DH is not Catholic & engages in porn

[The_Bucket]

The early Christians lived in a corrupt pagan world where all around them they had but to look to see immoral sights, much more so than in our day, when mostly one has to own a computer, switch it on, find the site etc etc. much more deliberate sin here obviously.

Honestly, I disagree. You had to go into public to go see immoral sights like gladiator fights or be invited to sex parties. Not terribly different today on the latter front. You have to seek stuff like that out. But just switch on the TV to the local news and you’re interrupted with sexualized commercials. Flip on the computer and in ONE CLICK you’re immediately there. And no one is there to see your sin besides God.

You have to go out of your way to avoid it in your own homes these days. Far different from late antiquity and certainly different from the Middle Ages.

 

[alphawoman]

Thanks alphawoman for asking and contributing that comment above regarding the gravity of adultery. I have replied to Gorgias and am sorry if anyone took my words to imply anything to do with annulment, I did not even think it was implied in what I said

As we all know, Catholic marriage is indissoluble and one can only separate for a fixed time from a troublesome spouse (with the permission of the Church) until the situation hopefully rectifies. In difficult cases, extensions are granted or something like a semi-permanent situation evolves if the offending spouse refuses to co-operate or are a danger to the other etc etc.

I tend to rate those who ‘jump ship’ when they discover this gross infidelity as responding to a true instinct that knows without understanding or knowledge that the ‘bond’ is broken, in heaven and on earth.

Dee, I’m enjoying your points. I think we’re of a similar mind.

Perhaps I jumped to include annulment in your discussion of separation because, in my particular case, my husband’s porn use preceded and coincided with our wedding and marriage prep. So, the timing combined with an element of deliberate concealment that could theoretically provide grounds for annulment, analogous to the case of in-person adultery preceding marriage.

Re: lustful viewing of others, the line is fine between casual appreciation and lust. Frankly, I think Bucket is right that the temptation is strong for most individuals, not just men.

 

[alphawoman]

I don’t think pornography and self-abuse is as grave a betrayal as actual adultery with a third party.

Thankfully I can only speak theoretically on physical adultery with another person. I think the underlying moral abandonment of the spouse and family of the adulterer is the same in both cases. The adulterer is, by association, saying that the marital covenant and family are worthless, to be discarded on a whim.

I agree that the specificity of physical adultery–singling out a particular alternate “mate”–makes it more egregious. It adds the element that the adulterer is “willing” to have children, on some level, with another. This obviously doesn’t even touch on the associated health risks to all parties.

Bucket, you make an interesting point about Catholcs lacking understanding of the gravity of sexual sins. While this may be true in some cases, it seems that most people are playing fast and loose with Church teachings on masturbation, pornography, IVF, contraception…etc. by applying secular, subjective definitions to Catholic concepts. It’s an issue of justifying a behavior that they feel entitled to and then trying to make Catholic values bend to their whims. The Church calls us to see the underlying principle–love–and then look to Cstholicism for acceptable outlets of love.

 

[alphawoman]

I don’t think pornography and self-abuse is as grave a betrayal as actual adultery with a third party.

Thankfully I can only speak theoretically on physical adultery with another person. I think the underlying moral abandonment of the spouse and family of the adulterer is the same in both cases. The adulterer is, by association, saying that the marital covenant and family are worthless, to be discarded on a whim.

I agree that the specificity of physical adultery–singling out a particular alternate “mate”–makes it more egregious. It adds the element that the adulterer is “willing” to have children, on some level, with another. This obviously doesn’t even touch on the associated health risks to all parties.

Bucket, you make an interesting point about Catholcs lacking understanding of the gravity of sexual sins. While this may be true in some cases, it seems that most people are playing fast and loose with Church teachings on masturbation, pornography, IVF, contraception…etc. by applying secular, subjective definitions to Catholic concepts. It’s an issue of justifying a behavior that they feel entitled to and then trying to make Catholic values bend to their whims. The Church calls us to see the underlying principle–love–and then look to Cstholicism for acceptable outlets of love.

 

[The_Bucket]

Thankfully I can only speak theoretically on physical adultery with another person. I think the underlying moral abandonment of the spouse and family of the adulterer is the same in both cases. The adulterer is, by association, saying that the marital covenant and family are worthless, to be discarded on a whim.

I certainly understand how the spouse feels but I should note that, in the case of addicts, there’s some underlying problem with the offender. It’s not an excuse, but I do know that in my own case I was playing with a stacked deck. My father’s been addicted to porn for Lord knows how many decades and, I come to find out as an adult, had several affairs. It basically ruined my entire family and left me crippled emotionally. I “medicated” myself for a long time by following in some of his ways. When I decided I loved the woman that is my wife now, I chucked all that stuff out. But when some major medical and financial stresses hit our lives, it all came roaring back. It had absolutely nothing to do with my wife and everything to do with self-doubt, self-hatred and fear that God had abandoned me.

I am quite fortunate that months ago I was forced to come to a real conversion of the heart and I can say that it literally saved my soul and my marriage. My wife still bears scars from how I hurt her but we’re recovering through Christ together.

Bucket, you make an interesting point about Catholcs lacking understanding of the gravity of sexual sins. While this may be true in some cases, it seems that most people are playing fast and loose with Church teachings on masturbation, pornography, IVF, contraception…etc. by applying secular, subjective definitions to Catholic concepts. It’s an issue of justifying a behavior that they feel entitled to and then trying to make Catholic values bend to their whims. The Church calls us to see the underlying principle–love–and then look to Cstholicism for acceptable outlets of love.

People most certainly lie to themselves. All the time. I lied to myself by saying “well I think this is a habit or an addiction, so the Catechism says there’s less culpability in that case.” Which is actually true but it’s so far from an excuse for not rooting it out it’s not funny. And it certainly didn’t stop it from grievously wounding my wife. That said, I think there really are a lot of people out there who genuinely do not know the Church’s teaching beyond “no sex before marriage.” I doubt you’d find experienced CAF posters in such a position of ignorance, but that’s an extremely tiny slice of the Catholic community.

 

[Dee_S]

Dee, I’m enjoying your points. I think we’re of a similar mind.

Perhaps I jumped to include annulment in your discussion of separation because, in my particular case, my husband’s porn use preceded and coincided with our wedding and marriage prep. So, the timing combined with an element of deliberate concealment that could theoretically provide grounds for annulment, analogous to the case of in-person adultery preceding marriage.

Re: lustful viewing of others, the line is fine between casual appreciation and lust. Frankly, I think Bucket is right that the temptation is strong for most individuals, not just men.

I’m also enjoying ‘seeing’ inside your mind (well, at least we both appear to have a strong sense of humor - indispensable) Sorry about your DH being such a disappointment and cross by the looks of things. Hope things are better in your life now.

This article is very informative for anyone wanting to understand the bigger picture of the reasons and effect of these two ‘evils’ in society these days.

“As reflections of the dark side of a human nature marred by sin, pornography and the exaltation of violence are age-old realities of the human condition. In the past quarter century, however, they have taken on new dimensions and have become serious social problems. At a time of widespread and unfortunate confusion about moral norms, the communications media have made pornography and violence accessible to a vastly expanded audience, including young people and even children, and a problem which at one time was confined mainly to wealthy countries has now begun, via the communications media, to corrupt moral values in developing nations.”

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR SOCIAL COMMUNICATIONS
PORNOGRAPHY AND VIOLENCE
IN THE COMMUNICATIONS MEDIA:
A PASTORAL RESPONSE
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/pccs/documents/rc_pc_pccs_doc_07051989_pornography_en.html

 

[Dee_S]

Please note that while I don’t think pornography and self-abuse is as grave a betrayal as actual adultery with a third party, that doesn’t mean it’s any less of a mortal sin provided the usual criteria for a mortal sin are fulfilled. The thing is that many people, even Catholics, are not aware that pornography is indeed grave matter. I think everyone knows that cheating with another person is gravely wrong. All the more reason, sadly, that pornography is so pervasive. It’s incredibly deceptive to men and it breeds deception IN men.

Hi, thanks for your very interesting comments. You really do portray the mind-set very well. This ‘mind-set’ or self-delusion is also common to the other grave sins interestingly enough. When serial killers are interviewed, the general response is that it is only the first murder that is difficult - the rest are much easier. Take a look at the way they think and justify what they have done. Must be some faulty wiring somewhere inside us humans, as the capacity we have for self delusion is quite awesome, somehow always reconstructing our realities to suit our inclinations…which leads us to…
The Church, put in place by Our Lord - The seven sacraments, the Mass, the Teaching Magisterium of the Church etc are there to help us on our journey back home to Him.

Jesus did say, “If you love me, keep my commandments”. The true mind-set of a Christian is to love and obey even if we don’t want to or don’t understand why we should.

No-one can really claim ignorance of the commandments, as The Natural Law (conscience) are put by God into every soul that is born. Even the savage in the jungle has this Natural Law in his heart. He knows right from wrong - his conscience tells him that murder is wrong, adultery is wrong, stealing is wrong etc. This is further re-inforced by the society he lives in which also pass laws forbidding these sins.

In my post to alphawoman i posted a quote and link to a vatican article which discusses the drastic effects of the immorality and violence in present day media which is corrupting not only the civilized world, but new and developing countries etc.

So, I must now agree with you in that the temptation to sin in this day and age are unsurpassed in the history of the world.

 

[The_Bucket]

No-one can really claim ignorance of the commandments, as The Natural Law (conscience) are put by God into every soul that is born. Even the savage in the jungle has this Natural Law in his heart. He knows right from wrong - his conscience tells him that murder is wrong, adultery is wrong, stealing is wrong etc. This is further re-inforced by the society he lives in which also pass laws forbidding these sins.

Yeah exactly, but the cultures in which we live provide for all kinds of gray area without strongly formed consciences. After all, there were plenty of cases in history where men had multiples wives or entire congregations of legitimate sexual partners. But it was all out in the open; sexual betrayal is something we all know is wrong at the deepest level. We need the Church and her teachings to understand the deepest truths that God has revealed to the world.

Our capacity for self-delusion is indeed quite strong and I’m definitely proof of that. I thought my sin was not extremely grave and didn’t affect anyone… despite the fact that I saw my father’s sin affect my mother for two decades! I figured I could manage the symptoms as it were better than he could. Well I didn’t totally drive my wife to insanity so I guess that’s a modest improvement and I didn’t go as far as he did in terms of betrayal but that’s precious little consolation now that I realize how far I did indeed go. I weep for my errors, but at least now I don’t shrink from them, deny them or use them as an excuse to continue down that road.

All I can do is take confidence in the fact that God has forgiven me, my wife has forgiven me and God will ALWAYS give us peace if we pray for it because anger is never beneficial for our spiritual development.

 

[Dee_S]

Yeah exactly, but the cultures in which we live provide for all kinds of gray area without strongly formed consciences. After all, there were plenty of cases in history where men had multiples wives or entire congregations of legitimate sexual partners. But it was all out in the open; sexual betrayal is something we all know is wrong at the deepest level. We need the Church and her teachings to understand the deepest truths that God has revealed to the world.

Our capacity for self-delusion is indeed quite strong and I’m definitely proof of that. I thought my sin was not extremely grave and didn’t affect anyone… despite the fact that I saw my father’s sin affect my mother for two decades! I figured I could manage the symptoms as it were better than he could. Well I didn’t totally drive my wife to insanity so I guess that’s a modest improvement and I didn’t go as far as he did in terms of betrayal but that’s precious little consolation now that I realize how far I did indeed go. I weep for my errors, but at least now I don’t shrink from them, deny them or use them as an excuse to continue down that road.

All I can do is take confidence in the fact that God has forgiven me, my wife has forgiven me and God will ALWAYS give us peace if we pray for it because anger is never beneficial for our spiritual development.

What awesome graces were given to you! To have broken that terrible cycle of children repeating the behaviour of their parents, is not at all usual. You are protected in a very special was by the Mother of God, that’s for sure.

It really deserves a round of applause…
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Have you ever read True Devotion to Mary by St Louis de Montfort? If not, take a look - he offers a consecration to Our Lady and a way of life - which is so simple once one gets the idea, that the total freedom from self-absorbtion, scruples, guilt etc etc No more worries about how much one must do or pray to repay or make amends or earn salvation or, or… the heart of it consists in the giving up of what is legitimately ours (our good works and the merits and satisfactions we have earned by them) and handing these over to Mary to do with them what she wants.Trusting that she in return, if we are true to her, will naturally secure our eternal salvation.

It was adopted by none less than St John Paul II (his motto was
Totus Tuus , I am all thine)

The 33 days of preparation for the consecration is life changing and produces an understanding not before experienced. I know this all sounds like words, and another devotion and another act of consecration,…but one realises once done that life is so simple and selfless, never having to concern yourself with working for yr own salvation, because you are now working for her. (I can’t find a bigger smile than that one…)

 

[BillTheSlink]

Please note that while I don’t think pornography and self-abuse is as grave a betrayal as actual adultery with a third party, that doesn’t mean it’s any less of a mortal sin provided the usual criteria for a mortal sin are fulfilled. The thing is that many people, even Catholics, are not aware that pornography is indeed grave matter. I think everyone knows that cheating with another person is gravely wrong. All the more reason, sadly, that pornography is so pervasive. It’s incredibly deceptive to men and it breeds deception IN men.

Actually I would contend that it depends on the circumstances. Let us say you have two fairly young and inexperienced people who only mean to hug and lightly kiss and then all of the sudden the line is crossed into passionate kissing and hands go where they shouldn’t and the next thing you know, without thinking about it, they have engaged in fornication. Now I will say I have crossed that line, but not into fornication, but is was only because the young girl at the time got her whits about her and got us to stop. I don’t think that was as sinful as when night after night, day after day, without any arousal beforehand what so ever, I sneaked off from my family to look at porn for hours and then abused myself. When I was with that girl in my very early 20’s, perhaps 21 or 22, there was something animalistic that kicked in. Something that was as primal as a man dying of thirst coming upon a lake and drinking himself to the point of death when he either died of water intoxication or his stomach busted. There was no thought in the matter nor was it even possible to think. That wasn’t the case with the porn. It was planned out before hand and if I couldn’t get to it I was hell on wheels. Thank goodness that young lady came to herself. Perhaps she realized an out of wedlock pregnancy could have occurred. She didn’t mean for what happened to happen, but of course there are also situations where women do trick men into “turning on” past the point of reason and the adultery or fornication happens. I don’t know if women “turn on” to the point where you can’t reason. I am not a woman so I don’t know. I am proud to say I am 36 and since I have never married have never been sexual with a woman. Unfortunately though there was a short period of time in my teens when I thought I was homosexual and acted out then, but I have confessed it and I still consider myself a virgin because I was just a kid and what happened is actually pretty common among boys according to both my priest and a church counselor I saw for a while and really I don’t think even hard-core gay sex is sex at all because that isn’t what God calls it because he certainly didn’t make it that way. Thankfully I know I am normal now and what happened, happened because of the way I was brought up and because I didn’t have a father figure who both cared for me and I could talk to. I don’t know if I will ever marry though since I do have health issues and because I feel I may have a calling to Opus Dei I am trying to discern, plus right now I am caring for Grandma. Besides, if God has forgotten it and says it never happened why shouldn’t I? I have decided to leave the shame and regret behind and live out my forgiveness.