Devotion To Mary

[Poor_Clare_tobe]

You might enjoy my posts 88 and 94 . They describe some beautiful references to Mary I’ve been seeing.

Those are some very good questions, by the way . I’ve enjoyed seeing the responses to them on this thread, up to this point.

(Thank You… I had meant for many to post and to try to help get the thread going again back to its original questions… I am enjoying reading the many ways Our Brothers and Sisters share their individual experiences …)

*I most certainly shall lief… It is so very good to see so many people who have been touched by Marys care for us.

In my line of work… I have people come in daily looking for comfort… both Catholic Christians and Christians of other denominations. I have yet to find one who when they ask for my prayers or the prayers of the sisters… I have yet to find one who objects to us praying for them or bring their prayers to Mary and the Saints.
I will look forward to reading your posts tomorrow.

Blessings and Easter Blessings! *

 

[benedictus2]

My dear friend Benedictus

I hope you can forgive me for correcting one point seeing as how you’ve gone to so much trouble to make an excellent post just above. You say Mary was full of grace prior to Her conception, but the dogma of the immaculate conception says that Her soul was filled with grace at the very moment of conception. No time passed. She had the ill effects of original sin but never experienced them because of this sigular privelege of the immaculate conception.

God bless you:thumbsup:
John

Ooops! What I meant was she was already Full of Grace prior to Jesus’s conception or prior to her conceiving.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Lief!

I remember you telling us your age on another thread - 23 - and perhaps by now you have had a birthday. For one so young to have such insight and knowledge is a true blessing. You postings are always such a blessing to us who read them.

Thank you
Cinette
And as I said the word for wife in Portuguese, Spanish and French is Woman -

I second the motion.

 

[joe370]

Another possibility is she was teaching obedience in humility. Jesus also submitted to the Law at the Temple in the same scene Mary did, though His divine nature technically elevated Him above it.

In all fairness, with regard to some of Narrow Path’s post, we need to remember that we did tell him he’s hijacking the thread with his arguments, so his leaving is understandable and not necessarily cowardice. Also, very many people have responded to him thoroughly, so the fact that he didn’t get to all of our points in his answers is not too big a surprise. Responding thoroughly to all of us would have taken a LOT of time to do.

You made very sound rebuttals to his arguments in your posts, I think. It’s good to see people out there who know how to defend their faith.

Hey,Lief, that is a very good point! :thumbsuperhaps she did know but was simply teaching obedience in humility. I too must agree with Cinette! When I was 23, God was the last thing on my mind. What hooked you so soon in your life, if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Hey,Lief, that is a very good point! :thumbsuperhaps she did know but was simply teaching obedience in humility. I too must agree with Cinette! When I was 23, God was the last thing on my mind. What hooked you so soon in your life, if you don’t mind me asking?

God . He can do what He likes, when He likes. So He decided to get me at the age of 15. And now I’m 23.

 

[paul_c]

God . He can do what He likes, when He likes. So He decided to get me at the age of 15. And now I’m 23.

You are absolutely right. Youth is no impediment for God. Mary was 14 when she conceived Jesus. Bernadette Soubirous was 14 when she saw Mary at Lourdes. The visionaries at Fatima were even younger. God made us all for a purpose and sometimes that purpose is best executed by the young… Keep the Faith…

 

[requieroveritas]

… the burden of proof is still with you to demonstrate your position on Mary from Scripture. Show me in Scripture that Mary has an awareness of us and can hear our prayers as you claim. Surely, this should not be difficult for someone part of the “one true church.”

Dear narrow path;

You will not find in scripture, any direct reference to Mary as being the Mediatrix between us and Her son, or of her being the keeper of His graces, etc. Scripture is not about Mary, it is about Jesus and his redemption of mankind and what it takes for us to avail ourselves of the eternal salvation offered us through his death and resurrection. Even here, there are differences between what Catholics and protestants believe, insofar as what is required to obtain salvation. There are, however, many references to Our Lady and her extraordinary status, to be found in scripture. For example, from Revelation, chapter 12, “And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” The “woman” is Our Lady.

There are basic philosophical differences between how Catholics and protestants view what is to be believed. Catholics believe in a centralized church, headed by the Pope, whose authority, we believe, comes directly from Jesus. We defer to the Church in interpreting scripture, and to the Church’s authority, given it by Jesus, to tell us what else should or should not, can or can not, may or may not be believed. Herein, is the primary source for our belief in the status of Mary, as Queen of Heaven and of Earth, subsequent only to the Trinity itself.

Most protestants do not believe in a centralized authority to define scripture and to tell them what else may or may not be believed. Personal interpretation of scripture is often tainted by self motivated agenda, and without a centralized authority to instruct the faithful in further beliefs, protestants are left with only scripture to guide them. Thus the notion of: “If I can’t find it in scripture it is either false or doesn’t exist at all.” But recall, that even Jesus, when instructing his disciples, told them that there was so much more that he wanted to tell them.

Below is a link to the book “Mystical City of God”, in which the nature of God, and the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, is described by Sister Mary of Agreda, born in Spain on April 2, 1602, and given her in private revelation. The book whose original Spanish version was translated into English by Fiscar Marison which he began in 1902, was then published by the W. B. Conkey, Co., of Hammond IN.

I urge you, and anyone reading this post, to go to the site, and read at least the first 10 or so chapters of volume #1. You will need Adobe Reader, I believe, to access the files.

http://www.themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm

Then, if you cannot see and understand God’s plan for all of creation, and will not believe in the exulted status of Mary, the Mother of God, you probably never will.

I give you only one caveat: If you are honestly seeking answers concerning the stature of Our Lady, that is good, but if your intention here is nothing more than to debase and degrade the Mother of God, then, for the sake of your own soul, do not. This is what is written in the book I described above:

Concerning chapter 21 of Revelation;

1. “The angels of which the Evangelist speaks in this place, are seven of those who attend in a special manner at the throne of God and who have received commission and power to punish some of the sins of men. This vengeance of the wrath of the Omnipotent (Apoc. 15, 1) will happen in the last ages of the world; but it shall be a new punishment, greater than which neither before nor after is possible during mortal existence. But since these mysteries are deeply hidden and since not all have been revealed to me, nor concern this history, I do not consider it proper to expatiate upon them, but I will pass on to what more closely concerns my task. This angel, of which St. John speaks, is the one through whom God will avenge with an especial and dreadful chastisement the injuries committed against his most holy Mother ; for the insane daring, with which they have despised Her, has roused the indignation of his Omnipotence. As the most holy Trinity has pledged Itself to honor and exalt this Queen of heaven above all human creatures and above the angels, placing Her in this world as a Mirror of the Divinity and as the special Mediatrix of mortals, God has taken it in a particular manner upon Himself to avenge the heresies, errors, outrages, and all injuries committed against Her, since thereby men have not glorified, acknowledged and adored Him in this tabernacle and have not made use of this incomparable mercy. These punishments are prophesied to the holy Church. Although the mysterious words of the Apocalypse enshroud in obscurity the rigor of this punishment, yet woe to the unhappy ones, that shall be overtaken by it ! Woe to me, who have offended a God so strong and powerful to chastise! I am over whelmed in the expectation of the great calamity here threatened.”

 

[Cinette]

Dear narrow path;

You will not find in scripture, any direct reference to Mary as being the Mediatrix between us and Her son, or of her being the keeper of His graces, etc. Scripture is not about Mary, it is about Jesus and his redemption of mankind and what it takes for us to avail ourselves of the eternal salvation offered us through his death and resurrection. Even here, there are differences between what Catholics and protestants believe, insofar as what is required to obtain salvation. There are, however, many references to Our Lady and her extraordinary status, to be found in scripture. For example, from Revelation, chapter 12, “And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” The “woman” is Our Lady.

…

Most protestants do not believe in a centralized authority to define scripture and to tell them what else may or may not be believed. Personal interpretation of scripture is often tainted by self motivated agenda, and without a centralized authority to instruct the faithful in further beliefs, protestants are left with only scripture to guide them. Thus the notion of: “If I can’t find it in scripture it is either false or doesn’t exist at all.” But recall, that even Jesus, when instructing his disciples, told them that there was so much more that he wanted to tell them.

Below is a link to the book “Mystical City of God”, in which the nature of God, and the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, is described by Sister Mary of Agreda, born in Spain on April 2, 1602, and given her in private revelation. The book whose original Spanish version was translated into English by Fiscar Marison which he began in 1902, was then published by the W. B. Conkey, Co., of Hammond IN.

I urge you, and anyone reading this post, to go to the site, and read at least the first 10 or so chapters of volume #1. You will need Adobe Reader, I believe, to access the files.

http://www.themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm

Then, if you cannot see and understand God’s plan for all of creation, and will not believe in the exulted status of Mary, the Mother of God, you probably never will.

I give you only one caveat: If you are honestly seeking answers concerning the stature of Our Lady, that is good, but if your intention here is nothing more than to debase and degrade the Mother of God, then, for the sake of your own soul, do not. This is what is written in the book I described above:

Concerning chapter 21 of Revelation;

1. “The angels of which the Evangelist speaks in this place, are seven of those who attend in a special manner at the throne of God and who have received commission and power to punish some of the sins of men. This vengeance of the wrath of the Omnipotent (Apoc. 15, 1) will happen in the last ages of the world; but it shall be a new punishment, greater than which neither before nor after is possible during mortal existence. But since these mysteries are deeply hidden and since not all have been revealed to me, nor concern this history, I do not consider it proper to expatiate upon them, but I will pass on to what more closely concerns my task. This angel, of which St. John speaks, is the one through whom God will avenge with an especial and dreadful chastisement the injuries committed against his most holy Mother ; for the insane daring, with which they have despised Her, has roused the indignation of his Omnipotence. As the most holy Trinity has pledged Itself to honor and exalt this Queen of heaven above all human creatures and above the angels, placing Her in this world as a Mirror of the Divinity and as the special Mediatrix of mortals, God has taken it in a particular manner upon Himself to avenge the heresies, errors, outrages, and all injuries committed against Her, since thereby men have not glorified, acknowledged and adored Him in this tabernacle and have not made use of this incomparable mercy. These punishments are prophesied to the holy Church. Although the mysterious words of the Apocalypse enshroud in obscurity the rigor of this punishment, yet woe to the unhappy ones, that shall be overtaken by it ! Woe to me, who have offended a God so strong and powerful to chastise! I am over whelmed in the expectation of the great calamity here threatened.”

Thank you very much for this requieroveritas. I do hope that Narrow will read your posting.

The Church belongs to noone but to every soul on earth. This is not a competion or we are right and you are wrong. It is about truth for all to reach out and accept. To deny is very sad. We want to share our Faith with all because it is for all. So when people of other faiths demean the Faith they do so out of ignorance and prejudice - they have bought into the lies which have been spread by the enemies of the Church and in so doing they are denying themselves something true, beautiful and good that is there for their acceptance.

I hope Narrow sees your posting and decides to put aside prejudice and take a good look. I shall pray for him.

Thank you
Cinette

 

[benedictus2]

Since so many believe I have “hijacked” this thread, I will make this my last post here and let the borderline blasphemous Marian worship continue.

Precious! Coming from a more than borderline blasphemous narrow_path
Benedictus2 also responded to the Luke 2:22-24 passages. It is important to remember that these verses would not make much sense if Mary were allegedly “sinless” or had been immaculately conceived. She presented an offering to the Jewish priest for her sinful condition she was in—so, yes you are correct to reference Lev. 12:2 because the OT law required it. But this strengthens my point immensely—it would not make any sense for her to do these things if she really was sinless or immaculately conceived.
As always your inability to read shines through. The Levitical prescription was because Mary “shed blood” during pregnancy. Not for sin but because she was considered unclean due to the fact that she shed blood. Did you even read Lev 12. It said there in the same manner as one having her menstrual period.

---

Also did you even read properly that it said THEIR offering meaning hers and Jesus’s? If that was so you are saying that Jesus is also sinful and needed to be purified?

---

Maaan, read your Bible properly please. You claim to love it.

 

[benedictus2]

Since so many believe I have “hijacked” this thread, I will make this my last post here and let the borderline blasphemous Marian worship continue. I did want to address the idea of her alleged Immaculate Conception and sinlessness first. Luke 1:28 has been appealed to several times by several people. So here we have the phrase, “Hail, full of grace!” This is assumed to be a characteristic quality of Mary—I beg to differ. First the translation “Hail, full of grace” which comes from the Latin Vulgate is best rendered “favored one” NOT “full of grace.”

“The Greek word is kecharitomene which directly translate to full of grace.”

If you want to learn more about it (though I doubt it since you don’t seem to be really interested in learning) here is a more detailed explaination geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/kecharitomene.html

Thus, the favored one refers to the fact that Mary was indeed highly favored by God in having the wonderful privilege to bring into the word God-Incarnate. This very same point is made in verse 30 where the angel said to Mary, “You have found FAVOR with God.” This is no suggestion that God found any particular worthiness in Mary herself.

Have you been listening at all?! God did not find Mary worthy. God MADE Mary worthy by creating her Full of Grace.

Also, it is important to compare Scripture with Scripture. Look at Romans 5:12: “through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to ALL men, because ALL sinned.”

And if I were to read the Bible as narrowly as you do this verse means that JESUS IS ALSO A SINNER BECAUSE JESUS IS ALSO MAN.

So what happens to your exegesis now?

Luke 1:42 has Elizabeth telling Mary, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” Now, if this was supposed to be Elizabeth’s way of saying that Mary was sinless,

Okay you are right blessed here does not mean she is sinless. But if blessed here means she is sinful but only found favor with God, then does that mean that it goes for Jesus too because that is all Elizabeth said about Jesus, that He is blessed?

 

[joe370]

Dear narrow path;

Below is a link to the book “Mystical City of God”, in which the nature of God, and the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, is described by Sister Mary of Agreda, born in Spain on April 2, 1602, and given her in private revelation. The book whose original Spanish version was translated into English by Fiscar Marison which he began in 1902, was then published by the W. B. Conkey, Co., of Hammond IN.

I urge you, and anyone reading this post, to go to the site, and read at least the first 10 or so chapters of volume #1. You will need Adobe Reader, I believe, to access the files.

http://www.themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm

I am in the process of reading the Mystical City of God right now…Accounts of her mystical apparitions in the American Southwest, as well as inspiring passages in Mystical City of God, inspired 17th and 18th century missionaries; they credit her in their own life’s work, making her an integral part of the colonial history of the United States. Her body is reported to be incorruptible. During an opening of her casket in 1909, a cursory scientific examination was performed on the body. In 1989 a Spanish physician named Andreas Medina participated in another examination of Sister Maria de Jesus de Ágreda. Dr. Medina told investigative journalist Javier Sierra in 1991: “‘What most surprised me about that case is that when we compared the state of the body, as it was described in the medical report from 1909, with how it appeared in 1989, we realized it had absolutely not deteriorated at all in the last eighty years.’”

Here is an excerpt:

“I desire that they look upon the wonders wrought by my mighty arm in that pure Creature, as upon a mirror by which they can estimate their own ingratitude. I wish to make known to them much of that, which according to my high judgment is still hidden concerning the Mother of the Word.”

 

[joe370]

Narrow path:

Romans 3:23
“…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,…”

Matthew 3
“Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.”

Was every person living in Judaea and the region round about the Jordan baptized that day? According to your reasoning, the answer is yes.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

There’s really no point. I think, personally, it’s for the best that this conversation is behind us.

 

[Cinette]

This morning, after Mass, my husband and I went to the Cafe for a capuccino and the Greek Orthodox priest was there so I approached Fr Nicodemos and he explained to me that in the ancient Greek, to say Woman to one’s Mother was the same as saying Mother.

Actually, he made the same remark as I did for he said that when Jesus was on the cross he callled his Mother Woman and immediately afterwards he said “behond your son” placing his Mother in the care of John. That cannot be interpreted as demeaning in any way - it would not make sense. In any case what kind of person would Jesus be if he ever rebuked his Mother!!!

I think Narrow should ponder these things and break out of his prejudice mould - step aside and look at the whole picture and use his sense of* reasoning*.

With love
Cinette

Father Nicodemos gave me the following website which is the official Greek Orthodox site in America where you can get answers: www.goarch.org.

 

[joe370]

**Narrow path…

The curse due to the fall of man is a direct result of Satan’s influence and guile, due to his jealousy of the human race. The first man and woman, born immaculate, eventually disobeyed God by succumbing to Satan’s temptation/lies. Ruin overtook them and the rest OF THE HUMAN RACE; death was the penalty; Satan was the victor! If Mary as the new eve, was not born immaculate - was not preserved from sin, just as the first eve…If she was marked with the stain of original sin, the curse due to the fall of Adam and Eve, as a result of Satan’s influence and guile, then surely the anti-Christ can rightfully boast of being superior to the new eve, for not obeying God, whom God chose to obey by honoring her, as his true Mother.

Do you really think that God, who defeated and banished Satan from heaven due to his haughty pride and utter apostasy, would obey a woman who was subject to the same influences and temptations as the rest of us…who was subject to His antagonist who is the perfect embodiment of evil? Indirectly, Jesus would have been obeying a woman who was under the agency of Satan, if this is true!

If the first Adam and the first Eve were born immaculate then it only stands to reason that the new Adam and the new Eve were born immaculate. Death is no longer the penalty, thanks to the new Adams atoning work on the cross, and the new Eve’s perfect cooperation. Jesus is now the victor; all is restored.

**

 

[benedictus2]

Narrow path…

**The curse due to the fall of man is a direct result of Satan’s influence and guile, due to his jealousy of the human race. **
v
v
v
**If the first Adam and the first Eve were born immaculate then it only stands to reason that the new Adam and the new Eve were born immaculate. Death is no longer the penalty, thanks to the new Adams atoning work on the cross, and the new Eve’s perfect cooperation. Jesus is now the victor; all is restored. **

AAAAhhh Joe, great post as usual!!!:clapping:

 

[Cinette]

AAAAhhh Joe, great post as usual!!!:clapping:

Yes well said - really good!

Cheers
Cinette

 

[SienaFriend]

Ah, devotion to Mary…

Any advice for anyone in my situation?

As a lifelong catholic, I’ve always admired her, read many books about her, pray the rosary, have holy cards bearing her image, talk to her in my own words every day, novenas, have stopped at chapels dedicated to her, etc etc, but still have a very difficult time relating to her on a personal level. I just don’t feel close to her. For a long time I’ve longed to know a mother/daughter relationship with Our Lady but for some reason that remains something to be grasped at.

It’s like admiring a beautiful painting, a wonderful historical figure. The admiration is there, I learn about her often, but there is always that great distance. shrug Don’t know why. It bothers me although I accept it. My priest told me to talk to Mary about the very topic in my prayers, to bring it to her and put it in her hands. I’ve done that but there still seems to be a block. By the way, I have a good relationship with my own earthly mother , for some reason I have never been able to feel close to Mary although I would love to. I would describe my relationship with Jesus as intimate.

Any suggestions or insight? Thank you

I have just the opposite situation or did. I could relate to God the Father (even though my dad left when I was young, and died when I was 11) and Mary as a Mother, the Holy Spirit because of all the unexplainable things like miracles etc., Yet Jesus was harder for me, I related to him as in the Trinity fine, and baby, but he was God and more than a brother, and I had no relationship with my brother 13yr older and off to Vietnam when I was in 3rd grade, so I think I related to a brother as far away maybe.
What I finally found that helped…in addition to the rosary…was when I went to Sacred Space online it has a deal where you can do a mini prayer/meditation time online. One of the pages you close your eyes and imagine Jesus sitting across from you (and I held his hands in mine) and talked to him about how the previous pages I had read and meditated on affected me or what they brought to my mind. It seems to make a huge difference to me. Also having one of those cool old pictures of him, that the eyes feel like they are following you didn’t hurt either:blush:
Even thought the Gospels are all about Jesus and His words, I still felt like I couldn’t really get a grasp of his personality. I heard a priest talking about humor and the saints, he mentioned that Jesus very likely had a great sense of humor, that the parables in those days he would have had some humor in them too. I also think that it took me awhile to get over the fear of being a “Jesus Freak” when I came back into the fold. The loudest voices regarding Jesus always seemed to be the Holy Rollers on TV etc. so it was a turn off. We didn’t hear the catholics out in the world, so once I got in public school in 9th grade, I didn’t go to church, and I wasn’t exposed to him in any other way. That’s one thing I really pray for people to be cautious in the In Love Phase, and all the zeal we have, it’s great, but I always caution people to go slow and be like Mary…Keep it in your heart. She knows what she is doing!

 

[benedictus2]

Ah, devotion to Mary…

Any advice for anyone in my situation?

As a lifelong catholic, I’ve always admired her, read many books about her, pray the rosary, have holy cards bearing her image, talk to her in my own words every day,
v
v
v
ere still seems to be a block. By the way, I have a good relationship with my own earthly mother , for some reason I have never been able to feel close to Mary although I would love to. I would describe my relationship with Jesus as intimate.

Any suggestions or insight? Thank you

Hmmm, I’ve done quite a few posts on this thread but have not addressed the OP. Sorry!

You might want to explore your relationship with your mother. We are sort of on the same boat. My relationship with God the Father and Jesus are very personal and very, very real but with Mary it is different. There is a distance.

I know this stems from my relationship with my mother or at least how I see my mother.

If this is the case with you, a little exercise that might help would be to put a chair before you and imagine your mother sitting there. Try to vocalize everything you want to say to her. If there are hurts, if you feel misunderstood by her then say all that.

Maybe you could even do this same exercise with Mary sitting on the chair. Tell her in plain, simple words how you feel about her. Express your desire to truly see her as your mother.

My relationship with her changed (not greatly but still quite significantly ) whilst praying to her about an affair of the heart asking God to help me bear the pain. I was praying to her ( picturing up on a pedestal in the clouds sort of ) and then it felt like she came down and half knelt, half sat beside me saying " I will help you".

You might also ask St Catherine Laboure’s help in this regard. When her mother died when she was very young, she climbed up a chair so she can reach the mantelpiece where the statue of our Blessed Mother sat. She then told Our Lady " You will have to be my mother now".

 

[Lief_Erikson]

You might also ask St Catherine Laboure’s help in this regard. When her mother died when she was very young, she climbed up a chair so she can reach the mantelpiece where the statue of our Blessed Mother sat. She then told Our Lady " You will have to be my mother now".

That is so precious .