Dialogue with Muslims

[Bakmoon]

Actually the Koran states explicitly that non-believers or infidels should be converted by any means necessary.

It also states that only Muslims will enjoy eternal life in Paradise and everyone else will be condemned to Hell.

Can you cite some verses to back up that claim?

 

[AdamP88]

Can you cite some verses to back up that claim?

Originator -

1. As for those who disbelieve, for them is the Fire of Hell, wherein they will never be finished off and die, nor will its punishment be lightened for them. Thus We will repay every ingrate.
2. And they will scream therein, “Our Lord, let us out, and we will act righteously, differently from the way we used to act.” Did We not give you a life long enough, in which anyone who wanted to understand would have understood? And the warner did come to you. So taste. The evildoers will have no helper.

 

[AdamP88]

Chapter 8 - The Spoils

1. That God may distinguish the bad from the good, and heap the bad on top of one another, and pile them together, and throw them in Hell. These are the losers.
2. Say to those who disbelieve: if they desist, their past will be forgiven. But if they persist—the practice of the ancients has passed away.
3. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and religion becomes exclusively for God. But if they desist—God is Seeing of what they do.

 

[AdamP88]

Chapter 9 - Repentance

1. Except for those among the polytheists with whom you had made a treaty, and did not violate any of its terms, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill the treaty with them to the end of its term. God loves the righteous.
2. When the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them. And capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayers, and pay the alms, then let them go their way. God is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Religion of Peace???

 

[Ontheway]

They are not terrorists. They are Muslims.

Too much confusion regarding this matter. Too many silly statements, such as “not all Muslims are terrorists.” Of course not. Not all Muslims blow themselves up or fly planes into the twin towers. Not every single muslim wants to blow you up. I have met many friendly, nice Muslims. I could argue that they are kind, family oriented, friendly and cheritable. This is true of more Muslims than Christians I know. But, nearly every Muslim I know was very happy when the twin towers were destroyed.

Furthermore, all those attacks on Christians throughout the world are not carried out by some terrorists. These are simple Islamic folks, neighbors, who go on rampages and kill innocent people. THEY ARE NOT TERRORISTS. They are just folks. They get angry when their Christian neighbors want to fix the leaky roof in their church. They kill Christians on a rumor that some Islamic girl got kidnapped and converted to Christianity. The girl never materializes but the Christians are killed and their churches bombed or burned down.

Read the reports from the middle east and Africa. Churches are blown up and people killed not by some terrorist squads, but by local population.

So please, no more “not all Muslims”, etc., etc. We already know that.

 

[Ontheway]

There are a lot of subtleties to Islam that a lot of Muslims will miss and never even give the time of day to contemplate. What some Muslims (or even non-Muslims due to ignorant perpetuation) take for granted are subjects and ideas that should by no means be set in stone in regards to some kind of golden rule.

One good example would be the discussion of the Trinity found within this thread. Most Muslims would say that the Koran rejects the Christian concept of the Trinity. This is only true if one’s understanding of the Trinity in someway denies the singularity and oneness of God. Not all Christians, or most, think this way though. If you look at the Trinitarian doctrine (s) they are quite careful in preserving God’s oneness.

There is one Koranic verse that some would point to saying that Islam negates the Christian concept of the Trinity. That would be the quote, “Those who say, ‘God is the third of three’ have become truth-concealers” (5:73). Anyone with an elementary knowledge of any Christian catechism lets us know that God is not “the third of three.” God is one and three at the same time. As long as he is three God presents himself as three persons-Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

There is another Koranic verse that says something similar to what I’ve already quoted. Drawing from the already mentioned verse that I quoted we can get a better understanding of this next one that states:

"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So have faith in God and His messengers, and do not say, “Three.” Refrain; better it is for you. God is only One God. (4:171)

Everyone should notice that the above quote gives Jesus a highly exalted position and states that he has qualities that no other prophet possessed. It also stresses that there is only one God. If faith in Jesus leads to the understanding of three gods then the Koran rejects that. However, most Christians would say that they have faith in only one God, not three (as per the traditional understanding of the Trinity).

I could go on and on but I just wanted to give this one example of a concept within Islam highly misunderstood. In many countries around the world religion is incredibly political and so these subtle readings of the texts are lost much of time. Muslims (and Christians for that matter) feel threatened by other faiths and other ways of life. That often leads to persecution and a shallow reading of the religious text.

The difficulty with the Trinity is that it is the Muslims who misunderstand the Christian concept. We believe in One God, not three. The Muslims think that we have three gods and that is part of the problem. It is they who should study the subtelties of the Christian doctrine.
Regarding Jesus in the Koran, they acknowledge a prophet named Jesus. But, they don’t acknowledge his death on the cross, the resurrection or His salvific mission. Jesus is the savior and redeemer for us Christians, and not just a prophet.

Muslims believe in the book, while Jesus is the Word. His life is the salvation history. He is ever present. Always has been and always will be. Amen.

 

[kempo1]

I recently seen an interview from a christian reporter who interviewed several muslim clerics from U.K. and different parts of the world. The common thing they all said was there plan is whatever nation they are in is to populate that country with as many muslims as possible to take over pollitically then seize power, then impose shuria law. It really bothers me how blind people are to what is really going on with these people. They said that they would do this to try and take over peacefully first. Then like i said you will have to submit. These interviews were not with some fly by night clerics. I know we should be tollerant and loving and try to have peaceful interaction with other religions but this islam is not like other religions. Wake up people! We always refer to only the more loving side of our faith but there is a side of Christ that was stern for instance the cleansing of the temple, or what about St. Paul instructing the church to throw out the trouble makers. Am i wrong to feel this way? I think the problem is far worse than some here will admit. I am not saying to hate anyone that is muslim but how far are we to let these issues go unchallenged. Does anyone believe in their mind that if they had a chance they would not take over with shuria law in USA? OR take over vatican city? Again am i wrong?

 

[SteveVH]

I could go on and on but I just wanted to give this one example of a concept within Islam highly misunderstood. In many countries around the world religion is incredibly political and so these subtle readings of the texts are lost much of time. Muslims (and Christians for that matter) feel threatened by other faiths and other ways of life. That often leads to persecution and a shallow reading of the religious text.

Great post!

From what I have seen the theology of the Trinity is misunderstood by Muslims for the simple reason that it is ignored. There is a complete refusal to consider the Jesus of Sacred Scripture and what the witnesses to his life said and wrote about him. Even the concept of God as “Father” is rejected so it logically follows then that He could not have a Son. The Christian scriptures are not even considered as a source for learning about Christ, even though he is the center and purpose of the scriptures. If it is misunderstanding, it is willful misunderstanding.

 

[robwar]

I recently seen an interview from a christian reporter who interviewed several muslim clerics from U.K. and different parts of the world. The common thing they all said was there plan is whatever nation they are in is to populate that country with as many muslims as possible to take over pollitically then seize power, then impose shuria law. It really bothers me how blind people are to what is really going on with these people. They said that they would do this to try and take over peacefully first. Then like i said you will have to submit. These interviews were not with some fly by night clerics. I know we should be tollerant and loving and try to have peaceful interaction with other religions but this islam is not like other religions. Wake up people! We always refer to only the more loving side of our faith but there is a side of Christ that was stern for instance the cleansing of the temple, or what about St. Paul instructing the church to throw out the trouble makers. Am i wrong to feel this way? I think the problem is far worse than some here will admit. I am not saying to hate anyone that is muslim but how far are we to let these issues go unchallenged. Does anyone believe in their mind that if they had a chance they would not take over with shuria law in USA? OR take over vatican city? Again am i wrong?

no you are right.

 

[Bakmoon]

Chapter 9 - Repentance

1. Except for those among the polytheists with whom you had made a treaty, and did not violate any of its terms, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill the treaty with them to the end of its term. God loves the righteous.
2. When the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them. And capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayers, and pay the alms, then let them go their way. God is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Religion of Peace???

I will start with this set of verses first, just because I can answer this one first.

These verses have been taken out of context. I will provide the broader context and explain.
The Noble Qur'an Translated by Yusuf Ali:

And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (9:3)

(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. (9:4)

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5)

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.(9:6)

These verses are a command which are tied to a specific place and time, namely the time when the city of Mecca broke its treaty with Medina under Muhammad. It is quite clear from the textual context of verse 5 that the use of the word Pagan is being used not in a general sense, but as a term to refer specifically to the enemies in the city in Mecca. This is made quite explicit in verse 4 which states that the peace treaty stays in effect with those pagans who have not broken the treaty, and therefore the term Pagan in verse 5 is being used in a limited sense of the Pagan enemies of Medina on the situation of the battlefield, and not as a general statement for all Muslims to kill all Pagans.

Also, if Muslims are commanded to kill all Pagans, then why does verse 6 insist that the Pagans who ask for asylum receive it? It says nothing about forcing him to convert, but that asylum be granted so they have an opportunity to hear about Islam, and that they should be allowed to go to a secure place.

That doesn’t jive with the idea that Muslims are commanded to kill all non-believers.

 

[Bakmoon]

Originator -

1. As for those who disbelieve, for them is the Fire of Hell, wherein they will never be finished off and die, nor will its punishment be lightened for them. Thus We will repay every ingrate.
2. And they will scream therein, “Our Lord, let us out, and we will act righteously, differently from the way we used to act.” Did We not give you a life long enough, in which anyone who wanted to understand would have understood? And the warner did come to you. So taste. The evildoers will have no helper.

The Arabic word used here for disbeliever is the word “Kāfir” which derives from the Arabic verb “Kafar” which means to cover up or conceal, so the word “Kāfir” literally means something like “He who conceals the truth” which means something a bit more than just not believing.

The Qur’an also contains promises for the People of the Book. For example:
The Noble Qur'an Translated by Yusuf Ali:

Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. (3:13)

They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (3:14)

Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right. (3:15)

And furthermore it says:
The Noble Qur'an Translated by Yusuf Ali:

Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

It seems to me that the Qur’an is fairly clear that the People of the Book can go to heaven.

 

[dzheremi]

So what? The Qur’an talks out both sides of its mouth, and from it Muslims do too, and you choose to believe the pretty verses that don’t even apply to you. That says more about you than anything else.

 

[Bakmoon]

Chapter 8 - The Spoils

1. That God may distinguish the bad from the good, and heap the bad on top of one another, and pile them together, and throw them in Hell. These are the losers.
2. Say to those who disbelieve: if they desist, their past will be forgiven. But if they persist—the practice of the ancients has passed away.
3. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and religion becomes exclusively for God. But if they desist—God is Seeing of what they do.

I have already dealt with the issue at stake in verses 37 and 38, so let me move on to 39.

Again, this is referring to a specific time and place, namely that of the battle of Badr. Even the name of the Surah (Spoils) gives it away that the context is one of the battlefield and not one of general significance.

 

[Trebor135]

Sorry, Trebor, if it seems like I’m singling you out here

It doesn’t seem so.

(the other things I’d like to say about this topic would make people sad, so I’ll stick to geography),

Such comments could be enlightening to the thread audience, so don’t hold back. As a Copt, you can probably offer a perspective rarely heard by most Westerners.

but this isn’t quite true. If you’re talking about Saudi Arabia proper, then you are right, but the Arabian Peninsula includes other countries like Kuwait, UAE, and Qatar where there are churches (I’m not sure about Bahrain or Oman, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were). They’re not really like “normal” churches, as they aren’t allowed to have crosses on top of them, nor to ring bells, etc., but they are there.

Nativity celebrations at St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Kuwait

Tenth anniversary celebrations at St. Gregory the Illuminator Armenian Orthodox Church, Sharjah, UAE

Other places on the Peninsula, if not exactly “good”, are a heck of a lot better to their religious minorities than Saudi or Yemen are…for now, anyway.

I’ll have to check those links out. The more chanted work in my “music” collection, the better.

But, in fact, I was entirely aware that other Gulf countries were to varying degrees less religiously intolerant than Saudi Arabia. For example, it was some time ago that I read about Qatar allowing the first Catholic church–bell restrictions and all–in the country to be built. (Plus, without some level of religious freedom, the “Our Lady of the Rosary Qatar Choir” membership probably wouldn’t have felt comfortable with this piece being posted on YouTube for the intelligence services to stumble upon.)

When I noted that “there aren’t any non-Muslims left in present-day Saudi Arabia [or hardly anywhere else on the Arabian Peninsula]”, I was referring primarily to hypothetical “native-born” Christians, as opposed to the large communities of expatriate South Asian and Filippino (not all Hindu or Muslim, by any means!) migrant workers that have formed in the Gulf region. (A noticeable minority of students at my high school comprised Indian Catholics who had spent part of their childhood in such places as Dubai.)

 

[dzheremi]

I see. I apologize for misunderstanding you. You are right there are not as many native-born Christians in the Gulf region as expatriates. It seems that the Qatar choir in your video are Lebanese, and the “related videos” has Konkani (Indian Catholic) hymn performances from inside the same church. Pretty neat to see, really.

 

[504Katrin]

Does anyone believe in their mind that if they had a chance they would not take over with shuria law in USA? OR take over vatican city? Again am i wrong?

On the other hand though, imagine one day Muslims would sit in Mekka and ponder over their faith, and they would be like “Mmmhhh not sure what to do with all this”, and they would ask the Vatican if they wanted to come over and maybe restructure Mekka, do you think that our Pope would say “No, let’s all stay here, that’s none of our business” or do you think that Rome would maybe say: “This is fantastic, let’s go over to Mekka and spread the gospel and evangelize those people!” ?

 

[504Katrin]

Terrorism and suicide bombing is not Islamic, no matter how many Qur’an verses fundamentalists twist.

I have a question for you You guys don’t believe in Jesus’ resurrection, so why do you include our Christian scriptures in your bible? And do you keep Torah laws as well? All this is so confusing imo. We Christians added our Christian scriptures to the Torah and call it bible, and you Muslims added yours to the Torah and our Christian scriptures if I’m not mistaken. Isn’t it difficult for you guys to figure out which rules to follow? I mean this is more and more scripture to study, and more and more laws to follow and things to know

 

[embien]

1. 
   *]Has a gathering likewise been organized by a local Christian group to which Muslims were invited and to whom literature was distributed explaining the trinity and deity of Christ?
   
   *]What did you say?
   
   *]Do you recall the particular passage?
   
   *]We must keep in mind that the hospitality of a group does not necessarily point to the truth of their religion.

1. 1. Not yet.
   2. Something like: I believe in God the Father Almighty etc.
   3. Surah 16 verse 102: Say the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from your Lord in truth in order to strenghen those who believe …
   4. I think it helps to oil the wheels of understanding. We don’t have to buy everything they say but we do need to listen in order to understand. EG the literature explains the true meaning of jihad as stuggle, not merely holy war, “…the daily struggle against one’s own ego, bad habits and negative qualities.” (page 47 of Islam a Brief Tour, WAMY UK (2010)).

 

[kempo1]

On the other hand though, imagine one day Muslims would sit in Mekka and ponder over their faith, and they would be like “Mmmhhh not sure what to do with all this”, and they would ask the Vatican if they wanted to come over and maybe restructure Mekka, do you think that our Pope would say “No, let’s all stay here, that’s none of our business” or do you think that Rome would maybe say: “This is fantastic, let’s go over to Mekka and spread the gospel and evangelize those people!” ?

There is a huge difference inthe way we intend on spreading the gospel from muslims spreading shuria law. If you read my post you would see what those clerics said their intentions are. The most compelling one was in the uk where their numbers are growing. Have you paid attention to world news lately and seen any of the severe problems they are having with the islamists. It would also suprise you that in dearborn michigan where they are exploding in population some christians who showed up at a festival to spread the gospel were nearly killed by the muslims as they threw rocks and bricks at them in front of the police. The police didnt even help these poor people. It was all on tape. Wake up my friend.

 

[embien]

Actually the Koran states explicitly that non-believers or infidels should be converted by any means necessary.

It also states that only Muslims will enjoy eternal life in Paradise and everyone else will be condemned to Hell.

Please give the Surah and verse for each of these statements. Thanks.