Devout Catholic who's not as devout as he thinks

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How would you deal with this? I was talking with a family member earlier this week. We have a mutual friend who, as far as he is concerned, is a paragon of Catholic virtue. He goes to Mass more than anyone he knows–at least once a month, sometimes twice if someone dies (the rest of the time he’s at his wife’s extremely liberal, nondenominational, strip mall worship club). He never eats or drinks during Mass as long as he finishes before coming in the door. He owns a rosary and knows it has something to do with Hail Marys. He’s excited about Pope Francis’ announced plans to allow gay marriage, divorce and women priests. He doesn’t make too much fun of his misguided pro-life friends. He puts up a Christmas tree and Nativity Scene each year, even though he encourages his kids to celebrate whichever holiday they choose because they’re all the same anyway. I could go on and on. The point is, when you talk to him he’s very sincere about his belief that he’s knocking it out of the park when it comes to this whole Catholicism thingy. He backs up a lot of what he says by quoting his favorite blog (I have no idea what it is, he just calls it, “that Catholic blog I read”). He won’t read Catholic books but he will read the occasional, wife-approved Protestant book. This family member is closer to him than I am so they might have better luck swaying some of his opinions, but he’s clueless about how to make any inroads. I’ve suggested trying to get him to go their parish’s Bible study with him or actually reading over some of the weekly emails from their priest to him. Short of being confrontational, which hasn’t had any positive results, I’m not sure how else to get this guy to see the error of some of his ways. The few times I’ve discussed it with him (always online/email, never in person), as soon as I make any firm comments about anything, he drops out of the conversation.
 
More and more of these “devout” Catholics are out there, I contend with several myself. In my experience there are opportunities to have honest conversations over specific issues but most of the time their mind is made up and these conversations just become arguments. I often wish that the CCC was condensed and easier to read as this would be my starting place with “Catholics” like these. However, I have also come to realize that most of the people are doing just what they want and will become very defensive when challenged. Pray, pray pray.
 
Gordon_Sims said:
How would you deal with this? I was talking with a family member earlier this week. We have a mutual friend who, as far as he is concerned, is a paragon of Catholic virtue. He goes to Mass more than anyone he knows–at least once a month, sometimes twice if someone dies (the rest of the time he’s at his wife’s extremely liberal, nondenominational, strip mall worship club). He never eats or drinks during Mass as long as he finishes before coming in the door. He owns a rosary and knows it has something to do with Hail Marys. He’s excited about Pope Francis’ announced plans to allow gay marriage, divorce and women priests. He doesn’t make too much fun of his misguided pro-life friends. He puts up a Christmas tree and Nativity Scene each year, even though he encourages his kids to celebrate whichever holiday they choose because they’re all the same anyway. I could go on and on. The point is, when you talk to him he’s very sincere about his belief that he’s knocking it out of the park when it comes to this whole Catholicism thingy. He backs up a lot of what he says by quoting his favorite blog (I have no idea what it is, he just calls it, “that Catholic blog I read”). He won’t read Catholic books but he will read the occasional, wife-approved Protestant book. This family member is closer to him than I am so they might have better luck swaying some of his opinions, but he’s clueless about how to make any inroads. I’ve suggested trying to get him to go their parish’s Bible study with him or actually reading over some of the weekly emails from their priest to him. Short of being confrontational, which hasn’t had any positive results,** I’m not sure how else to get this guy to see the error of some of his ways**. The few times I’ve discussed it with him (always online/email, never in person), as soon as I make any firm comments about anything, he drops out of the conversation.
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Most of the time you can’t convert family members. They just don’t see you as an authority and dismiss what you say. All you can do is pray, pray, pray for God to send someone into his life that he will listen to. Gently correct inaccurate statements he makes, even if you know he’ll ignore you, maybe suggest other web sites or books he might be interested in. But mostly pray.
 
About all you can do is (1) pray for him, and (2) set a good example. Is there any chance you could get him to attend Mass with you?
 
Gordon_Sims said:
How would you deal with this? I was talking with a family member earlier this week. We have a mutual friend who, as far as he is concerned, is a paragon of Catholic virtue. He goes to Mass more than anyone he knows–at least once a month, sometimes twice if someone dies (the rest of the time he’s at his wife’s extremely liberal, nondenominational, strip mall worship club). He never eats or drinks during Mass as long as he finishes before coming in the door. He owns a rosary and knows it has something to do with Hail Marys. He’s excited about Pope Francis’ announced plans to allow gay marriage, divorce and women priests. He doesn’t make too much fun of his misguided pro-life friends. He puts up a Christmas tree and Nativity Scene each year, even though he encourages his kids to celebrate whichever holiday they choose because they’re all the same anyway. I could go on and on. The point is, when you talk to him he’s very sincere about his belief that he’s knocking it out of the park when it comes to this whole Catholicism thingy. He backs up a lot of what he says by quoting his favorite blog (I have no idea what it is, he just calls it, “that Catholic blog I read”). He won’t read Catholic books but he will read the occasional, wife-approved Protestant book. This family member is closer to him than I am so they might have better luck swaying some of his opinions, but he’s clueless about how to make any inroads. I’ve suggested trying to get him to go their parish’s Bible study with him or actually reading over some of the weekly emails from their priest to him. Short of being confrontational, which hasn’t had any positive results, I’m not sure how else to get this guy to see the error of some of his ways. The few times I’ve discussed it with him (always online/email, never in person), as soon as I make any firm comments about anything, he drops out of the conversation.
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If you are going to approach him, go armed with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

However, I’d say that if he’s a family member, probably best to just leave him alone, change the subject, and talk about something neutral, not related to religion.

It’s just that I doubt you will change him, or him, you. So, why bother ruining family relationships?
 
Gordon_Sims said:
How would you deal with this? I was talking with a family member earlier this week. We have a mutual friend who, as far as he is concerned, is a paragon of Catholic virtue. He goes to Mass more than anyone he knows–at least once a month, sometimes twice if someone dies (the rest of the time he’s at his wife’s extremely liberal, nondenominational, strip mall worship club). He never eats or drinks during Mass as long as he finishes before coming in the door. He owns a rosary and knows it has something to do with Hail Marys. He’s excited about Pope Francis’ announced plans to allow gay marriage, divorce and women priests. He doesn’t make too much fun of his misguided pro-life friends. He puts up a Christmas tree and Nativity Scene each year, even though he encourages his kids to celebrate whichever holiday they choose because they’re all the same anyway. I could go on and on. The point is, when you talk to him he’s very sincere about his belief that he’s knocking it out of the park when it comes to this whole Catholicism thingy. He backs up a lot of what he says by quoting his favorite blog (I have no idea what it is, he just calls it, “that Catholic blog I read”). He won’t read Catholic books but he will read the occasional, wife-approved Protestant book. This family member is closer to him than I am so they might have better luck swaying some of his opinions, but he’s clueless about how to make any inroads. I’ve suggested trying to get him to go their parish’s Bible study with him or actually reading over some of the weekly emails from their priest to him. Short of being confrontational, which hasn’t had any positive results, I’m not sure how else to get this guy to see the error of some of his ways. The few times I’ve discussed it with him (always online/email, never in person), as soon as I make any firm comments about anything, he drops out of the conversation.
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there is nothing you can do but pray for him and let it go. Eventually he will have to answer to God and not you. Going to Mass once a month is not a devout Catholic so I don’t get the “devout” designation.
 
robwar said:
there is nothing you can do but pray for him and let it go. Eventually he will have to answer to God and not you. Going to Mass once a month is not a devout Catholic so I don’t get the “devout” designation.
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That’s kind of the point of his post. How to we approach these people who -think- they’re devout, when they’re really about as far from devout as you can get?
 
seagal said:
Most of the time you can’t convert family members. They just don’t see you as an authority and dismiss what you say. All you can do is pray, pray, pray for God to send someone into his life that he will listen to. Gently correct inaccurate statements he makes, even if you know he’ll ignore you, maybe suggest other web sites or books he might be interested in. But mostly pray.
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He’s not a family member, just a friend. My family member is the one who is closer to this guy and more personally invested in swaying his views. Everything I’ve tried falls flat. We had a talk about Confession once and when I told him that this, that and the other are mortal sins and that we’re required to go to Confession before receiving the Eucharist if we’re in a state of sin he said, “Oh, you don’t really believe that, do you?” That’s a pretty common answer from him, which he follows up by saying that the Church did away with whatever we’re talking about. I tried to get him to read Catholicism for Dummies (he won’t even consider the CCC but he loves the Dummies books), but he turned it down because his wife vetoed it. He’ll post articles on Facebook occasionally that talk about things Pope Francis allegedly said. When I respond with articles that debunk his he tells me that if the Vatican’s version (or whoever’s) was true, CNN or whoever wouldn’t have put up their story. I tend to give up on him for extended periods of time since it always seems like I’m spinning my wheels with him. Even when he acknowledges that what I’m saying is true, or likely true, he generally dismisses it because he doesn’t have time for it, or because he needs to verify with “his sources,” which typically means his anti-Catholic wife or whatever liberal blog it is he always mentions. If my family member didn’t keep pestering me about him, I’d probably have given up on him long ago.
 
Gordon_Sims said:
He’s not a family member, just a friend. My family member is the one who is closer to this guy and more personally invested in swaying his views. Everything I’ve tried falls flat. We had a talk about Confession once and when I told him that this, that and the other are mortal sins and that we’re required to go to Confession before receiving the Eucharist if we’re in a state of sin he said, “Oh, you don’t really believe that, do you?” That’s a pretty common answer from him, which he follows up by saying that the Church did away with whatever we’re talking about. I tried to get him to read Catholicism for Dummies (he won’t even consider the CCC but he loves the Dummies books), but he turned it down because his wife vetoed it. He’ll post articles on Facebook occasionally that talk about things Pope Francis allegedly said. When I respond with articles that debunk his he tells me that if the Vatican’s version (or whoever’s) was true, CNN or whoever wouldn’t have put up their story. I tend to give up on him for extended periods of time since it always seems like I’m spinning my wheels with him. Even when he acknowledges that what I’m saying is true, or likely true, he generally dismisses it because he doesn’t have time for it, or because he needs to verify with “his sources,” which typically means his anti-Catholic wife or whatever liberal blog it is he always mentions. If my family member didn’t keep pestering me about him, I’d probably have given up on him long ago.
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I’d say to leave him alone. I have rarely had anyone sway me by nagging. I was away from the church for about 10 years. What had the most impact on bringing me back was NOT nagging. Inviting me, sometimes helped, but mainly that they lived their life, by example. They…said grace, went to church, but most of all LIVED their faith.

THAT, to me, is the MOST persuasive of all. Even if he doesn´t live his faith, live yours. If anything will bring him around, it would be that, in my opinion.

I know that it’s what I find MOST persuasive, as well, even for myself. People can spout off about the Bible, but if their chronic interactions are nagging, abusive, I do NOT find that persuasive. In fact, I find it a huge turn off.

Sometimes, it is sort of like by first accepting him, where he is right now, WITHOUT trying to change him, that you have more power to persuade him.

First, ACCEPT him as he is, warts and all.

I’d say NOT to try to change him. When he sees you are not out to convert him, he might actually listen to what you have to say.

It acts almost like a kind of reverse psychology. It’s sort of like the advice someone gave me on dealing with teenagers. He said they like to be contrary, so instead of telling them to go to bed early, brush their teeth, not drink, not smoke, he suggested saying to them, “Smoke! Drink! Stay up late!”

lol

Indeed, I can actually see his point. It actually might work!
 
I resume the man is a cradle Catholic, and maybe he hasn’t given much thought to his faith over the years. Coupled with having a wife who is anti-Catholic, and you can see how he might think he is being a good Catholic.

I think those of us who post on a Catholic forum are not really representative of the majority of self-defining Catholics. When all’s said and done, all you can do is gently put your view forward. At least he professes a faith, which is more than many millions of people do.
 
I really think if everybody stopped pestering him to change, he might one day, with it being HIS idea (NOT someone else’s), surprise everyone and change.
 
It’s like with my losing weight. Times people have nagged me about it, I have generally dug in my heels, wanted to go to the refrigerator, if nothing else to eat to comfort myself.

When people have accepted me, first, said they are okay with me, exactly how I am, weight and all, whether I lose weight or not, then if I decide, on my own, to lose weight, it becomes MY decision, MY idea. I don´t know why that is important, but sometimes, it is.

I like to feel the person accepts me, 100% as I am, first.

If they can pass that test, sometimes I’ve changed for people, but for me, acceptance of me seems to be more or less a prerequisite.

I would suggest accepting him, as he is.

Sometimes, it is in yielding, surrendering, that we come into our own power, if it will be there, to change someone. It is often in NOT trying to change someone, that suddenly, we can, mainly through our example.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
That’s kind of the point of his post. How to we approach these people who -think- they’re devout, when they’re really about as far from devout as you can get?
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Honestly, there is nothing you can do. Someone that goes once a month isn’t devout even if they are calling themselves that. I think the only thing one can point out is have them try to explain why going to Mass once a month makes one a devout Catholic. He will probably say based on what has been given here is that he believes in God and goes with his non-Catholic wife and what really matters is what he believes in his heart. Telling someone like this that they are wrong which is true isn’t going to help them be better Catholics. Listening to his logic for the once a month attendance and then maybe trying to redirect it back to reality may plant the seed of truth in people like this. Questions like this come up all the time on CAF which what to do with friends and family that are not really true to the faith like they either think they are or should be. There is no magic wand here that if someone says this or that, the other person is going to suddenly wake up and say “yes you are right and I am wrong thank-you for hitting me in the face with truth”. I think a simple type discussion on attendance which listens to him more than tells him to attend might be the way to go and keeps the door open than closing it with telling him he isn’t devout.
 
Gordon_Sims said:
How would you deal with this? I was talking with a family member earlier this week. We have a mutual friend who, as far as he is concerned, is a paragon of Catholic virtue. He goes to Mass more than anyone he knows–at least once a month, sometimes twice if someone dies (the rest of the time he’s at his wife’s extremely liberal, nondenominational, strip mall worship club). He never eats or drinks during Mass as long as he finishes before coming in the door. He owns a rosary and knows it has something to do with Hail Marys. He’s excited about Pope Francis’ announced plans to allow gay marriage, divorce and women priests. He doesn’t make too much fun of his misguided pro-life friends. He puts up a Christmas tree and Nativity Scene each year, even though he encourages his kids to celebrate whichever holiday they choose because they’re all the same anyway. I could go on and on. The point is, when you talk to him he’s very sincere about his belief that he’s knocking it out of the park when it comes to this whole Catholicism thingy. He backs up a lot of what he says by quoting his favorite blog (I have no idea what it is, he just calls it, “that Catholic blog I read”). He won’t read Catholic books but he will read the occasional, wife-approved Protestant book. This family member is closer to him than I am so they might have better luck swaying some of his opinions, but he’s clueless about how to make any inroads. I’ve suggested trying to get him to go their parish’s Bible study with him or actually reading over some of the weekly emails from their priest to him. Short of being confrontational, which hasn’t had any positive results, I’m not sure how else to get this guy to see the error of some of his ways. The few times I’ve discussed it with him (always online/email, never in person), as soon as I make any firm comments about anything, he drops out of the conversation.
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I wonder what his reaction would be to the fact missing one mass on a Sunday or HDO is grave matter and if done with full knowledge and full consent is a mortal sin. Or the fact that anyone who procures an abortion, directly pays for one, advises one, etc if the abortion goes through is automatically excommunicated or the fact that reading a book like Luther’s teachings are so serious that in the past it could get you excommunicated(I think it’s still a mortal sin
 
Once again, your “friends” have issues. 🤷
You are not responsible for casual acquaintances.
It’s not really your place to have an opinion whatsoever.
If he asks you about the faith, fine. Be prepared with good info and the number of the nearest Spiritual Director.
But beyond that, I see little merit into peering into someone else’s soul.
Shoe him how charitable a devout Catholic can be, and let it go.
 
cena said:
I wonder what his reaction would be to the fact missing one mass on a Sunday or HDO is grave matter and if done with full knowledge and full consent is a mortal sin. Or the fact that anyone who procures an abortion, directly pays for one, advises one, etc if the abortion goes through is automatically excommunicated or the fact that reading a book like Luther’s teachings are so serious that in the past it could get you excommunicated(I think it’s still a mortal sin
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“That’s not a sin. Why would you even think that? The Church has never taught that. What commandment does it break? None!” Pretty much an exact quote. That was one of the last big face-to-face discussions I had with him along these lines. I sent him all sorts of links afterward to back up what I told him so he’s now at least had that explained to him fully.
 
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