Dewman LDS Blood Atonement doctrine

[Paul_G]

Continued…
In contrast, when five hundred men in the Caldwell County (Mormon) militia later took the offensive in response to two months of unrelenting violence and depredations, there was nothing secretive about it. In mid-October, with supplies running low, they left defensive positions to forage and to punish enemies—a very public effort to improve security by preemptive forays. Two weeks later, facing increasing numbers of volunteers and a militia emboldened by the governor´s Extermination Order, they surrendered their arms in defeat.

The reality, then, behind the supposed secretive, lawless Danites of legend was this renegade band formed briefly in 1838 in the midst of war. There is no evidence of any such band later, and even in 1838, the Latter-day Saint community as a whole did not deserve blame for the unauthorized actions of a few. As Parley P. Pratt, an apostle, wrote to his family after hearing Avard´s court testimony, “They accuse us of things that never entered into our hearts.” From Liberty Jail on December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith summarized the situation as he then understood it: “We have learned also since we have been in prison that many false and pernicious things which were calculated to lead the saints far astray and to do great injury have been taught by Dr. Avard as coming from the Presidency…which the presidency never knew of being taught in the church by any body untill after they were made prisoners…the presidency were ignorant as well as innocent of these things” (PWJS, p. 380).

Unfortunately, in an age when Latter-day Saints were hated and persecuted, Avard´s story provided a ready explanation for anyone who wanted to believe the worst. The reality was far less sensational.

DAVID J. WHITTAKER

Bibliography
Cornwall, Rebecca Foster, and Leonard J. Arrington. “Perpetuation of a Myth: Mormon Danites in Five Western Novels, 1840–90.” BYU Studies 23 (Spring 1983):147–65.

Document Containing the Correspondence, Orders, Etc. in Relation to the Disturbances with the Mormons; and the Evidence Given before the Hon. Austin A. King. Fayette, Mo., 1841.

Gentry, Leland H. “The Danite Band of 1838.” BYU Studies 14 (Summer 1974):421–50.

Jessee, Dean C., and David J. Whittaker, eds. “The Last Months of Mormonism in Missouri: The Albert Perry Rockwood Journal.” BYU Studies 28 (Winter 1988):5–41.

, David J. “The Book of Daniel in Early Mormon Thought.” In By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, Vol. 1, pp. 155–201. Salt Lake City, 1990.

 

[majick275]

Given that the LDS church has in the past been quick to discipline BYU history professors who weren’t faith promoting I hardly think that very objective. The bibliography you included certainly doesn’t contain anything that appears to meet your requirement for church materials. Were any of those authors ever permitted to enter the vaults and view source materials? I don’t think I used Avard as a reference on any of my posts and they only appear to discredit his account.

 

[Paul_G]

I noticed here only juicy quotes that support the argument of the so called “blood atonement” and not other quotes that explain what they mean are posted. With the research that has been carried out to discover these passages I’m sure it would be just as easy to find their explanations which which would put their ideas into context. However, this most certainly was the rhetoric of the time, but the tests, or real proof of the assertions about “blood atonement” are the documents that report that approved action from the first presidency was carried out…

The teaching of one having to shed their own blood was rhetorical in nature finding its source in the Old Testament. However, this principle can only operate in a day, as that of Moses. Of conditions in our day, and as to how this law applies to us, President Joseph Fielding Smith, in addition to the DOS quote posted above says,* “We cannot destroy men in the flesh, because we do not control the lives of men and do not have power to pass sentences upon them which involve capital punishment. In the days when there was a theocracy on the earth, then this decree was enforced. What the Lord will do in lieu of this, because we cannot destroy in the flesh, I am unable to say, but it will have to be made up in some other way.” *(Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p. 97.)

 

[majick275]

and yet we have given legal documents and while Jospeh Fieldign Smith may not have been “practicing” it the earlier ones sure appeared to have been. That is certainly the opinion of those hisorians who had access to the original documents. If all you can do is give unfounded accusations (like William Law starting his own church at age 78 with NO supporting documents) then you have little credibility. At least you’ve finally admitted it was taught as a doctrine. Do a little research yourself then and perhaps you’ll see for yourself where/when it was practiced. I await your own research and postings until then.

 

[Paul_G]

majick275:

and yet we have given legal documents and while Jospeh Fieldign Smith may not have been “practicing” it the earlier ones sure appeared to have been.

Sorry all there is here is rhetoric tying to curb a serious problem of the time. A quote from the JOD was offer to suggest that JF Smith practiced “blood atonement”, I offered another one from the JOD that show his beliefs on how this “Old Testament Doctrine” not a” new one” was practiced, and how it applies to us today.

That is certainly the opinion of those hisorians who had access to the original documents. If all you can do is give unfounded accusations (like William Law starting his own church at age 78 with NO supporting documents) then you have little credibility. At least you’ve finally admitted it was taught as a doctrine. Do a little research yourself then and perhaps you’ll see for yourself where/when it was practiced. I await your own research and postings until then.

This historian has been reviewed and found wanting in his scholarship. Who knows whey Dr. Quinn changed from legitimate scholar to Gay and Lesbian apologist, but it appears that his motives in manipulating those documents that you speak of has become quite clear.

William Law was not always 78 year of age. As one of the people behind the Nauvoo Expositor, he did just as I said. As far as producing documentation, this is a “blood atonement” thread and I have produce documents in support of this. If you want to talk about William Law start a new thread. I do not have the time to go willy nilly in all directions. Lets have a focused discussion here please, or close this one and move on to the next.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Brigham’s Destroying Angel: Being the Life, Confession, and Startling Disclosures of the Notorious Bill Hickman, The Danite Chief of Utah. In this book, Bill Hickman alleged that he had committed murders by the orders of Brigham Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon Church, and Apostle Orson Hyde. The appearance of the book was not impressive. It was a rather cheap looking paperback book which was edited by J. H. Beadle. Since we did not know whether we could trust either Hickman or Beadle, we dismissed the book as possibly a work of fiction and felt that it was not anything we could rely on.
We had, of course, heard of the Mormon doctrine of “blood atonement”–i.e., the teaching that certain sins can only be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner’s own blood. This doctrine was explained by Brigham Young in a discourse given September 21, 1856:

xmission.com/~country/reason/hicklhm.htm

 

[Paul_G]

Daniel Marsh:

Brigham’s Destroying Angel: Being the Life, Confession, and Startling Disclosures of the Notorious Bill Hickman, The Danite Chief of Utah. In this book, Bill Hickman alleged that he had committed murders by the orders of Brigham Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon Church, and Apostle Orson Hyde. The appearance of the book was not impressive. It was a rather cheap looking paperback book which was edited by J. H. Beadle. Since we did not know whether we could trust either Hickman or Beadle, we dismissed the book as possibly a work of fiction and felt that it was not anything we could rely on.
We had, of course, heard of the Mormon doctrine of “blood atonement”–i.e., the teaching that certain sins can only be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner’s own blood. This doctrine was explained by Brigham Young in a discourse given September 21, 1856:

xmission.com/~country/reason/hicklhm.htm

I think this Utah myth is related to our topic so I will endeavour to make some comments, perhaps later on tonight.

 

[majick275]

Paul G:

Sorry all there is here is rhetoric tying to curb a serious problem of the time. A quote from the JOD was offer to suggest that JF Smith practiced “blood atonement”, I offered another one from the JOD that show his beliefs on how this “Old Testament Doctrine” not a” new one” was practiced, and how it applies to us today.

Where did you quote the JoD? You quoted Joseph Fielding Smith from Doctrines of Salvation. In any case, How is this just rhetoric when we know folks were killed and we have testimony of Federal Marshalls that they couldn’t make any headway in their investigations because of intereference from the church.
Paul G:

This historian has been reviewed and found wanting in his scholarship. Who knows whey Dr. Quinn changed from legitimate scholar to Gay and Lesbian apologist, but it appears that his motives in manipulating those documents that you speak of has become quite clear.

found wanting? where? how? his books are well supported by a myriad of easily verifiable facts. Now you want to throw out the ad hominem of Gay and Lesbian apologist? Please show how that remark affects any of his works. How about Bushman, Compton, Andersen or any of the other BYU professors who share these conclusions?
Paul G:

William Law was not always 78 year of age. As one of the people behind the Nauvoo Expositor, he did just as I said. As far as producing documentation, this is a “blood atonement” thread and I have produce documents in support of this. If you want to talk about William Law start a new thread. I do not have the time to go willy nilly in all directions. Lets have a focused discussion here please, or close this one and move on to the next.

Ah but I did not quote form the expositor. I used his remarks form the interview he gave at 78. Where was he trying to start his own church in Nauvoo though? I apologize for the “shotgun” approach but to discusss blood atonement we have to deal with the leadership structure of the early LDS church and their “layered” doctrines. (some public, some private and some that were publicly denied but privagtely practiced) It is obviously different than the present LDS leadership model. So far the only documents that you have produced are Bruce R. Mconkie’s denial and Joseph Fielding Smith (who taught the doctrine by the way) claiming it isn’t practiced…YET. I have refuted both and Mconkie is notorious for inserting his personal opinions as doctrine and has as a result been forced to recant later on various issues.

Bottom line is, the LDS church doesn’t actively teach blood atonement now. They did as late as the 60’s but only as a doctrine not a practice. (like polygamy post-manifesto) The LDS church does not now practice blood atonement nor do they appear to have done so at any time after Brigham Young died. I believe the evidence shows that did they practice this during the presidencies of both Jospeh Smith Jr. and Brigham Young. The extent of this practice will probably never be known as it was kept secret initially and covered up later.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Brigham Young said, October 9, 1852: “What shall be done with the sheep that stink the flock so? We will take them, I was going to say, and cut off their tails two inches behind their ears; however I will use a milder term, and say cut off their ears.” Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 213.

Brigham again said, March 27, 1853: “I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my bowie knife, and conquer or die. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be pur to the line and righteousness to the plummet. If you say it is all right, raise your hands (all hands up). Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this and every good work.” Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 83.

President Brigham Young preached, February 8, 1857, as follows: “All mankind love themselves; and let these principles be known by an individual and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves even to an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of blood” Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant. He never told a man or woman to love their enemies in their wickedness. He never intended any such thing.

I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance in the last resurrection if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled upon the ground, as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels of the devil, until our elder brother, Jesus Christ, raises them up, conquers death, hell and the grave. I have known a great many men who have left this church, for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation; but if their blood had been spilt it would have been better for them. The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force.

This is loving our neighbor as ourselves, if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood upon the ground in order that he may be saved, spill it." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, page 220, or Desert News, Vol. 6, page 397.

Elder Orson Hyde said, April .9, 1853: “Suppose the shepherd should discover a wolf approaching the flock, what would he be likely to do? Why, we would suppose, if the wolf was within proper distance,[page 107] that he would kill him at once-kill him on the spot. It would have a tendency to place a terror on those who leave these parts, that may prove their salvation when they see the heads of thieves taken off, or shot down before the public.” Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pages 72, 73.

President J. M. Grant said, Sept. 21, 1856: “I say there are men and women here that I would advise to go to the president immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case, and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood.” Desert Vol. 7, page 235.

President Heber C. Kimball said, July 19, 1854: “It is believed in the world that our females are all common women. Well, in one sense they are common-that is, they are like all other women, I suppose, but then- are not unclean, for we wipe all unclean ones out of our midst; we not only wipe them from our streets, but we wipe them out of existence. And if the world wants to practice uncleanness, and bring their prostitutes here, if they do not repent and forsake their sins, we will wipe the evil out. We will not have them in this valley unless they repent, for so help me God, while I live I will lend my hand to wipe such persons out, and I know this people will.” Desert News, August 15, 1854, and Mill. Star, Vol. 16, pages 738-9.

Fanny Stenhouse: “There was the murder of the Aikin party-six persons-who were killed on their way to California. The same year a man named Yates was killed under atrocious circumstances; and Franklin McNeil, who had sued Brigham for false imprisonment and who was killed at his hotel door. There was Sergeant Pile, and there was Arnold and Drown. There was Price and William Bryan at Fairfield; there was Almon Babbitt, and Brassfield, and Dr. Robinson; there was also James Cowdy and his wife and child, and Margetts and his wife; and many another, too, to say nothing of that frightful murder at the Mountain Meadows.” “Tell-It-All,” page 319.

We could fill a volume with the history of the murders that have stained and scarred the Mormon Church, both in Missouri, Illinois, Utah and elsewhere, the history of which has made Mormonism a stench in the nostrils of civilization, and as one has said, has made Utah a land of assassination and a field of blood.

biblebelievers.net/Cults/Mormonism/FortyYears/kjcfor06.htm

 

[Paul_G]

Daniel Marsh:

Brigham Young said, October 9, 1852: “What shall be done with the sheep that stink the flock so? We will take them, I was going to say, and cut off their tails two inches behind their ears; however I will use a milder term, and say cut off their ears.” Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 213.

I have been a little under the whether the last few days. I am not going to discuss all the quotes you have listed here at once. Perhaps we could do them one at a time. The first one quoted is JOD vol 1 p 213. I’m not sure why you listed this one. Could you tell me what you believe is being said here.

 

[Paul_G]

Here is the continuation of BY’s thought in the above quote:

What shall be done with sheep that stink the flock so? We will take them, I was going to say, and cut off their tails two inches behind their ears; however, I will use a milder term, and say, cut off their ears. But instead of doing this, we will try to cleanse them; we will wash them with soap, that will come well nigh taking off the sin; we will then apply a little Scotch snuff, and a little tobacco, and wash them again until we make them clean. That is what I am doing now. Peradventure we shall find a few such sheep here in the flock, and a few that have got the itch; these are apt to spread the disease among those that are clean, for they will run along and rub themselves on others, until all are smitten with the disorder, and it would be hard to tell in which it originated. I do not want to destroy the people. I want to wash them, and, if necessary, apply the Scotch snuff. (Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, Pg.213 - Pg.214, Brigham Young, October 9, 1852)