Devotion to Mary

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Lisa4Catholics:
Yes the Holy Spirit Loves Mary too, Edwin;) I think you become paranoid about Mary and Catholic Tom is falling into that because you have reduced God almighty into a meany who uses women and throws them away.God is not like that some humans sadly are.God Bless
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Hi Lisa4Catholics,
This response in no way addresses the quote.
I am sure the Holy Spirit loves Mary, although she does not need Him to lead her to Christ as she is in heaven, resting.
So again, if Mary is leading us to Jesus, what is the Holy Spirit doing. Scripture tells us that it is He ( the Holy Spirit) who leads us to Jesus. Can you answer this directly so I can understand Lisa.
If you do not believe the Holy Spirit leads us to Jesus, please say so.
Walk in love
edwinG
 
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edwinG:
Hi Lisa4Catholics,
This response in no way addresses the quote.
I am sure the Holy Spirit loves Mary, although she does not need Him to lead her to Christ as she is in heaven, resting.
So again, if Mary is leading us to Jesus, what is the Holy Spirit doing. Scripture tells us that it is He ( the Holy Spirit) who leads us to Jesus. Can you answer this directly so I can understand Lisa.
If you do not believe the Holy Spirit leads us to Jesus, please say so.
Walk in love
edwinG
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Edwin of course the Holy Spirit leads us to Jesus and also to give Mary the honor God gave her.The fact that Mary is a role model takes nothing away from Jesus,the fact that Mary prays for us,takes nothing away from Jesus.Edwin bless your heart,you are paranoid about Mary:nope: Mary says do whatever HE tells you:) BTW according to Revelations the saints are praying in heaven;)
 
It all boils down to love the people and hate the sin
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Unfortunately, you can’t seperate the sin from the sinner.

That is the reality of Hell for the unregenerate.
The sinner goes there because of the sin.

Ps: 5:4-5
For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not sojourn with thee.
The boastful may not stand before thy eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
…

Please don’t get the wrong idea, this isn’t the hate of malice, as it would appear in English. But it is the hate of seperation, which means hell.
😦

We don’t hold the theory of universal corruption, especially in the case of Mary. The reason being, Jesus needed to have pure flesh which was our flesh for the sacrifice of the cross.

God Bless you.
 
I have to admit I cringed when I heard one of the prayers in the Square say 'Mary, (I can’t remember the exact title given to her at thsi point - it was after the rosary had been said and they were going through a litany of titles for Mary), worthy of our praise and worship, pray for us’. I was hoping it was just a bad translation on the ‘worship’ part, because the interpreter was having a difficult time. Or, there might possibly be another meaning for the word ‘worship’ that is intended here. For example, I know Catholics and non-Catholics use the word ‘pray’ in different ways. We Catholics are constantly clarifying we *honor *Mary, not worship her, and to hear this come out of the Square will make this clarification even harder now. Again, I hope it was a bad translation.
 
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Elzee:
I have to admit I cringed when I heard one of the prayers in the Square say 'Mary, (I can’t remember the exact title given to her at thsi point - it was after the rosary had been said and they were going through a litany of titles for Mary), worthy of our praise and worship, pray for us’. I was hoping it was just a bad translation on the ‘worship’ part, because the interpreter was having a difficult time. Or, there might possibly be another meaning for the word ‘worship’ that is intended here. For example, I know Catholics and non-Catholics use the word ‘pray’ in different ways. We Catholics are constantly clarifying we *honor *Mary, not worship her, and to hear this come out of the Square will make this clarification even harder now. Again, I hope it was a bad translation.
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Worsip in Old English usage doesn’t necesaarily mean exclusively worship to God; Shakespeare uses it in his plays, such as a character might say to a maiden; 'I worsip thee". I don’t think Protestants object to Shakespeare’s usage. Similarly, songs such as “Fly Me to the Moon” use the word the same way:

You are all I long for
All I worship and adore

So the use of the word should be seen in context, or in relation to the object it is directed to. Catholic teaching holds that Mary is but a reflection of Christ; all worship should be solely to Him. Therefore, the use of “Worship” in this sense should mean an intense devotion to Mary, not the way one would intend it in revernce to God.
 
What is the main devotion to Mary you see everywhere?

The ROSARY!

And what is the Rosary?

It is a prayful meditation on the chief events of SALVATION HISTORY, largely as seen through the eyes of Mary.

The Rosary is about seeing the significance of the Annunciation, Presentation Crucifixion, Ascension, Pentecost etc.focussing on them with the Mother of God the Son.

…

As for the use of the word “worship”. It does pop up occasionally. What you need to remember is that like many words (including “pray”). The meaning has drifted over the centuries.

Consider a word like “maid”. Originally it just meant a girl. Then it added the meaning of virgin. Later it came to mean a poor or servant girl, then just any female servant.

The same has happened with “worship”. To many today it means worship due to God alone. 200 years ago it just meant give honour, as in “His Worship the Mayor.”

So it sometimes appears in older works connected to Mary, (The Hymn Mary immaculate for example) but the meaning is the older general meaning where “worship” = "“HONOUR”
 
Catholic Tom:
I don’t really truly appreciate and understand it. I see now, as the pope has died, at St. Peters square a litany of prayers to the Virgin Mary, calling her every glorious name in the book. I don’t understand why? Shouldn’t we be talking about Jesus more?
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The Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary

V. Lord, have mercy on us.

R. Christ, have mercy on us.

V. Lord, have mercy on us. Christ hear us.

R. Christ, graciously hear us.

God, the Father of Heaven: – **Have mercy on us. **(repeat at end of each phrase.)
God, the Son, Redeemer of the world:
God, the Holy Spirit,
Holy Trinity, One God,

Holy Mary, – Pray for us. (repeat at end of each phrase.)
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of Heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Virgins,
Queen of all Saints,
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
Queen assumed into Heaven,
Queen of the most holy rosary,
Queen of Peace.

Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
**Spare us, O Lord.
**Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
Graciously hear us O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
Have mercy on us.

v. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.

r. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let us pray: Grant, we beseech Thee, O Lord God, unto us Thy servants, that we may rejoice in continual health of mind and body; and, by the glorious intercession of blessed Mary ever Virgin, may be delivered from present sadness, and enter into the joy of Thine eternal gladness. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

ORDINARY TIME:

I. Grant, we beseech you, almighty God,
that we, your faithful,
who rejoice in the name
and under the protection
of the most holy Virgin Mary,
may, by her loving intercession,
be delivered from all evils here on earth
and be made worthy to reach eternal glory
in the life to come.
Through Christ our Lord. AMEN

II. Lord God,
give to your people the joy
of continual health in mind and body.
With the prayers of the Virgin Mary to help us,
guide us through the sorrows of this life
to eternal happiness in the life to come.
Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your son,
who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever. AMEN.

III. God of mercy,
give us strength.
rlay we who honor the memory
of tile Mother of God rise ahove our slus
and failings with the help of her prayers.
Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Your Son, who lives and reigns with you
and the lloly Spirit, one God, for ever
and ever. AMEN.

IV. Lord,
may the prayers of the Virgin Mary
bring us protection from danger
and freedom from sin
that we may come to tile joy of your peace.
We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ,
your Son, who lives and reigns with you
and the Holy Spirit, one God for ever
and ever. AMEN.

V. Lord,
as we honor the glorious memory of the
Virgin Mary, we ask that by the help of
her prayers we too may come to share
the fullness of your grace. Grant this
throug}l our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son,
who lives and reigns with you and the lloly Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever. AMEN.

VI. Lord Jesus Christ,
you chose the Virgin Mary to be your mother,
a worthy home in which to dwell.
By her prayers keep us from danger
and bring us to the joy of heaven,
where you live and reign with the Father and the
Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. AMEN.

Problems?
 
Huiou Theou said:
Unfortunately, you can’t seperate the sin from the sinner.

…

God Bless you.
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Hi Huiou Theou,
Romans 8:10 “And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness”

Yes you can if you are born again.

Walk in love
edwinG
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Edwin of course the Holy Spirit leads us to Jesus and also to give Mary the honor God gave her.The fact that Mary is a role model takes nothing away from Jesus,the fact that Mary prays for us,takes nothing away from Jesus.Edwin bless your heart,you are paranoid about Mary:nope: Mary says do whatever HE tells you:) BTW according to Revelations the saints are praying in heaven;)
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St Louis deMontfort said something to the effect of the Holy Ghost finding a soul moulded in the image of Mary more pleasant to reside in and to be formed more fully to what Mary points to - -Christ her Son; because in Mary the Holy Ghost was first pleased to overshadow and from it conceived the Word Incarnate.
 
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edwinG:
Hi Huiou Theou,
Romans 8:10 “And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness”

Yes you can if you are born again.

Walk in love
edwinG
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edwin, did you read my second sentence? – unregenerate = NOT born again.

Yes, I know it was small and easy to miss.
 
Catholic Tom:
I don’t really truly appreciate and understand it. I see now, as the pope has died, at St. Peters square a litany of prayers to the Virgin Mary, calling her every glorious name in the book. I don’t understand why? Shouldn’t we be talking about Jesus more? It’ just confuses me and appears (at least to me) to be an over emphasis on Mary. Whereas she may truly be all those great things being said about her in this time of prayer, I don’t see how this all fits in.

Second question I have, is why is there a devotion to Mary at all? Why has the pope dedicated his life to Mary? To me, I would think that he would be dedicating his life to Jesus!

I need help in understanding this. I agree with invoking the intercession of our blessed mother, and the value of it…but I think there is a fine line here about what becomes excessive. I would think that the only person you should devote your life to is Jesus, using Mary’s example as the model Christian. Thoughts?
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Maybe devotion to her will seem less bothersome (& be less bothersome) if you think of it as like appreciation of nature - appreciating a sunset is not wrong: yet no sunset is God.​

All that God makes, is meant to reflect its Creator - look at Psalm 19, for example:

Psa 19:1 The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.

Psa 19:2 Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge.

Psa 19:3 There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard;

Psa 19:4 yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,

Psa 19:5 which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs its course with joy.

Psa 19:6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.

And then, there is a passage about the value of the Law and its excellence. Here we have the world of nature proclaiming the greatness of God - and, just as the sun and stars and living things speak of God by being what God has made them, so it is with Mary - devotion to her, is an appreciation of what she is, not so much because she is a creature (all of us are that) as because she is a creature in whom God has done great things. The glory is always God’s, it is God Who has done great things - not Mary. That being so, God’s glory puts His works in their proper light - which makes it possible to see Mary more clearly, more nearly as He intends. He is the Light - she is lit by Him. And that Light, floods from her to others, since it is His Gift.

True, there have been some rather odd expressions of devotion to her over the years; sometimes she has been so magnified that she has ended up as something neither quite God, nor recognisably human. It is only right to admit this - but, this does not change the fact, if it is a fact at all, that it is perfectly legitimate for a Christian to be devoted to her.

Many Christians who have little time for Mary, for just the reasons you mention, are very devoted to the Bible. As they should be. Yet they don’t confuse a book, with the Living God. Even though it is a holy book, inspired and sacred & witnessing to Christ. So with us: Mary witnesses to Christ - like the Bible, like the rest of the created world. And if devotion to the Bible does not interfere with devotion to Christ (& why should it ?) - why should, or must, devotion to Mary do so ?

As for the names: appreciation of Mary takes time - it has to grow organically. It can’t be forced. The names are there, because during the life of the Church, the Church has been living with what she believes. She has had time to see more of it, and to see into it more deeply, than if she had lived with it only a short while. And the more she sees, the more there is to see. These titles, reflect what she has seen and known and experienced of Mary.

Because the life of the Church, is a relationship to Christ, a learning to love what He loves, an appreciation of what He likes, a training in learning about Him. No single sort of knowledge on earth is adequate to say what the Church’s appreciation of Christ is - because it is so many things. And the Church’s appreciation of Mary, is part of her appreciation of Christ; because it is only in Christ, Who is the Supreme Love of the Church, that created things - Mary, the Bible - make sense. IOW, devotion to Mary is, of its nature, always an element in the Church’s Love of Christ: if it is healthy. Outside Christ, it becomes anything but healthy; we have to have Christ, if we are to love properly. And the more possessed by Christ the Church is, the better she is able to love Him and His works. Including Mary. ##
 
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edwinG:
Hi Pug,
Yes he did, fully. He wept over Jerusalem
…
In wisdom, and obedience to Christ ,love everyone and hate the sin
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EdwinG,

In part, I agree. Jesus would have died for any of us, and that is love. Also, his love for each of us is full, because Jesus wouldn’t have a part-love. He is too good for that.

But I think about the “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” passages, like rom9:13, or in mal. Jacob received more blessing and more “love” from God. Perhaps Mary is like Jacob and got more. She is “blessed among women”, and thus a bit different or more blessed.

I agree, we should not distinguish a person out and not love them. That would be very wrong, and it could scare people away from being Christian.

However, I think we should call Mary blessed compared to others. We should call her so because the Almighty has in fact done great things for her. (from in Luke1:49).

I’m not fully sure what I think it means about God’s love and Him having given someone more than someone else.
 
I am sure the Holy Spirit loves Mary, although she does not need Him to lead her to Christ as she is in heaven, resting.
I don’t think you recognize the fact that the Holy Spirit is the SPOUSE of Mary. Gabriel told Mary that the Holy Spirit would come upon her and the power of God would overshadow her (remember the Glory of God “overshadowed” the tent where the arc resided in the desert. Mary is the “Arc of the new covenant” and is overshadowed in the same way to show us the powerful relationship Mary has with the Holy Spirit (her SPOUSE) and God the Son. The angel also told Joseph not to fear, that the child within Mary was of the Holy Spirit.

She needs noone to “lead her to Christ”. She is not "resting in heaven, but busy leading as many souls as she can to her Son.

She lead me back to Christ 5 1/2 years ago. I will forever be grateful for her intervention. That is her mission–to show us the way TO Christ, NOT to take anything from Him.

Lindalou:amen:
 
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edwinG:
Hi lost and found,
Where do you see the Holy Spirit, whose work is to lead us to Jesus? As He lives in us what do you think He is doing?
Walk in love
edwinG
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Hi Edwin, surely you love more than one person in your life. Does loving your wife and your daughter need to be mutually exclusive? Does loving one leave less love for the other? Or does looking at your daughter inspire you to love her mother even more? Well it’s a similar argument. Only difference is, Mary is not God, and the Holy Spirit is.
I ask the Holy Spirit every morning for His gifts: Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Right Judgement, Courage, Reverence, and Wonder and Awe. These, in the sense of how to live my life and how the good Lord made me. Occasionally at night I will think back at some poor decisions I made during the day, and be shocked to realize I was distracted and missed my morning prayer. No wonder.
The Hail Marys came first, and then more awareness with the Holy Spirit. Not vice versa! But sorry, the Hail Marys will not go away after that.
 
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Pug:
EdwinG,

In part, I agree. Jesus would have died for any of us, and that is love. Also, his love for each of us is full, because Jesus wouldn’t have a part-love. He is too good for that.

But I think about the “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” passages, like rom9:13, or in mal. Jacob received more blessing and more “love” from God. Perhaps Mary is like Jacob and got more. She is “blessed among women”, and thus a bit different or more blessed.

I agree, we should not distinguish a person out and not love them. That would be very wrong, and it could scare people away from being Christian.

However, I think we should call Mary blessed compared to others. We should call her so because the Almighty has in fact done great things for her. (from in Luke1:49).

I’m not fully sure what I think it means about God’s love and Him having given someone more than someone else.
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with regard to grace, St Thomas Aquinas thinks (thought) that indeed one person could receive greater graces than the next; although all in the same abundance.

The analogy is about the fullness of glasses: one glass can hold 200 ml while the other 400 ml. To be full, one has to be filled with 200 ml of water and the other 400 ml of water. There is no point in giving both glasses equal portions of water (i.e. giving 400 ml each).
 
Lost&Found:
Hi Edwin, surely you love more than one person in your life. Does loving your wife and your daughter need to be mutually exclusive? Does loving one leave less love for the other? Or does looking at your daughter inspire you to love her mother even more? Well it’s a similar argument. Only difference is, Mary is not God, and the Holy Spirit is.
I ask the Holy Spirit every morning for His gifts: Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Right Judgement, Courage, Reverence, and Wonder and Awe. These, in the sense of how to live my life and how the good Lord made me. Occasionally at night I will think back at some poor decisions I made during the day, and be shocked to realize I was distracted and missed my morning prayer. No wonder.
The Hail Marys came first, and then more awareness with the Holy Spirit. Not vice versa! But sorry, the Hail Marys will not go away after that.
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Hi Lost and Found,
My post was about work. Your answer is about love. To progress and learn we need to be talking about the same subject. Can you answer about “work” Originally you spoke about work. Around post 10 ( not sure) you said Mary leads us to Jesus. You spoke about work. I answered about work,saying the work of the Holy Spirit is to lead us to Jesus. So I asked what was the Holy Spirit doing while Mary was leading us to Jesus. Additionally the Holy Spirit lives in us and knows exactly were we are at every moment of every day. Where is Mary? Is she omnipresent also? Christ lives and is maturing in us and the Holy Spirit lives in us. If Mary does not live in us are you saying that Christ and the Holy Spirit are insufficient. Do you believe that each one has his work and one should not be doing the work of another.
Are you saying you need the Hail Marys to activate the Holy Spirit? That means that God wont come to you unless you go to Mary first. Therefore salvation depends on Mary, not on God. Is this what you are saying?
Walk in love
edwinG
 
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Milliardo:
Worsip in Old English usage doesn’t necesaarily mean exclusively worship to God; Shakespeare uses it in his plays, such as a character might say to a maiden; 'I worsip thee". I don’t think Protestants object to Shakespeare’s usage. Similarly, songs such as “Fly Me to the Moon” use the word the same way:

You are all I long for
All I worship and adore

So the use of the word should be seen in context, or in relation to the object it is directed to. Catholic teaching holds that Mary is but a reflection of Christ; all worship should be solely to Him. Therefore, the use of “Worship” in this sense should mean an intense devotion to Mary, not the way one would intend it in revernce to God.
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Hi Milliardo,
If it wasn’t so sad it would be funny.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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mrS4ntA:
St Louis deMontfort said something to the effect of the Holy Ghost finding a soul moulded in the image of Mary more pleasant to reside in and to be formed more fully to what Mary points to - -Christ her Son; because in Mary the Holy Ghost was first pleased to overshadow and from it conceived the Word Incarnate.
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,
Hi mrS4ntA,
Possibly St Louis deMontfort forgot that the Holy Spirit made all souls. What Mr deMontfort is speaking is man’s wisdom and nice mushy sounding words.
The problem with Roman Catholics is that they don’t love Mary enough. If you really loved Mary do you think she would want a part of her Son’s glory, given by God because God wants to honor His Holy Name Jesus Christ. Christ paid with suffering of soul to the point of death and physical suffering of pain unto death and in His obedience to His Fathers will, His father has forever honored His Holy name.
And Catholics downgrade Mary by saying she is the type of person who would cash in on her Son’s glory by the promotion of her name. You are saying she wants her name up there beside His name. Her name is being promoted and you are doing it and saying it is what she wants. You are saying she is the type of woman who wants her name promoted beside her Son’s name. I love Mary the mother of Jesus, the humble lady who was **always in the background. **
You have a Mary who is constantly doing signs and wonders, healing and leading, forever pushing forward, who has her name linked with worship, see the post above. I am telling you, this is the wrong Mary, not Jesus’s mother. IF you really loved Mary the mother of Jesus, you would not accuse her of promoting her name, of doing Jesus’s work of healing, of doing the work of the Holy Spirit by leading. You are accusing her of being an overbearing pushy limelight seeking lady. You have the wrong Mary.

Your love of Mary the mother of our beloved Jesus should recognise the real Mary, humble and in the background as she was portrayed in Holy Scripture.
I pray that you recognise the traits of a sincere mother. And Mary is that, fully beautiful and blessed and we can thank God for her as she rests in Abraham’s busom.
I pray that you recognise that the mary who does signs and miracles in your midst is not the mother of Christ. No true loving mother would bulldoze her honored Son and allow her name to be promoted.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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