Dialogue with Muslims

[AdamP88]

Just to respond to the above from 504Katrin: in recent history the forcable removal of 900,000 Palistianians to make Israel “violent” in what it did. If you mean in history in general- the old testament is full of great stories of the Hebrews picking fights. I would particularly point you to Macabees which practically reads like a slasher flick. Gotta love guerilla warfare.

As for dialogue. I was good friends with an Imam before i moved to where i am now. We would meet about once every three weeks. The most important thing we had was respect. It wsa important for both of us to be able to listen to the other. The second thing was that neither was trying to convert the other directly. It was more about understanding one another. Finally, we always had a sense of humor about each other.

If you want to talk to Muslims about Christianity learn about Islam. A Sunni is not a Sufi or a Shi’a. It’s important to know the differences. If a Muslim tried to talk to you as a “generic Christian” you would be confused and probably insulted. Learn the language they speak in. Not Arabic but the kinds of images and hermeneutics they use (which also changes from Sunni to Sufi…ect.) A great book for an Intro to Islam- especially Islamic early history- that is very readable is “No God But God” by Reza Aslan.

Good luck and rember to love your neighbor- even if they don’t love you.

This is the best answer so far…as far as I’m concerned…

 

[Trebor135]

I’m sorry, but how can you compare the admittedly deplorable violence employed by avowed secularist George Habash to the religiously-motivated terrorism directed toward everything non-Muslim in increasingly large swaths of the world?

When did I do that?

Even the Christian right-wing militias in the Lebanese civil war didn’t fight to rid Lebanon of Muslims full stop, but rather of Palestinians, Syrians, and their allies (most of whom happen to be Muslim, sure, but that’s to be expected given the overall demographics of the region).

Indeed. The struggle seems to have been for the Maronites, who typically do not self-identify as Arabs but as descendants of the Phoenicians, to maintain control in one sliver of the Middle East.

By contrast, Islamic radicals are seeking to reshape Egypt, Iraq, Nigeria, etc. religiously, that is to say, to liquidate those countries of all non-Muslims (and Muslims who are not of the dominant sect in a particular country, as in Iraq and now Syria). It’s an entirely different animal than George Habash and his ilk. Scheuer is apparently under the impression that motivation and context don’t amount to anything. See the flags in that video at c.0:20? Those are socialists/secular nationalist Arabs, for whom “Hakim” George Habash is still a hero (as you can tell by the comments on the video, if you dare read Youtube comments…ugh).

Scheuer and I are not talking about the Islamist drive to gain dominance in various parts of Asia and Africa; I for one am outraged by the atrocious treatment that intolerant Wahhabist and Salafist types have been meting out to Christians as of late in Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, and elsewhere. (Which is why all Christians must support televised evangelization work along the lines of that done by Father Zakaria Boutros.) Scheuer and I argue that al-Qa’ida’s attacks on American targets are in retaliation for Washington’s foreign policies, though we also do not discount the Islamists’ religious motivations for the conduct of their so-called “raids”. A state run by the likes of Ayman al-Zawahiri will evidently resemble Afghanistan under the Taliban and south-central Somalia under al-Shabaab far more than social-democratic Scandinavia, but if American support for Arab authoritarian regimes and the state of Israel is fueling the violent hostility of Muslims, the reality must be recognized and responded to as it is.

 

[emarc]

The depiction of all muslims you paint is very simplistic and niave. By that logic all Catholics from Northern Ireland (myself included - having been born and raised there) are terrorists and members of the IRA. Just as some food for thought a few years back there were 3 female suicide bombers in Israel that garnered world wide attention. None were muslim all were christian - something to consider before labeling a whole group.

you are misreading what i wrote. that was from a piece written by an ex-muslim. see his website. what i am asking is what does a christian taught to love his neighbor as himself do when faced w/ a islamic terrorist?

 

[emarc]

Can you cite some verses to back up that claim?

check this site by a group of ex muslims, complete with verses from koran to understand
why they left islam.
faithfreedom.org/articles…laws-of-islam/

 

[dzheremi]

When did I do that?

I’m sorry; that was meant as the general ‘you’. How could a person (in this case the author you’ve quoted who used George Habash as an example of a supposed latent tendency in the Christian minorities to “display greater militancy than the Muslim majority”) make such a comparison, even implicitly. It boggles my mind. The Islamic militants are, after all, Islamic. Their religious motives, while certainly not being the sum of their motivations, are not incidental. Christian militants in the Middle East, by and large, are secularists. Heck, they by and large invented “Arab nationalism” as a secular alternative to the Islamic/theocractic militancy that otherwise flourishes in the region (see: George Habash, Jirji Zeydan, Michel Aflaq, etc).

Indeed. The struggle seems to have been for the Maronites, who typically do not self-identify as Arabs but as descendants of the Phoenicians, to maintain control in one sliver of the Middle East.

I don’t think it’s nearly that simple, but okay.

Scheuer and I are not talking about the Islamist drive to gain dominance in various parts of Asia and Africa; I for one am outraged by the atrocious treatment that intolerant Wahhabist and Salafist types have been meting out to Christians as of late in Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, and elsewhere. (Which is why all Christians must support televised evangelization work along the lines of that done by Father Zakaria Boutros.) Scheuer and I argue that al-Qa’ida’s attacks on American targets are in retaliation for Washington’s foreign policies, though we also do not discount the Islamists’ religious motivations for the conduct of their so-called “raids”. A state run by the likes of Ayman al-Zawahiri will evidently resemble Afghanistan under the Taliban and south-central Somalia under al-Shabaab far more than social-democratic Scandinavia, but if American support for Arab authoritarian regimes and the state of Israel is fueling the violent hostility of Muslims, the reality must be recognized and responded to as it is.

My comment was really limited to why I don’t think George Habash is a good example of any kind of latent radical tendency among the Christians that is comparable to that of the Islamic radicals (primarily because I don’t think there is such a Christian tendency; there can be such a secular nationalist tendency that can even work together with Islamist goals, as in the pre-Ataturk Turkey of the “Young Turks” that saw the destruction of the Assyrians, Armenians and Greeks at the turn of the last century, but secular nationalism is not Christianity). I do not care to discuss the politics of al-Qaeda and their ilk. That presupposes a level of rationality and willingness to compromise that I don’t think we should assume that all who follow such a path possess. They are extremists, after all.

 

[Bakmoon]

check this site by a group of ex muslims, complete with verses from koran to understand
why they left islam.
faithfreedom.org/articles…laws-of-islam/

I checked that article and I found it to be rather misleading and inaccurate. The site is clearly biased and although it cites scholarly sources, it pretends that it is citing some sort of scholarly consensus on the issues which is not true. It also misstates a lot of principles of Islamic interpretation of the Qur’an (called Tafsir) for example by misunderstanding the principle of abrogation, which the article conveniently forgets to mention is restricted in its application to the field of Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence).

If you want to discuss the matters in detail ,we can talk about the matter here. Just bring up the points you want to discuss.

 

[Moro_Rock]

But West African Islam, if I am not mistaken, follows the Maliki school of Sunni jurisprudence and places a notable emphasis on Sufi practice. This form of the faith differs substantially from what is believed and lived out far away in the environs of the birthplace of Islam, the Arabian peninsula, which gave rise in the eighteenth century to the puritanical Wahhabism for which Saudi Arabia is notorious.

Yes, what you say is true . The situation seems irreconcilable .
That is unless we pray more or the Lord returns as He promised.
Either way we need to pray the Rosary as Mary has requested .

The Bible states “We do not fight against flesh and blood , but against spiritual forces of wickedness on high”

 

[keithj84]

My question is what dialogue can you have with people like this. Am the only one that reads the news? They (Muslims) in Pakistan want to stone Christian girl with down syndrome because she supposedly burned quran. People’s lives get threatened and taken when they speak bad of “the prophet” muhammed.
Want the truth on Islam? Go check out how Saudi Arabia and Iran run their countries with Sharia Law.
I’m really sick and tired of people claiming Islam is peaceful. Go read the quran for yourself.

 

[Moro_Rock]

Who was it who said
" It is better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness " ?

It seems so much easier to curse the darkness …

 

[Kouyate42]

My question is what dialogue can you have with people like this. Am the only one that reads the news? They (Muslims) in Pakistan want to stone Christian girl with down syndrome because she supposedly burned quran. People’s lives get threatened and taken when they speak bad of “the prophet” muhammed.
Want the truth on Islam? Go check out how Saudi Arabia and Iran run their countries with Sharia Law.
I’m really sick and tired of people claiming Islam is peaceful. Go read the quran for yourself.

I did read the Qur’an. I now follow Islam.

Picking bad bits of any religion is all too easy. You miss the great good that Islam gives to the world.

With regard to insulting the Prophet Muhammad (saw), you have to understand that for Muslims, love of the Prophet goes beyond love of family, love of self, of the world, but is striving to be like him in every way, as he is held to be the perfect example of how we should devote our lives to Allah, who comes above all else.

 

[Bakmoon]

I’m really sick and tired of people claiming Islam is peaceful. Go read the quran for yourself.

Can you cite verses from the Qur’an which make Islam a violent religion? And I don’t mean giving out of context quotes, either. I mean verses which clearly teach in context the wanton kind of violence which you claim that Islam espouses.

 

[dzheremi]

Picking bad bits of any religion is all too easy. You miss the great good that Islam gives to the world.

Such as…?

With regard to insulting the Prophet Muhammad (saw), you have to understand that for Muslims, love of the Prophet goes beyond love of family, love of self, of the world, but is striving to be like him in every way, as he is held to be the perfect example of how we should devote our lives to Allah, who comes above all else.

And yet your co-religionists see no irony in condemning us for the proper worship of Christ, and mocking our faith and its tenets, which are likewise held by us as going beyond love of family, self, and the world? I’m sorry, I’d be much more willing accept your tender feelings for your prophet if it weren’t for the blatant double standard at play in ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES and communities regarding the feelings of believers. You will never see a Muslim in jail or murdered by mobs in Pakistan for insulting Christians or Christianity, nor for any of the other vileness that spews forth from the masses who are incensed at any perceived insult or lack of respect/deference from their pets of the “Ahl el-Kitab”.

Indeed, as it is, what we see instead are a bunch of whiners going on and on about how YOUR RELIGION is so sacred…and the life of this little girl is not? And the lives of the non-Islamic natives of the Middle East like the Copts, Maronites, Yazidis and others are not? Why must we all bow to your feelings, while our own languish in prisons or are murdered by mobs and assassins for rumors or even less? These are the fruits of the societies that operate by their own admission according to the supposed revelation of Muhammad. This is Islam as we have experienced it for 1400 years and counting.

We have our own requests, in the ways that we would like to live in peace with our Muslim brothers and sisters. But the problem is not on our side. No ma’am. To borrow a phrase from a famous American Muslim leader for our own purposes, we did not land on the Sharia, the Sharia landed on us!

But, no…I guess you’re right…your feelings…your tender, precious feelings and your religion…they’re so much more important than everything. We should have to die so that you can worship your God, complete with all the build-in inferiority that he brought to us for having the temerity to pray in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and to not recognize anything else, regardless of those around us who might have their own different belief. We should have known that this would not be acceptable to Islam, as the writings of your religion do say that should any desire a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him. What is less clear, however, is why then Muslims frequently (or at least much more frequently than their non-Muslim neighbors) then see fit to stand in the place of God in executing apostates, stoning adulterers and whatnot. This is surely a step backwards from the teachings of Christ, who said that he who is without sin cast the first stone.

And you’ve embraced it, and now have come to explain to us why it is that your coreligionists will murder a mentally-impaired child for a supposed crime against a religion she is not even a part of. It boggles the mind. Really, there is nothing more to say to you. May the Lord our God – the ONE GOD who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – have mercy upon all, and guide Muslims away from such behavior, and in the light of His guidance may they come to true worship that is not dependent upon feelings or bibiolatry which causes the whole world to suffer, both Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

 

[Bakmoon]

Such as…?

And yet your co-religionists see no irony in condemning us for the proper worship of Christ, and mocking our faith and its tenets, which are likewise held by us as going beyond love of family, self, and the world? I’m sorry, I’d be much more willing accept your tender feelings for your prophet if it weren’t for the blatant double standard at play in ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES and communities regarding the feelings of believers. You will never see a Muslim in jail or murdered by mobs in Pakistan for insulting Christians or Christianity, nor for any of the other vileness that spews forth from the masses who are incensed at any perceived insult or lack of respect/deference from their pets of the “Ahl el-Kitab”.

Indeed, as it is, what we see instead are a bunch of whiners going on and on about how YOUR RELIGION is so sacred…and the life of this little girl is not? And the lives of the non-Islamic natives of the Middle East like the Copts, Maronites, Yazidis and others are not? Why must we all bow to your feelings, while our own languish in prisons or are murdered by mobs and assassins for rumors or even less? These are the fruits of the societies that operate by their own admission according to the supposed revelation of Muhammad. This is Islam as we have experienced it for 1400 years and counting.

We have our own requests, in the ways that we would like to live in peace with our Muslim brothers and sisters. But the problem is not on our side. No ma’am. To borrow a phrase from a famous American Muslim leader for our own purposes, we did not land on the Sharia, the Sharia landed on us!

But, no…I guess you’re right…your feelings…your tender, precious feelings and your religion…they’re so much more important than everything. We should have to die so that you can worship your God, complete with all the build-in inferiority that he brought to us for having the temerity to pray in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and to not recognize anything else, regardless of those around us who might have their own different belief. We should have known that this would not be acceptable to Islam, as the writings of your religion do say that should any desire a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him. What is less clear, however, is why then Muslims frequently (or at least much more frequently than their non-Muslim neighbors) then see fit to stand in the place of God in executing apostates, stoning adulterers and whatnot. This is surely a step backwards from the teachings of Christ, who said that he who is without sin cast the first stone.

And you’ve embraced it, and now have come to explain to us why it is that your coreligionists will murder a mentally-impaired child for a supposed crime against a religion she is not even a part of. It boggles the mind. Really, there is nothing more to say to you. May the Lord our God – the ONE GOD who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – have mercy upon all, and guide Muslims away from such behavior, and in the light of His guidance may they come to true worship that is not dependent upon feelings or bibiolatry which causes the whole world to suffer, both Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

Following your line of reasoning, would it be fair to condemn Catholicism for the actions of Catholics during the troubles in Ireland? Of course not. And I would remind everyone here that the issue of this thread is how to engage in dialogue with Islam, not to bring up all the issues everybody can think of with Muslims. I think that it is on topic to discuss the teachings of Islam, but that it goes beyond the purpose of this thread to discuss how well these teachings are (or aren’t) put into practice by Muslims. If you want to discuss that, I think it would be more sensible to start a separate thread for that issue.

 

[AdamP88]

Following your line of reasoning, would it be fair to condemn Catholicism for the actions of Catholics during the troubles in Ireland? Of course not. And I would remind everyone here that the issue of this thread is how to engage in dialogue with Islam, not to bring up all the issues everybody can think of with Muslims. I think that it is on topic to discuss the teachings of Islam, but that it goes beyond the purpose of this thread to discuss how well these teachings are (or aren’t) put into practice by Muslims. If you want to discuss that, I think it would be more sensible to start a separate thread for that issue.

It would actually be more true to say that the whole Northern Ireland troubles was not particularly related to religion but more to political and historical differences.
Namely the division of the Island of Ireland between the newly formed republic and the North.

I personally believe that all religious conflict in history has a land, wealth or material element behind.

 

[dzheremi]

Following your line of reasoning, would it be fair to condemn Catholicism for the actions of Catholics during the troubles in Ireland? Of course not.

What? This isn’t my reasoning at all. This is what you read, but apparently we are not on the same page at all, and since I wrote the post, I believe I know my reasoning at least a bit better than you do.

Please notice that what I am against is the reliance on feelings as a defense of horrible deeds, in this case mentally-disabled child murder. Should there be many Muslims that would defend the child over the book (or really, the charges that stem from Islamic societies’ view of the book, which, yes, is intimately tied to their religion), I would not call them anything other than Muslims. And in fact, I hope they’re out there. The Islamic world needs such people. But reality is, as in the murder of Shabbaz Bhatti (sp.), the Christian representative who has murdered for publicly speaking out against the blasphemy laws (and he wasn’t the only one; there were others of various religions, too), that the feelings of Muslims are worth more than the lives of anyone. That’s reality. It is not wise to bring up N. Ireland, not only because I am not a Catholic or a Protestant (so their examples don’t work with me), but also because if anything it adds to my point: We cannot live in peace in this world when the feelings of one group are appealed to in justifying the continued murder or oppression of their neighbors. That’s as true in N. Ireland as it is in Pakistan. In this particular case it comes down upon Islam (as it often does; I do not believe that such atrocities just happen to follow Islam around the globe for 1400 years, as though it’s all one big coincidence) because Pakistan is an Islamic society. Yet I’m the one who is unfairly blaming Islam? Get out of here with that. Either it’s wrong when Pakistanis and Irish do it, or everybody should be able to murder everybody else essentially because they feel like it. Well that’s not a world that I want to live in, whether you call it Islamic or Catholic or Buddhist or whatever.

And I would remind everyone here that the issue of this thread is how to engage in dialogue with Islam, not to bring up all the issues everybody can think of with Muslims.

What of this discussion does not belong in the thread? I’m sorry, maybe you have a different idea as a Buddhist, but particularly for me as a Coptic Orthodox person, these are the issues that MUST be discussed with Muslims if we are ever going to discuss anything else. I am not interested in photo ops where the Christian leader reiterates that Islam is a religion of peace (when it’s not), and the Muslim leader talks about how much Islam respects and loves Jesus (when they don’t), and then everybody goes home feeling warm and fuzzy…until things like this happen, in complete conformity with the approach to the law engendered in Islamic (or, in Egypt’s case, rapidly Islamicizing) societies, and we all come back down to earth and look at how things are REALLY being run.

As a Christian, and as someone who cares about the rights of all people as creations of God, I cannot accept this. Don’t tell me that first I need to look at the teachings of Islam, as though we don’t know enough from 1400 years under it. Theory is theory, and it is valuable to the jurists, but practice is practice and it, not the peaceful verses you can cherry-pick from the Qur’an, is what is going to murder this little girl, all while the sycophants tell us that Islam is really peaceful, and Muslims clamor on about how they don’t feel that their feelings and sensibilities are respected.

We’re not dialoguing our way out of this one, people. There was a great deal more dialogue that went on in past eras (see Hoyland’s excellent “Seeing Islam As Others Saw It” for a compendium of translated primary source texts dating back to the very beginning of Muslim/non-Muslim engagement for a little taste of how our forefathers used to approach this idea, before the errors of popular monotheism and “interfaith dialogue” caused so many to turn their back on our traditions), and yet here we are. It’s not a coincidence.

 

[Bakmoon]

We’re not dialoguing our way out of this one, people. There was a great deal more dialogue that went on in past eras (see Hoyland’s excellent “Seeing Islam As Others Saw It” for a compendium of translated primary source texts dating back to the very beginning of Muslim/non-Muslim engagement for a little taste of how our forefathers used to approach this idea, before the errors of popular monotheism and “interfaith dialogue” caused so many to turn their back on our traditions), and yet here we are. It’s not a coincidence.

Look at the first post on this thread.

Hi There,

I have a group of Muslim acquaintances with whom I have been discussing the Catholic & Islamic faith recently.

I’m wondering does anyone else here speak with Muslims or have any ideas on what a good way of discussing these issues and possibly opening them up to the concepts of the Catholic faith.

Many Muslims misunderstand the idea of the Trinity and no Muslim believes that Jesus is the Risen Lord.

Just starting this thread to bounce ideas.

The post is clearly talking about engaging with Muslim ideas, rather than discussing the issues of Muslim-Christian conflict, and I am just pointing out that we should confine the points of discussion to that. I’m not saying the points you bring up shouldn’t be discussed, only that you should open up a new thread to do so.

 

[AdamP88]

The post is clearly talking about engaging with Muslim ideas, rather than discussing the issues of Muslim-Christian conflict

The two topics are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[IbnFiktur]

The two topics are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

They are not mutually exclusive, listing atrocities back and forth is certainly not an effective form of “Muslim Christian dialogue.”

 

[AdamP88]

They are not mutually exclusive, listing atrocities back and forth is certainly not an effective form of “Muslim Christian dialogue.”

True, however, for the purposes of discussion it may be potentially useful to gain insight into what people’s opinions are. Just because Bakmoon disagrees with someone does not mean he can shoot him down.

The opinion of dzheremi is valid. Actually I’m interested in what he has to say as someone who seems to have dealt more with Muslims.

The key to dialogue is being a listener.

 

[Bakmoon]

The two topics are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Of course they are not mutually exclusive, but from the first post it seemed as though you intended the discussion to be about how to reach out to Muslims specifically on theological and doctrinal issues. I don’t mind examining the issues of Christian-Muslim conflict, but I think given the context of this thread, it should be done so through the lens of theological and doctrinal matters, something which was not done in dzheremi’s post. If we want to examine these issues of conflict with Muslims from the point of view of theology or doctrine, or even discuss what is the proper way to bring up these issues with Muslims, that’s fine by me. I just think it is beyond the parameters of the current discussion to just list such conflicts without some sort of context that is aimed at actual discussion with Muslims.

If he were saying “these are the issues, and I think the best way to discuss these matters with Muslims is to do X, Y, and Z” I wouldn’t really object, but that’s not what was going on.