Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

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Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka’ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael’s mother followed him saying, “O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?” She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him, “Has Allah ordered you to do so?” He said, “Yes.” She said, “Then He will not neglect us,”…The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. After Ishmael’s mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael’s marriage in order to see his family that he had left before, but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael’s wife about him, she replied, "He has gone in search of our livelihood.’ …

so Allah ordered Abraham to leave Hajar and his suckling son in order to go back to Sarah…why if he is to sacrifice Ishmael?and when did Ishmael return to be sacrificied if he grew up where he settled and got married before seeing his father?
 
The Bible records that Ishmael the Eldest Son was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Fourteen years later Isaac was born. (Gen. 16:16 and 21:5).

The Bible repeatedly records that the Command from God to prophet Abraham (pbuh) was to sacrifice “thy only son”. This particular phrase “thy only son” could only be used when Abraham had ONLY ONE SON.

And for anyone saying that Ishmael (pbuh) was not a legitimate son, note that the Bible says that Ishmael was indeed a legitimate son even after Abraham died;

Genesis 16:3 "And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife."

Genesis 25:9 *"Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him (Abraham) in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, facing Mamre,"

Genesis 25:12 *"Now these are the records of the generations of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s maid, bore to Abraham;"

Strange as it may seem, Muslims have a lot more faith in the truth of the Bible, corrupted as it may be, than most Christians and Jews.
 
Genesis features a bit of a time skip. The sacrifice occured after Ishmael and his mother were sent away, but befor Isaac was married. His age is not told, but he was old enough to carry the wood. God refers to Isaac as Abraham’s only son (Genesis 22:16). This could mean his only LEGITIMATE son, or, in my opinion, his son that had been promised by God, that was born by God’s devine providence
 
inJESUS said:
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka’ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael’s mother followed him saying, “O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?” She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him, “Has Allah ordered you to do so?” He said, “Yes.” She said, “Then He will not neglect us,”…The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. After Ishmael’s mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael’s marriage in order to see his family that he had left before, but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael’s wife about him, she replied, "He has gone in search of our livelihood.’ …

so Allah ordered Abraham to leave Hajar and his suckling son in order to go back to Sarah…why if he is to sacrifice Ishmael?and when did Ishmael return to be sacrificied if he grew up where he settled and got married before seeing his father?
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How does the following passage from the Bible reconcile with the above hadith?

Genesis 21:8-10
** And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.**

Since Isaac was about two years old when he was weaned, Ishmael would have been sixteen years old at the time.

The above hadith however describes the profile of a suckling infant, not of a teenager and therefore, the hadith clearly contradicts this passage from the Bible which says that Ishmael was much older at the time he and his mother were exiled to the wilderness of Paran.

Since according to the hadith, Ishmael (pbuh) and his mother Hagar left Sarah long before Isaac was born, it follows that the command to sacrifice his “only begotten” son could only have come to Abraham (pbuh) before Isaac (pbuh) was born.
 
Hamba,
The expulsion of Ismael comes before the sacrifice. The coming of Isaac was fortold to Abraham when he was instructed to circumcise his clan. Yes, the age gap is correct but your timeline is wrong. Isaac was the child that God told Abraham he would ahve through Sarah, it is Isaac that the covenant is fulfilled. Once Abraham abandoned Ishmael and his mother, Isaac was his only son. Further, it was through Sarah’s will that Ishmael was concieved, while God’s will had Sarah become pregnant with Isaac.

In my opinion, it is revisionist history seeking a stronger link to Abraham. Yes, Ishmael is the father of the Arabic peoples, but he was not the one that God fulfilled his promise to Abraham. No one wants to be the illegitimate son of the king and therefore not heir. By altering God’s word, Islam creates for its followers a false inheritance. Not to sound harsh, but no Christian or Jew will accept a hadith above the Bible. It is simply not possible.
 
swariffin said:
And the Quran says it was Ishmael. Well, the Arabian agree that Ishmael is the Father of the Arabian. So, they don’t want to associate Hagar which is Ishmael mother, was a woman servant of Abraham. Logically makes sense for them saying so. Who wants to admit that his/her ancestor was a servant anyway? But, it does twisted the proof from the earlier manuscript which came thousands of years prior to the Quran (the book of Genesis, I mean).
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Actually the Quran doesn’t even say Ishmael either… all it says is that Abraham was told to sacrifice his son, but it never mentions the son’s name. That this son was Ishmael rather than Isaac developed purely out of Muslim oral tradition.

EDIT: sorry, looks like this was cleared up already. :o
 
Another switching conspiracy. Jesus didn’t die on the cross. He got switched at the last minute and fooled the rest of us to eternity. Man, I want to switch to the dark side too. Not!
 
hi,
i was searching for another subject in this forum, and i saw the title and was interesting what is said so far, but just to clarify the Koran makes it clear that the sacrifice story took place before the birth of Isaac. Now whether u believe it was Isacc or Ishmael is up to you, but in Islam its clear that it was Ishmael, eventhough his name was not mentioned in this part, u just have to read the verses before and after to figure it out.

Koran surah 37 verses 100-113
100 “My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous.”
101 So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.
102 And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: “O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allah), so look what you think!” He said: “O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Insha Allah (if Allah will), you shall find me of As-Sabirin (the patient ones)”
103 Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);
104 And We called out to him: “O Abraham!
105 You have fulfilled the dream (vision)!” Verily! Thus do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)
106 Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial
107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. a ram);
108 And We left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations (to come) in later times.
109 Salamun (peace) be upon Ibrahim (Abraham)!"
110 Thus indeed do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)
111 Verily, he was one of Our believing slaves.
112 And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishaque (Isaac) a Prophet from the righteous.
113 We blessed him and Ishaque (Isaac), and of their progeny are (some) that do right, and some that plainly wrong themselves.
 
malek said:
hi,
i was searching for another subject in this forum, and i saw the title and was interesting what is said so far, but just to clarify the Koran makes it clear that the sacrifice story took place before the birth of Isaac. Now whether u believe it was Isacc or Ishmael is up to you, but in Islam its clear that it was Ishmael, eventhough his name was not mentioned in this part, u just have to read the verses before and after to figure it out.

Koran surah 37 verses 100-113
100 “My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous.”
101 So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.
102 And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: “O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allah), so look what you think!” He said: “O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Insha Allah (if Allah will), you shall find me of As-Sabirin (the patient ones)”
103 Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);
104 And We called out to him: “O Abraham!
105 You have fulfilled the dream (vision)!” Verily! Thus do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)
106 Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial
107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. a ram);
108 And We left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations (to come) in later times.
109 Salamun (peace) be upon Ibrahim (Abraham)!"
110 Thus indeed do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)
111 Verily, he was one of Our believing slaves.
112 And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishaque (Isaac) a Prophet from the righteous.
113 We blessed him and Ishaque (Isaac), and of their progeny are (some) that do right, and some that plainly wrong themselves.
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I think that the issue is WHY would God contradict himself on this topic? In the Book of Genesis, it is Isaac, no questions asked. Ishmael is already “gone” so to speak. One of the two accounts is correct. Which one? If it is Islam, why was this changed thousands of years before the Koran was written?
 
The bible agrees that Ishmael was the eldest. Now think about it…If he had 2 boys and God asked him to sacrifice Isaac (the youngest) it wouldn’t be a big test for prophet Ibrahim, because he will still have Ishmael left. But, the TRUTH is that God asked him to sacrifice Ishmael, his eldest and only son at the time, and this what makes it a real trial for prophet Ibrahim. So when he passed the trial, God rewarded him with the 2nd righteous son that is Isaac.

I believe that the Koran corrects the mistakes that r in the Bible. Mistakes that where intentional and unintentional by the people who wrote the books that comprise the Bible.
 
malek said:
The bible agrees that Ishmael was the eldest. Now think about it…If he had 2 boys and God asked him to sacrifice Isaac (the youngest) it wouldn’t be a big test for prophet Ibrahim, because he will still have Ishmael left. But, the TRUTH is that God asked him to sacrifice Ishmael, his eldest and only son at the time, and this what makes it a real trial for prophet Ibrahim. So when he passed the trial, God rewarded him with the 2nd righteous son that is Isaac.

I believe that the Koran corrects the mistakes that r in the Bible. Mistakes that where intentional and unintentional by the people who wrote the books that comprise the Bible.
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Malek, and today there’s a new book by George Bush. Its called Axisofterror. It says in the book that Abraham’s son Ishmael was a paraplegic and accidentally castrated during his circumcision and therefore unfit to be sacrificed. The descendants of ishmael were in fact born through their butler.

Looks like the Axisofterror also corrected the erroneous Quran. Maybe next year there will be another final book and a last last prophet who has sex with a 3 year old girl instead of muhammad’s 9 year old sex mate.

I really hope you’re not offended. Cos what I’m saying is precisely what you silly muslims are doing.

My point is. Anybody can come up with a stupid book and claim another as false. Who is to know? It is up to the reader to determine who is speaking the truth. Not you, not me to judge who is true or false. But basic-basic common sense tells you that, between the two (Bible or quran), the one that comes first always has the right of refusal/rejection. Plus, going by the evidences of biblical scripture, miracles of its prophets and the comparatively superior character of its prophets. It is not hard to conclude that Islam is pure rubbish.

Good gracious, may someone save your foolishness.
 
hamba2han said:
How does the following passage from the Bible reconcile with the above hadith?
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irrelevent. It is your tradition we are pointing at so you must explain to us on what you base your assumption that it was Ishmael when the Quran does not name him and the hadith says he did not meet Abraham until after he got married.
 
malek said:
in Islam its clear that it was Ishmael, eventhough his name was not mentioned in this part,

that’s not accurate since tradition is split up between Isaac and Ishmael so it is not Jews and Christians who corrupt but rather it is the vaguness of Quran and contradictions of hadith.
u just have to read the verses before and after to figure it out.
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Tabari:

“As for the above-mentioned proof from the Quran that it really was Isaac, it is God’s word which informs us about the prayer of His friend Abraham when he left his people to migrate to Syria with Sarah. Abraham prayed, I am going to my Lord who will guide me. My Lord! Grant me a righteous child.' **This was before he knew Hagar,** who was to be the mother of Ishmael. After mentioning this prayer, God goes on to describe the prayer and mentions that he foretold to Abraham that he would have a gentle son. God also mentions Abraham's vision of himself sacrificing that son when he was old enough to walk with him. **The Book does not mention any tidings of a male child given to Abraham except in the instance where it refers to Isaac**, in which God said, And his wife, standing by laughed when we gave her tidings of Isaac, and after Isaac, Jacob’, and Then he became fearful of them'. They said. Fear not!’ and gave him tidings of a wise son. Then his wife approached, moaning, and smote her face, and cried, A barren old woman'. Thus, **wherever the Quran mentions God giving tidings of the birth of a son to Abraham, it refers to Sarah (and thus to Isaac) and the same must be true of God's words So we gave him tidings of a gentle son’, as it is true of all such references in the Quran.”**

al-Tabari states:

… That ram remained in custody with God until He let it go AS ISAAC’S RANSOM … (The History of Al-Tabari: General Introduction and From the Creation to the Flood)

In Musnad Ahmad, Number 2658, we are told:

The messenger of God said that Gabriel took Abraham to Jamra al-Aqabah (the upper Jamrah, the pillar or place for stoning) and then Satan appeared to him. Then he stoned Satan with seven stones so he fainted him to faint. Then he came to the middle Jamrah, and Satan again appeared to him. He again stoned him with seven stones causing Satan to faint. He then came to the lower Jamrah, and Satan again appeared to him. Again he stoned Satan, causing him to faint once again. Now when Abraham wanted to slaughter his son Isaac, he said his father, “Father, tie me so I don’t get afraid and my blood splash all over you when you slaughter me.” So he took him and he tied him up, and then he took the knife. And when he wanted to slay him a voice called from behind him, “O Abraham, the vision has been fulfilled.”

al-Baidawi states:

As He perfected it formerly on thy fathers: by appointing them as messengers. Some say (that God perfected his blessing) on Abraham by taking him as a ‘friend’ (khalil) and by saving him from the fire (into which the unbelievers had cast him), and (he perfected it) on **Isaac by delivering him from the sacrifice and by ransoming him with a great victim **(for the sacrifice) …

Ibn Kathir:
Q.37:102: WHEN HE REACHED THE AGE OF RUNNING WITH HIM. “Ishmael could not have been with him, for he was very little when he was with his mother in the Meccan mountains.(recorded in Sahih Bukhari as i quoted previously) How could he have reached the age of running with him?” According to this view, **Abraham brought Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca and left them there, never to return. Their only experience together was therefore when Ishmael was too young to be at “the age of running with him.” ** in fact he left him as a suckling baby according to sahih hadith

underlined words are mine.

As we can see, the Bible has no doubts about it. It is Muslims who are in doubt as to who the son was, as they are in doubt as to who was sacrificied later on the cross (the real GREAT sacrifice which is not a ram of course)…the Bible is in harmony, the Quran is silent so it would be ridiculous to accuse all other people of corruption when the fault lies in someone else’s book and traditions.
 
There is a key element in this story of Abraham’s (pbuh) obedience to God in sacrificing his only son which can easily answer the question of which son was to be sacrificed i.e. that of God’s command for all male children to be circumcised.

Genesis 17:10 "This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

And according to the Bible, how old was Abraham (pbuh) when he was circumcised?

Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."

That makes Abraham’s son Ishmael 13, how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

This means that during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham’s only “begotten” son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

The covenant therefore was made with Abraham and Ishmael.

The real problem here is that Christians and Jews do not believe (or more specifically, do not want to believe) what is so clearly written in their own Bible.

And no matter how much they try to twist and turn the issue, they just cannot turn away from what the Bible is telling them about the precise moment in time when the covenant was made…

There is really no conflict between the Bible and the Qur’an and the only places where there exists variances between these two sciptures is when the Bible actually contradicts itself as can be seen in the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all).
 
Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2so **she said **to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said.

So who told Abraham? Sarah, not God. WHY? because she thought that since she is barren, Abraham must sleep with someone else, and the child will be SARAH AND ABRAHAM’S CHILD.

So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, **Sarai **his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me.” 6"**Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her. **

the hadith confirms that Abraham sent her away until Ishmael got married. The hadith even says it was ALLAH who asked Abraham to exile Hagar and Ishmael.

Even after the agreement between Sarai and Abram , Hagar is still considered her **maidservant **. The language is important. It is not Abram who takes Hagar into his tent, but Sarai gives Hagar to Abram. Sarai is in charge. After Abram slept with Hagar and conceived, not only Sarai but also Abram still talks about Hagar as **Sarai’s servant **(v.6), not as his (new) wife. Furthermore, the narrator continues to call Sarai “her mistress”.
The phrase “to be his wife” in verse 3 is merely a euphemism for sexual intercourse. That is clear from the phrase that immediately follows it as well as from the original request . The context makes it clear that Hagar remained the slave not of Abraham, but of Sarai.

All throughout Genesis we find Sarai addressed as Abraham’s wife many times (11:29,31; 12:5,17,18,20; 13:1; 16:1,3; 17:15,19; 18:9,10; 20:2,7,11,12,14,18; 23:3,19) sometimes by God himself. **Hagar is never called the wife of Abraham, whether by Abraham, or by Sarah, or by God **and only once by the narrator in the above discussed verse 16:3.

So your only son means the only son promised by God to Sarah his wife , and not from the maidservant that SARAI asked Abraham to sleep with. Sleeping with a young maid does not necessitate a miracle by God for her to conceive…it is common sense…but for an old barren woman to conceive, then here is the PROMISE God is talkin about, and not asking Abraham to sleep with anyone to get a child…These are the teachings of Sarai, not God.The promise of God is fulfilled when sarah the old woman got pregnant…Abraham did not need to wait for Sarah all these years…he could have done it much before it and he wouldnt need a promise from God about children…but it is Sarah who insisted…and when God decided it is the right time, Sarah the old woman got pregnant and the promise (that Sarah couldnt wait for) was fulfilled.

SLEEPING WITH ANYONE TO GET A CHILD NECESSITATES NEITHER PROMISES NOR MIRACLES FROM GOD.
THAT is why Hagar was exiled, she was never called Abrahams wife and even the Quran does not mention her ONCE.
 
My earlier post seems to have been ignored. I’ll do it again
Please read on, dear friends.
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Quote:
15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
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16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
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17Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
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18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
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19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
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Oh no, Isaac was to be the one through which the convenant was carried.
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Quote:
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
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21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
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22And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
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Again, Ishmael would be the father of a Nation, but Isaac and his line would be the convenant.
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If you stop too soon, you miss it.
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The covenant was between God and Abraham through ISAAC. That is what the Bible says. DO not stop reading too soon. It is like walking out of The Empire Strikes Back early and missing that Vadar is Luke’s daddy
 
ralphinal said:
My earlier post seems to have been ignored. I’ll do it again

The covenant was between God and Abraham through ISAAC. That is what the Bible says. DO not stop reading too soon. It is like walking out of The Empire Strikes Back early and missing that Vadar is Luke’s daddy
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you dont understand the logic here. These are corrupt! yet he accuses us of not believing what the Bible says! seems the word of God depends on which passages Muslims quote.
 
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