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Kouyate42
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So someone can insult me but when I say exactly the same, it’s suddenly and magically a problem? Talk about a double standard!
Dialogue with Muslims
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MartinJordan
Guest
Ok thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. My questions to you for the record was not and never in any way to agree with my religious perspective.
I have tons of respect for the Jewish faith. Just to let you know.
As for me however I do get annoyed with Muslims (who happen to be my friends) who tell me as frank as they get, that Islam is correcting what came before.
They do not show any proof except say “It was Ishmael no Isaac who to be sacrificed” , “Moses was found by the Pharoes wife”, and it goes on.
This is where I defend Jewish scriptures and have told them that they should be thankful that we (Christians and Muslims) should be grateful that we know God is one from Jews also that the Jewish are meticulous when it comes to recording scriptures. But this falls to deaf ears.
Very frustrating.
Anyway all the best to you Kaninchen. Godbless
MJ
There are various problems with Islam which have been legitimately highlighted.
The lack of freedom to practice non-Islamic religion in countries governed by Sharia law
Dignity of women and dominance of men in Islam
Islam as a positive or negative force in the world?
I am merely asking the questions. As regards violence, it is my opinion that all humans are capable of violent acts but that religion has never been the cause of a major conflict.
The lack of freedom to practice non-Islamic religion in countries governed by Sharia law
Dignity of women and dominance of men in Islam
Islam as a positive or negative force in the world?
I am merely asking the questions. As regards violence, it is my opinion that all humans are capable of violent acts but that religion has never been the cause of a major conflict.
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fnr
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First, I would strongly advise you to understand your own faith, and research the tactics that Muslim apologetics use to evangelize to Chrisitans. For example, the Quran proclaims a major role for Jesus in the end times, calls him the Messiah, and believe that he was so beloved by God that he is second only to Muhammad in the line of prophets. Muslims will cite Bible verses showing Jesus pointing to the Father as “proof” that he never claimed to be the son of God, nor God in any way. They will spin Jesus discussing the paraclete as indicative of Muhammad. They will show you the “scientific proofs” in the Quran, and discuss how, in contrast to modern conception, Islam was a major step up in social justice for women of the Arab world. You need to know how your own faith defends against this mix of truth and Islamic spin to be able to effectively prepare for your dialogue.
Second, I would advise you to research Islam and what it truly does and doesn’t teach. An unbiased account is Annemarie Schimmel’s book, Islam: An Introduction. I would also encourage you to read accounts of ex-Muslims who left the faith and why. I would also encourage you to read accounts of converts from Christianity to Islam, to understand what is so appealing about it.
Third, I would strongly advise you to allow them to explain their faith you in the spirit of friendship and mutual respect. Evangelization requires sympathy, patience, and true humanity. Remember, Muslims are people first, and as deserving of love, dignity, and respect as any other person. They’re not stupid, nor will they be convinced by easy argument. Evangelism that’s successful takes time. As John Paul II wrote in Redemptoris missio about evanglizing other cultures, someone reaching out to Muslims must engage in:
“understanding, appreciating, fostering and evangelizing the culture of the environment in which they are working, and therefore of equipping themselves to communicate effectively with it, adopting a manner of living which is a sign of gospel witness and of solidarity with the people.”
Last, after you have had a chance to fairly hear them out, share your own views on Christianity and Islam. This should be based on an understanding of the core of their faith. As I’ve said, do your own research into Islam and really get to know what it truly says. Only knowing another’s faith can you hope to explain how Catholicism is a better choice.
Here’s one example of my research that has convinced me that at least part of the Quran is the product of translation from Syriac Christian liturgical texts:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=704218
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Kouyate42
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Again, this is not always the case.
Islam guarantees education , dignity and honour to women. In fact, it is obligatory upon Muslimahs to seek and have an education, both in secular and Islamic subjects, and to educate themselves on their religion. After all, they are the ones who raise Muslim children.
Positive. For many people in the world, Islamic groups and the mosques are the only chance they have to gain crucial things like clean water, food, clothes, and an education. Similarly, there have been many contributions by Muslims to science, the arts, history, philosophy and literature, among others.
The question must be asked…do the negative aspects outweigh the positive?
The situation in Pakistan is such that to be any religion but Muslim is to take one’s life into your hands.
Most truly Muslim countries are totally intolerant of other faiths.
In my country Muslims are free to practice…
As fo the dignity of women. Why the head-scarves? What is the need to cover up from head to toe? This is something imposed by men.
The situation in Pakistan is such that to be any religion but Muslim is to take one’s life into your hands.
Most truly Muslim countries are totally intolerant of other faiths.
In my country Muslims are free to practice…
As fo the dignity of women. Why the head-scarves? What is the need to cover up from head to toe? This is something imposed by men.
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fnr
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Please see this thread as well: The Quran’s claim that Jesus did not die on the cross.
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fnr
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kouyate42;:
السلام عليكم!
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Kouyate42
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The modesty issue isn’t just confined to women, but all believers, including men.
Wearing long clothes and the hijaab is an acknowledgement of women’s great sexual power and how great a responsibility it is to ensure that power is kept within decent limits. This is something that is up to the woman, and most Muslim women would never allow themselves to be controlled or dictated to by men on this issue. This isn’t even a Muslim issue, as I doubt that women of any faith would allow a man to tell them how to dress.
Fact is that I dress how I please, according to MY wishes and desire to be modest, and I can choose to wear anything I choose, from the abaya (long dress) or salwar kameez to ordinary British clothing.
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dzheremi
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Yes, all of them. There are different laws concerning the believer and the unbeliever in all countries that are self-professed “Islamic” countries. This is not something I made up. I am not talking about the built-in “protections” (though this could be another subject for another thread), but the markers of difference.
Yes, though it is absolutely not true that they have lived alongside Muslims for centuries without problems (read Coptic history sometime). And it is the same people who are suffering increased attacks and violence since the beginning of the Islamist push for political control of the country in the wake of the Arab Spring. They are suffering, reform-minded Muslims are suffering, liberals are suffering, etc. It’s not pretty. I don’t know when you last went to Egypt, but one of the deacons from my church went home to Alexandria last December. Things were not spectacular then, and they have not gotten any better. This is not the fault of any individual Muslim or Muslims as a whole in any particular location (i.e., I would not blame “Egyptian Muslims” as a group for what goes on), but rather is the result of socially-ingrained biases rooted in religious difference and a sense of superiority and immunity, in that everyone knows that the so-called “reconciliation councils” that are mandated by the government after anti-Coptic rampages will not bring justice, but are designed to put the lid on very bad, tense situations. This is why we’ve seen more and more forced evictions of Coptic communities recently as in Ameriya (8 families) and in Dahshour (120 families), ostensibly for their safety. And now in Sohag, the forces of evil are dispensing with any formality and telling Copts straight out “any Christian who dares to leave his house will be killed”.
Again, I don’t blame you personally for what goes on, but when taken in conjunction with my larger point about how we cannot bow to the feelings of Muslims…well, I don’t know how much clearer I can be. This is Islam as we have experienced it. It may not be your Islam (I hope very much that it is not), but this is why I react as I do when I read about the feelings of Muslims as an explanation as to why we are being beaten and killed. Again, not because you would personally do it, but because you gave that explanation as regards supposed insults of your prophet.
See above, or any of the other posts when I dealt with this. I’m not attacking you personally. I’m disagreeing with any appeal to feelings on any side (see my reply to Bakmoon, post #95). I don’t think it is ever okay to physically harm someone or kill them because they made you angry or sad or scandalized. Your feelings, whether you are a Muslim or a whatever else, are not worth someone else’s life. Period. And since you brought up the tender feelings Muslims have for their prophet in response to another poster’s mention of the latest Pakistani blasphemy case, I replied so as to register my objection to that idea. If you want to take that as a personal insult, that’s kinda on you. I think I’ve explained myself certainly enough in subsequent posts that at least most other people know where I’m coming from.
Again, what I am against is feelings-based rationalizations/explanations for murdering people who are accused of various offenses to their prophet’s or their books’ dignity. If you do not agree with such things, great, wonderful, but you did bring that up by way of explanation.
I see you did not read my reply to Bakmoon (#95)? I am not a Catholic, and I do not in fact need to look at what they have done. I agree that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones and to the extent that Christians make similar arguments, I am against them too. Again, what I am arguing against is that someone’s feelings should take precedence over anyone else’s life. That’s all. I’m not playing “who committed the most atrocities”. That would be stupid, and once again, as I explained to Bakmoon some time ago, that’s not what I’m getting at at all. (Though, for the sake of argument, there are a few very famous stories that concern the Copts, such as the murder of Hypatia or the supposed murder of the first of the Chalcedonian Patriarchs of Alexandria. I recognize those as the atrocities that they are, and may Peter the Reader and those of his mob be dealt with accordingly on the day of judgment, e.g., with all the mercy that I shall hope for as well.)
Agreed.
Why then is there no requirement for men to wear clothing of the same type?
The fact is, most Islamic women are not actually free to wear what they like. They must wear the oppressive clothing of Islam.
The reasoning behind this is simple - Islamic belief is that men cannot control themselves sexually and thus must be protected from lusting after women.
Women are considered to be second class citizens in Islam.
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dzheremi
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To be fair, women of the Oriental Churches also cover their heads (as do Easterners/Byzantines, as far as I can tell), in accordance with the scriptures (this is also why we remove our shoes in the church). This is not a foreign custom, though of course the reasoning is different than in Islam’s case, as Muslims do not believe in the Holy Bible.
http://cdnlive.albawaba.com/sites/d...node//sites/default/files/im/Egypt/coptic.jpg
^^^ Coptic modesty!
^^^ Syriac modesty!
Habesha (Ethiopian/Eritrean) modesty!
The Habesha women in particular, I think, could give any Muslim woman a ride for her money in the religious dress department!
Their “netela” (the white garment that they cover themselves with; men have some variation of it, too, but I don’t remember what it is called) is a common sight back home in Northern California, where you can see some of the older, venerable women of the community wearing it all day, and also with the Cross tattooed on their foreheads, as here:http://imgc.artprintimages.com/imag...er-forehead-ethiopia_i-G-40-4001-C66WF00Z.jpg
That’s a custom from the old country that I am always very, very happy to see!
But it is not a contest…neither is it anything foreign to our traditions. Catholic women used to dress in some variation of the above, as well. When I went to Mexico about 20 years ago to volunteer in an orphanage in Juarez, a lot of little old ladies dressed like the women in the background of the Syriac Orthodox picture, and they weren’t even going to church. They were just hanging out, being little and old and probably (statistically speaking) Catholic. I imagine if you had asked any of them how they could stand such a terrible affront to their dignity, they would’ve laughed or hit you or both.
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Bakmoon
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Ultimately, these problems are ones that I think can only be resolved by movements among the Muslims themselves to openly address these issues. These points are usually brought up in the dialogue between Muslims and other faiths, but the proper way these will be fixed will be through serious discussion among Muslims themselves. There are movements like this already, but it will take time for them to properly grow and reach the critical mass necessary to cause serious debate on these issues in predominantly Muslim countries.
For example, the answer to the problems of the question of the place of Muslim women in society will be resolved by the work of Islamic Feminism which would probably go about things by arguing women’s rights using Islamic teachings, such as the importance of the education of women, the fact that traditional Fiqh recognizes the equality of women in matters of property and pre-nuptual agreements (although culturally these things have fallen into disuse).
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Bakmoon
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Can you back this up with primary sources about Islam? (That is to say, the Qur’an and the authentically regarded Hadith)
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fnr
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kempo1
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If islam is supposed to be a religion of peace and love like you guys and or girls claim then why dont we ever see the outrage from the moderates ,that are claimed to exist. I know that when a supposed christian does something wrong you always hear from the bretheren. You never hear muslims speak out against atrocities commited on non believers or even their own. Lets be real here. If the moderates exist why are we always only hearing muslims defend every thing islamic fundementalists do. You guys dont make this believeable. And i really dont want to offend anyone hear in this discussion but i am a realist and call it like i see it. Please prove me wrong! You are quick to bring up the christian wrongs of the past but someone was always speaking out against it. Here now in modern times islamic fundementalism is out for blood, prove me wrong!
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dzheremi
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It made many formerly Byzantine Christian lands into Muslim lands, which they remain today. So I wouldn’t say it accomplishes nothing. It accomplished a great deal for Islam. Here is what some of historical chroniclers who witnessed the events first-hand have to say:
In January, the people of Hims took the word for their lives** and many villages were ravaged by the killing of the Arabs of Muhammad and many people were slain and taken prisoner from Galilee as far as Beth…*
– A fragment from the Arab Conquest, on the front fly-leaf of a sixth-century Syriac manuscript containing the Gospel according to Mark, reproduced in Hoyland Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam (Darwin Press, Princeton NJ, 1997)
- modern Homs, Syria
** the Syriac is shqal melta l-hayyhon, i.e., they pledged their submission in return for their lives
– An East Syrian (Nestorian) Chronicler of Khuzistan, written c. 660s, ibid.
- the Persians
** inhabitants of Merv, a major city on the Silk Road, roughly corresponding to today’s Mary, Turkmenistan
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IbnFiktur
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Watch for generalizations… One might think the same thing about Christianity if one read St. Paul at surface level.
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JHow
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Military conquest accomplishes many things. It is foolish and dangerous to believe otherwise, but perhaps that is not what you meant. Simply ask the Aztecs, or Hernan Cortez…examples abound. The morality of a particular conquest is a matter for debate.
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fnr
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The Kingdom of God will never be won by military means.
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