use to bring into the world the Second Person of the Trinity via the Incarnation? Where is the cheapening? You quote the Magnificat, specifically Luke 1:47 where Mary states, “And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” So, Mary’s Savior was God (Jesus) and it seems to me that only sinners need a Savior. After all, have not all fallen short of the glory of God? By the way, I do believe Mary was extremely blessed and privileged to bring Jesus into the world. In that sense, I have no problem calling her “blessed for all generations.” She was blessed!

You asked me a direct question: “If you had an opportunity to meet Mary, how would you treat her? How do you THINK Jesus would WANT you to treat her?”

I would treat her with kindness and respect knowing full well that she too has received the grace of God for her salvation. I also believe Christ would want it to be this way. One thing I would not do is EXALT her because I understand that while she brought into this world the God-man, she certainly was NOT the mother of His deity. This is critical. In order for Christ to take on human form, He needed someone to be humble and obedient to do it. Mary fit the bill. She was humble and obedient. Perhaps Christ is the one you might really have an issue with because HE is the one who spoke to her like this:

“While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (Luke 11:27-28)

“On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:1-5)

Many more examples could be given. So, did JESUS treat her wrongly? By the way, He NEVER even addressed her as “mother.” Rather, it was “woman.” Why do think that was?
 
withwind - "Did Jesus really downplays his relationship with Mary? and He taught us to respect our mother? Did Jesus not practice what He preached?

Surely He practiced what He preached. And, because He did not preach to us that we should be exalting Mary, I don’t. Do you really believe Mary is capable of hearing all of our prayers? This would mean that she is omniscient. And omniscience is a divine attribute is it not? Where is this power supposedly given to her in Scripture? I might add that if Jesus chose to downplay a relationship with His mother; that is up to Him. I happen to believe He had good reason to downplay the relationship, especially when Mary was beginning to step beyond what her role entailed. Jesus put her in check. This is far from a lack of respect because Mary, too was one of His children. Just like a good parent who scorns their child for misbehaving, (tough love) Jesus will scorn and even rebuke those He loves. This could not be further evident when He told Peter to “get behind Me, Satan!”
 
Andray68-

“About Narrowpath…I think it’s important to note here that while protestants believe in life after death they don’t all believe in the communion of saints…so they wouldn’t think Mary has any awareness of us and therefore can’t see the point of having devotion to her…they also like to use Catholic devotion to Mary as a means to stir things up and make themselves feel better about what they are missing out on…being part of Christ’s church…They also seem to love to ignore the FACT that even Luther had devotion to Our Lady…I’m coming from 26 years of experience being part of an Evangelical Free protestant church…it’s wonderful to be back in the 1 true church!”

Yes, Luther had devotion to her. He also had many other problems with his life and his theology. But who cares what Luther thought? He was just another man. Should not Scripture be our guide? What matters is what GOD thinks. Often times when speaking with Catholics I will read rebuttals that simply do not address the biblical text; rather it’s, “We should do this, or we should do that….” But why? When did Scripture get tossed by the wayside?

Aside from this, if I were you, I’d be very careful not to judge the motivation of others. You say, “while protestants believe in life after death they don’t all believe in the communion of saints…so they wouldn’t think Mary has any awareness of us and therefore can’t see the point of having devotion to her…they also like to use Catholic devotion to Mary as a means to stir things up and make themselves feel better about what they are missing out on…being part of Christ’s church.”

Are you speaking for ALL Protestants? If so, this is quite arrogant and terribly misguided. And, the burden of proof is still with you to demonstrate your position on Mary from Scripture. Show me in Scripture that Mary has an awareness of us and can hear our prayers as you claim. Surely, this should not be difficult for someone part of the “one true church.”
 
Dear Sister

I credit my return to the church to our lady of Mount Carmel. I was away from the church for 20 years. However I continued to wear a brown scapular all the time. When I had had enough of the sinful life I was leading a mental picture of Mary came to my mind. I asked her to help me and immediately prayed the Hail Mary. I returned to mass the following Sunday and have gone every week since and that was two years ago. The blessed mother led me back to her Son. It may sound silly, but looking back I think of that brown scapular as a life line. I now pray the rosary daily, have improved my prayerlife, and my relationship with Jesus. I have a long way to go but I credit the blessed mother with leading me to her son.

2 Favorite Hymns-- Immaculate Mary and Hail Holy Queen

God Bless
 
Eucharisted said:
True devotion to Mary is imitation of her virtues.

(There, I summed up True Devotion to Mary for you :D)
Click to expand...
:amen: Amen! I try to pray the rosary at least once a week even though I’m supposed to pray the rosary every day since I am invested in the brown scapular.
 
narrow_path said:
withwind - "Did Jesus really downplays his relationship with Mary? and He taught us to respect our mother? Did Jesus not practice what He preached?

Surely He practiced what He preached. And, because He did not preach to us that we should be exalting Mary, I don’t. Do you really believe Mary is capable of hearing all of our prayers? This would mean that she is omniscient. And omniscience is a divine attribute is it not? Where is this power supposedly given to her in Scripture? I might add that if Jesus chose to downplay a relationship with His mother; that is up to Him. I happen to believe He had good reason to downplay the relationship, especially when Mary was beginning to step beyond what her role entailed. Jesus put her in check. This is far from a lack of respect because Mary, too was one of His children. Just like a good parent who scorns their child for misbehaving, (tough love) Jesus will scorn and even rebuke those He loves. This could not be further evident when He told Peter to “get behind Me, Satan!”
Click to expand...
The problem is with your “rule of faith”, Luther, in separating himself from the authority of the Church, adopted the Bible alone as the “rule” of faith. The authority of Jesus in the “keys of the Kingdom” given to St. Peter and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles is the “rule”. This is called Sacred Tradition, and this is the “template” that is used in reading Sacred Scripture. The myriad of Protestant traditions and denominations show a lack of the “oneness” Jesus called for. The true Church across the world is the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church. The Apostles had The Blessed Virgin for many years after the Ascension and since Mary was with Jesus for thirty years cooperating with Him for our redemption, what they handed down is the true Faith. It is said truly of Luther: If Luther was right, 1500 years of Christianity up to that time, was wrong. Well, it wasn’t then and Catholic aren’t wrong now.
 
Dearest Sister

Thank you very much for sharing. To me She is the perfect Mother. Most of what I do is for Her. I try to do all for Her , but am not perfect. She seems very much like a Mother to me rather than a Queen. I know She’s a Queen, and the greatest, but all Her dealings with me show the most tender maternal care. I can’t praise Her enough.

God bless you:thumbsup:🙂
John
 
Well, I have always felt “something” for Our Lady. I was especially excited about her when I was in elementary school, when a certain unapproved apparition was my teacher’s devotion. Although I wandered away from the Church, and then Christianity, I decided to research this unapproved apparition. I credit my research with bringing me back to the Faith. (It was not easy!)

I started researching approved apparitions and was especially moved. I am drawn to Our Lady of Guadelupe. I have not been to Mexico, nor am I of Latin American heritage. (I did study Spanish for 7 years.) I have seen the Shrine to Our Lady of Guadelupe in Washington DC and the outdoor OLG shrine on Cape Breton Island, NS.

I love going to the National Basilica in Washington DC. Not only do they have the OLG shrine, but also many others. I prefer the shrines in the upper church. What always moves me is the “Mary Queen of Hearts” shrine, where “To Jesus Through Mary” is prominently displayed.

Because of the Basilica, I am gaining devotion to Our Lady through Eastern European depictions. Our Lady of Siluva tells a beautiful story and the shrine is magnificent! The Czestochowa shrine is reverent! Our Lady of Sorrows is also very touching! I highly recommend everyone who can… go see the Basilica!!!

I ask Mary for Her intercession constantly. This is a new practice for me. I talk with her in my own words. I try to wear one of my two Marian bracelets every day. (They serve as reminders of Our Lady- her virtues, characters, her Maternal love!)
 
narrow_path said:
Surely He practiced what He preached. And, because He did not preach to us that we should be exalting Mary, I don’t. Do you really believe Mary is capable of hearing all of our prayers? This would mean that she is omniscient. And omniscience is a divine attribute is it not? Where is this power supposedly given to her in Scripture?
Click to expand...
Didn’t you know that Peter while he was still living can bring someone dead to life? Where do you think he got that from? Your answer will answer your question in regarding to Mother Mary. God can do anything; and He gives that to Mother Mary.
narrow_path said:
I might add that if Jesus chose to downplay a relationship with His mother; that is up to Him. I happen to believe He had good reason to downplay the relationship, especially when Mary was beginning to step beyond what her role entailed. Jesus put her in check.
Click to expand...
Even if you believe what you believe, it would not hurt you if you read the book “Hail, Holy Queens”. It might give you some good insights.
narrow_path said:
This is far from a lack of respect because Mary, too was one of His children. Just like a good parent who scorns their child for misbehaving, (tough love) Jesus will scorn and even rebuke those He loves. This could not be further evident when He told Peter to “get behind Me, Satan!”
Click to expand...
Yet, didn’t Jesus turn water to whine anyway?
anh you think that Jesus downplays Her role? Wasn’t She His mother? Could you prove that Mother Mary was not His mother?
 
Earnest Bunbury-

“The problem is with your “rule of faith”, Luther, in separating himself from the authority of the Church, adopted the Bible alone as the “rule” of faith. The authority of Jesus in the “keys of the Kingdom” given to St. Peter and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles is the “rule”. This is called Sacred Tradition, and this is the “template” that is used in reading Sacred Scripture. The myriad of Protestant traditions and denominations show a lack of the “oneness” Jesus called for. The true Church across the world is the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church. The Apostles had The Blessed Virgin for many years after the Ascension and since Mary was with Jesus for thirty years cooperating with Him for our redemption, what they handed down is the true Faith. It is said truly of Luther: If Luther was right, 1500 years of Christianity up to that time, was wrong. Well, it wasn’t then and Catholic aren’t wrong now.”

To make sure I understand you correctly, you have no biblical answer, correct? Am I right in saying that your problem involves understanding and obeying the Word of God—Scripture? Nowhere in Scripture have you addressed any of my questions. Therefore, by going outside of Scripture and relying of the traditions of men, you are relying on uninspired documentation from uninspired writers. Also, why don’t you think it is even possible that 1500 years of Christianity was wrong? Judaism is far older than Christianity, yet still to this day it is basically an anti-Christ religion. What if it turns out that Christianity is around for 20,000 years before Christ returns? If it does, 1500 years of it would just be a blip on the map—the starting point in which there was much confusion and disagreement until we finally got it right much later.

I, for one, have rejected the so-called “authority” of the RCC some time ago. (That is for another thread) So I will resist the temptation to refute the alleged establishment of the papacy by Christ for another thread. As for the “oneness” Jesus called for, His instruction was to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.” This is what I have done, and if Catholics reading this right now have also done this, then I would consider them brothers; even though the RCC has anathematized me several times over.

Just speak with any number of Catholics over time and you will find out that there is as much disunity as humanly possible. Ask one question about any given issue, and there will be just as many different responses from Catholics as grains of sand on the seashore. There is not even unity with big social issues like abortion. 61% of registered Catholic voters voted for the most pro-abortion candidate in U.S. history this past election—contrary to the official position of the church. Sure, you can disagree with them until you’re blue in the face, but that will not change the fact that differing beliefs abound everywhere—especially among Catholics.

To put it simply, I choose not to follow the traditions of men, but rather the inspired words of Jesus, the apostles and prophets as they have been preserved for us. Much of this “Sacred Tradition” is what leads to much of the doctrinal error I have seen for so long. I find statements like this quite disturbing and even worse, umbilical in nature:

“To me She is the perfect Mother. Most of what I do is for Her. I try to do all for Her , but am not perfect. She seems very much like a Mother to me rather than a Queen. I know She’s a Queen, and the greatest, but all Her dealings with me show the most tender maternal care. I can’t praise Her enough.”

So we should give her “praise?” Isn’t praise interchangeable with worship? Yet I just read a post which denies that Mary is worshipped at all. When people begin to say things like this, I am left scratching my head where all this is coming from. Once again, prove me wrong from Scripture that Mary is nothing more than a dead sinner that does not even know you exist. That is my position. Check out Ecclesiastes 9:5: “For the living know that they will die, but THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.”

Further, where do we find that Mary cooperates with Christ for the salvation of men? Where do we even find that she was apparently sinless and was bodily assumed into heaven? These are foreign concepts to Scripture. But then again, Scripture is apparently not followed or it is outright ignored in the RCC. It is one thing to choose to go outside of Scripture for your additional authority, but it’s quite another to accept an authority WHICH SIMULTANEOULY CONTRADICTS the Bible. That is what is happening here.
 
Hi withwind. You said:

“Didn’t you know that Peter while he was still living can bring someone dead to life? Where do you think he got that from? Your answer will answer your question in regarding to Mother Mary. God can do anything; and He gives that to Mother Mary.”

I believe Peter got his authority to raise the dead from Christ. That was easy enough. So where do we find supernatural characteristics being given to Mary by Christ Himself? That is the question. I find it nowhere in Scripture. To say that He did means nothing unless and until you qualify the assertion with the biblical text……and you have not.

“Even if you believe what you believe, it would not hurt you if you read the book “Hail, Holy Queens”. It might give you some good insights.”

Actually, I have read a whole lot of Catholic material. I always find it interesting to find out why people believe what they do. To answer your question directly, I do not see Mary as holy or a queen in any sense. And, I certainly would not preface her name with “hail” for that is a term of worship. Therefore, I don’t think a book of that nature would be beneficial to my spiritual walk and relationship with Christ. I will say that I do see her as being blessed for the opportunity to bring Christ into the world. I think she was very humble and obedient—attributes to be commended for. But that is where it ends for me.

“Yet, didn’t Jesus turn water to whine anyway? anh you think that Jesus downplays Her role? Wasn’t She His mother? Could you prove that Mother Mary was not His mother?”

As I mentioned before, Mary was the mother of Christ’s HUMANITY. She was NOT the mother of His deity. Her contribution to the birth of Christ was entirely HUMAN in nature. To call her the “queen of heaven” or “mother of us all” or “co-redeemer” or “co-mediatrix”, etc. goes WELL BEYOND Scripture.

Once again, I am noticing that Scripture is absent from these answers.
 
narrow path,

If you want some scripture that shows the authority and holiness that has been given to Mary, check out:

All generations shall call me blessed.

My time has not come yet…do whatever He tells you (kind of strange after he just said no)…Jesus performed his first miracle and his disciples began to believe in Him.

so the firsr scripture says that everyone must call her blessed. And not for any old reason, but because of who God chose her to be.

the second verse shows us that she has a relationship with Jesus that makes her seem to even be able to have him do what he would not yet do. She helps us when she prays to him for us.
 
Sister_Helena said:
Catholics, from the moment of birth, is tied to the idea of devotion to Mary, Mother of God. It’s second nature to think of her as Mother and protectress. But what does it really mean to have devotion to her? Is it enough to surround ourselves with her statues, recite the rosary , follow her apparitions, or read books about her? Mary is a very significant part of my spiritual journey. I was led to Carmel because of her. But it didn’t always start that way. I’m sure Catholics instinctively love her even without the externals of devotion. Is that possible? I have read plenty of books about her but none satisfied me the most until I read “Marialis Cultus” and “Mother of the Redeemer.” Now, most of my books on Mary have to do with her place in the Carmelite spirituality and books written by our Carmelite Saints. It sounds disrespectful to say it but it is not: The more you get to know her, the more she grows on you…

The first devotion I had of Mary was under her title of Our Lady of Lourdes. I joined a children’s group called Children of Mary and little girls wore the white dress and blue sash. St. Bernadette was my favorite Saint then. When I entered religious life, I was introduced to Mary as Our Lady of Mount Carmel. In time I was able to meditate on her several virtues embodied under this title. All Carmelites are devoted to her under this title. “Carmel is All Mary”- is like a line you learn from rising to retiring in Carmel. The titles I love best of Mary are “Mother of God” and “Virgo Fidelis” (Faithful Virgin). I really don’t need anymore apparition by Our Lady. We have Fatima and Lourdes, those are enough for me.:nun1:
Click to expand...
Sr Helena,*
Code: 
Thank You once again for a wonderful thread tho it has become somewhat derailed I am afraid
As a Convert to Catholicism of nearly 35 years (Being raised Presbyterian)
I can say that not a day goes by that I don’t say either a rosary or some other devotion to Mary. I presently work in a small religious gift shop but I have to say on a daily basis I see what true devotion to Mary does in peoples lives. It in no way detracts from Christianity, rather it brings one closer to God in all his Richness.
I love the rosary… both the Dominican form and the Franciscan form. They are only a short synopsis of what is in scripture. I have known many people who came back to a practicing of the faith thru reciting the rosary. Again thank you to Sr Helena for starting a wonderful thread.
Blessings of Peace and all Good!*
 
narrow_path said:
withwind - "Did Jesus really downplays his relationship with Mary? and He taught us to respect our mother? Did Jesus not practice what He preached?

Surely He practiced what He preached. And, because He did not preach to us that we should be exalting Mary, I don’t. Do you really believe Mary is capable of hearing all of our prayers? This would mean that she is omniscient. And omniscience is a divine attribute is it not? Where is this power supposedly given to her in Scripture? I might add that if Jesus chose to downplay a relationship with His mother; that is up to Him. I happen to believe He had good reason to downplay the relationship, especially when Mary was beginning to step beyond what her role entailed. Jesus put her in check. This is far from a lack of respect because Mary, too was one of His children. Just like a good parent who scorns their child for misbehaving, (tough love) Jesus will scorn and even rebuke those He loves. This could not be further evident when He told Peter to “get behind Me, Satan!”
Click to expand...
God is our Father
Jesus is His Son – therefore he is our brother
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and since Jesus is God the Son she is our Mother also

We Catholics are taught to honour our Father and Mother – the family is all important. The Holy Family is our model. St Joseph is also a model and mentor.

Jesus turned to John at the foot of the cross and said “Behold your Mother”. Mary belongs to all of humanity. She is the Mother of God. Protestants such as Luther, Calvin and Zwingli all believed this. As Protestantism was watered down and splintered over time Mary became less important to Protestants.

Again, as on the other thread you display ignorance of language and culture. You suggest that Jesus did not call his Mother Mother but Woman instead, as if this is a bad thing. Firstly, not everything about Jesus’ life is recorded in the Bible. He only came on the scene when he was 30. I am sure he would have honoured his Mother and called her Mother. Now calling her Woman - you seem to consider this something lowly or demeaning? I am French and in my language a man refers to his wife as “Ma femme” (my woman). My Portuguese husband often calls me “Minha mulher” (My woman) or Minha mulherzinha (My little woman) – both are beautiful and terms of endearment. I am sure that in other latin languages the same thing occurs. You should really get an education and learn about different people and their culture. You tend to make rash judgments.

We Catholics love our Heavenly Mother. My husband, who was atheist and who came to believe God through a Jewish Scientist, converted to the Catholic Church 4 years ago. He had no problem at all embracing and honouring Mary. He is a well-read intellectual and immediately saw the value of Mary.

Cinette:)
 
To Narrow!

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead His Church into all truth and that is exactly what He did. I guess you think that the Holy Spirit took a “rain check” and only “kicked in” at the time of Luther, 1500 years later. How absurd!

… Also, why don’t you think it is even possible that 1500 years of Christianity was wrong? Judaism is far older than Christianity, yet still to this day it is basically an anti-Christ religion. What if it turns out that Christianity is around for 20,000 years before Christ returns? If it does, 1500 years of it would just be a blip on the map—the starting point in which there was much confusion and disagreement until we finally got it right much later.

I, for one, have rejected the so-called “authority” of the RCC some time ago. (That is for another thread) So I will resist the temptation to refute the alleged establishment of the papacy by Christ for another thread. As for the “oneness” Jesus called for, His instruction was to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.” This is what I have done, and if Catholics reading this right now have also done this, then I would consider them brothers; even though the RCC has anathematized me several times over.
…

To put it simply, I choose not to follow the traditions of men, but rather the inspired words of Jesus, the apostles and prophets as they have been preserved for us. Much of this “Sacred Tradition” is what leads to much of the doctrinal error I have seen for so long. I find statements like this quite disturbing and even worse, umbilical in nature:rotfl::rotfl: according to the dictionary “umbilical” means “proceeding from the naval” - how is that? Your choice of words leave me astounded!:

“To me She is the perfect Mother. Most of what I do is for Her. I try to do all for Her , but am not perfect. She seems very much like a Mother to me rather than a Queen. I know She’s a Queen, and the greatest, but all Her dealings with me show the most tender maternal care. I can’t praise Her enough.”

So we should give her “praise?” Again, you have a problem with language! Praise is not only an act of worship! In every day communication, people use the word to express “praise” for their children when they do well in their studies and any other number of things! Have you only used the word as an expression of worship? Isn’t praise interchangeable with worship? Yet I just read a post which denies that Mary is worshipped at all. When people begin to say things like this, I am left scratching my head where all this is coming from. Once again, prove me wrong from Scripture that Mary is nothing more than a dead sinner that does not even know you exist. *What! You call Mary nothing more than a dead sinner??? What an insult! This is probably something you would describe as “umbilical” since you have a problem with the English language. * That is my position. Your position is that you obviously do not believe in Eternal Life because you described Mary as “nothing more than a dead sinner” - May God help you! Check out Ecclesiastes 9:5: “For the living know that they will die, but THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.Further evidence that you have never heard of the Resurrection and therefore Eternal Life!! Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.” Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."

Further, where do we find that Mary cooperates with Christ for the salvation of men? Where do we even find that she was apparently sinless and was bodily assumed into heaven? These are foreign concepts to Scripture. Not to scripture but to your mind! But then again, Scripture is apparently not followed or it is outright ignored in the RCC. It is one thing to choose to go outside of Scripture for your additional authority, but it’s quite another to accept an authority WHICH SIMULTANEOULY CONTRADICTS the Bible. That is what is happening here.

No Narrow! What is happening here is that you have not come to CAF with an honest Agenda to debate, discourse and seek answers. You, Narrow, have come here to insult and ridicule. What is your Agenda?

*“For there are many things in scripture that are hard to understand which ignorant and unstable people distort as they do the other scriptures to their destruction”

2Peter 3:16*
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top