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De_Maria
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This deserves to be highlighted:
That is not true. That teaching is found in the Quran:
***3.28 Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah.
It is in fact Islam which says that only Muslims are blest:
** 1102. Abu Basra l-Ghifari reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “I will ride to the Jews tomorrow. Do not give them the greeting first. If they greet you, then say, ‘and on you.’”
I knew that teaching was in the Quran but I couldn’t put my fingers on it.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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That is not true. That teaching is found in the Quran:
***3.28 Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah.
It is in fact Islam which says that only Muslims are blest:
** 1102. Abu Basra l-Ghifari reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “I will ride to the Jews tomorrow. Do not give them the greeting first. If they greet you, then say, ‘and on you.’”
- Abu Hurayra reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road.” (Ibid.; bold and underline emphasis ours)
See the difference how they are to treat themselves: - It is a duty for one Muslim to greet another Muslim when he meets him
- Abu Hurayra said, “I heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, say, 'The rights a Muslim has over another Muslim are five.” He was asked, “What are they?” He replied, “When he meets him, he should greet him, When he gives him an invitation, he should accept. When he asks him for advice, he should give him good counsel. When he sneezes and praises Allah, he should wish him mercy. when he is ill, he should visit him. When he dies, he should accompany him.” (Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari, XDI. Greetings; online source)
I knew that teaching was in the Quran but I couldn’t put my fingers on it.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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zerinus
Guest
That unfortunately is true of some Christians, but not of me! I have no desire to demean, belittle, or speak evil of Islam. I think that Islam is one of the world’s great religions, and has had a great history behind it. But at the same time the truth has to be told; and the truth is that Islamic theology is wrong about many things, the most important of which is about who Jesus was, what His mission was, and what He accomplished.
I certainly don’t agree with that. God also promised great blessings to Ishmael:
Genesis 17:
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
That promise to Ishmael was certainly fulfilled. The Arabian race, who are the descendants of Ishmael, did at one point become a great nation, concurred much of the known world, and established a great civilization which lasted for about a thousand years, in which the arts, sciences, and other refinements of civilization flourished, through which mankind was greatly blessed. And their God is certainly the true God! But that does not mean that everything that they believe in is correct. The greater covenant was indeed made with Isaac, not with Ishmael; and that is also a truth that needs to be acknowledged.
Here we come to the crux of the matter! Here is where Islam is totally wrong. Jesus was not just another prophet. He was a unique kind of individual. He was the Son of God, a divine being, and the Savior and Redeemer of the world. He was indeed sinless, the only sinless individual who has ever lived in the world. What Islam believes about Jesus (and what is taught in the Koran) is totally wrong.
I wasn’t talking about blessings either. You had said that the sacrifice was offered only of the firstborn; and I explained to you why Isaac was now the firstborn. I explained to you how it was that the right of the firstborn has passed on to Isaac; therefore even by your own logic, the sacrifice had to be of Isaac and not of Ishmael. I thought I had made that clear.
That is not true. There is no basis for that in the Bible.
That may be the belief of the Moslems, but has no basis in the Bible. Furthermore, inJESUS has shown that it has no basis in Islamic teachings either. There is disagreement in the Hadith whether it was Ishmael who was offered for sacrifice or Isaac. If the Koran doesn’t know, and the Hadith doesn’t know, what makes you think that you know?
zerinus
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Catholic_Dude
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ROFLMA!
I was at a public library today and as I was walking to get a book I noticed a big 20 volume Encyclopdeia of Islam and I looked up Isaac and it said originally it was held that it was Isaac to be sacrificed and that early respected Muslim leaders taught this, but the encyclopedia went onto say that this view is no longer held and the overwhelming view today is that it was Ishmael.
Guess what the encyclopedia said about Isaac vs Ishmael. It said the real reason why this dispute first arose was because the Persians (Iranians) claimed the Persian people were the ancestors of Isaac while the Arabs claimed the Arabs were the ancestors of Ishmael.
As for the Jews not celebrating the sacrifice of Isaac, the fact is the teaching that it was Isaac was well established in Judaism for literally hundreds of years before Christianity, and established in Christianity (foreshadowing the true sacrifice of Jesus!!!) which was hundreds of years before the Quaran.
The fact early on there were well respected Muslim scholars saying it was Isaac raises the question of whether or not that celebration changed and, if so, when.
That doesnt really work for the fact that celebration does not equal truth. It was recorded in the Jewish Scriptures long before any of us were around.
You cant separate Scriptures from the logic and history though. For example Jews and Christians see Hagar as a maid while Sarah as the true wife, thus logically for Christians and Jews Sarah is the lineage through which God’s future promises would be fulfilled, and in fact they were.
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planten
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ROFLMA!
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inJESUS
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As shown before , twice, a barren woman asking another woman to be pregant, and the son will be the barren woman’s son was a custom…and the woman “used” to give birth **had no statue of a wife. **
2- when God promised abraham, the promise happened when Abraham was married to Sarah…abraham did not receive the promise when he was married to Sarah while sleeping with Hagar! Hagar was not in the picture yet, she was presented long after the promise given to Abraham.
If God promised Abraham when he was already sleeping with Hagar, it means that Hagar existed in Abrahams life before the promise! which is illogical and against what the Bible says.
the Bible clearly says that God promised Abraham through his wife, and it was Sarah who asked him to sleep with Hagar later, and then felt remorse about it because it created conflicts…it would be illogical if God grants Abraham a son from a servant, and then from his wife, and yet call it a promise…it does not need a promise from God to sleeep with a servant…it takes a promise that a barren wife gives birth to a son…the promise happened, and Isaac, the son of Abraham and his WIFE, got the covenant.
2- when God promised abraham, the promise happened when Abraham was married to Sarah…abraham did not receive the promise when he was married to Sarah while sleeping with Hagar! Hagar was not in the picture yet, she was presented long after the promise given to Abraham.
If God promised Abraham when he was already sleeping with Hagar, it means that Hagar existed in Abrahams life before the promise! which is illogical and against what the Bible says.
the Bible clearly says that God promised Abraham through his wife, and it was Sarah who asked him to sleep with Hagar later, and then felt remorse about it because it created conflicts…it would be illogical if God grants Abraham a son from a servant, and then from his wife, and yet call it a promise…it does not need a promise from God to sleeep with a servant…it takes a promise that a barren wife gives birth to a son…the promise happened, and Isaac, the son of Abraham and his WIFE, got the covenant.
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zerinus
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There are several different narrations of the Hadith, and they don’t all agree.
The story in the Koran is very brief and incomplete. The more complete account is given in the Bible. See chapters 15 to 18 and 21 to 22 of the book of Genesis.
That sounds doubtful. The Arabs prior to Islam were pagans. They worshiped idols. The Ka’ba was a house of idols, before Mohamed cleared it of its idols and turned it into a house of God. Why would the pagan Arabs celebrate an event associated with the worship of the one God Allah?
zerinus
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meedo
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lets just clarify this ''early muslim scholars ‘’ thing.ROFLMA!
I was at a public library today and as I was walking to get a book I noticed a big 20 volume Encyclopdeia of Islam and I looked up Isaac and it said originally it was held that it was Isaac to be sacrificed and that early respected Muslim leaders taught this, but the encyclopedia went onto say that this view is no longer held and the overwhelming view today is that it was Ishmael.
Guess what the encyclopedia said about Isaac vs Ishmael. It said the real reason why this dispute first arose was because the Persians (Iranians) claimed the Persian people were the ancestors of Isaac while the Arabs claimed the Arabs were the ancestors of Ishmael.
As for the Jews not celebrating the sacrifice of Isaac, the fact is the teaching that it was Isaac was well established in Judaism for literally hundreds of years before Christianity, and established in Christianity (foreshadowing the true sacrifice of Jesus!!!) which was hundreds of years before the Quaran.
The fact early on there were well respected Muslim scholars saying it was Isaac raises the question of whether or not that celebration changed and, if so, when.
That doesnt really work for the fact that celebration does not equal truth. It was recorded in the Jewish Scriptures long before any of us were around.
You cant separate Scriptures from the logic and history though. For example Jews and Christians see Hagar as a maid while Sarah as the true wife, thus logically for Christians and Jews Sarah is the lineage through which God’s future promises would be fulfilled, and in fact they were.
There were Jews that reverted to islam and they kept teaching what they knew. They are not scholars . The proof from islam that it was ishmael was a hadeeth from the prophet muhammed that stated clearly that it was ishmael and not isac . Whomever of the Muslims have heared that hadeeth state it was ishmael . Whomever didnt just say what he knows if he was a former jew or christian , which is basicly that it was Isaac. Taht is why some of you will think that early on it was said it was isac and then some one said it was Ishmael . Its a matter of who heared of the tradition that was said by the prophet muhammed and who didnt .
The issue is not central to Islam and has no theology based on it. However it is a matter of truth to be told.
eben when you look it from the bible point of view . you will find clearly that it is talking about abrahams only son . there was no ‘‘Only’’ son except ishmael . Simply because ishmael was born first .
31: "He said, “Now take your son, your **only **son, whom you love, even Isaac, and go into the land of Moriah. Offer him there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will tell you of.” "
38: "He said, “Don’t lay your hand on the boy, neither do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your **only **son, from me.” "
10: "The angel of Yahweh said to her, "Behold, you are with child, and will bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because Yahweh has heard your affliction. "
11: "Hagar bore **a son **for Abram. Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael
14: "Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house, and all who were bought with his money; every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the same day, as God had said to him. "
16: "In the same day both Abraham and Ishmael, his son, were circumcised. "
Abraham had an only son once. It was Ishmael.
salam
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meedo
Guest
1- Teh hadith which mentions this tsory is solid and correct . there is no several narrations or disagreements
2- Arabs prior to Muhammed were pagans and prior to that were monothiests. It was at a certain point of time that a man from teh arabs intriduced idols. This changed their monothji9est´sm that they inherited from Ishmael into a mix of reverence for the holy house build by abraham and ishmael into a mix of paganism and reverance of this house that klead to them keeping their most beloved idolsinto this house . This house was not built for idols . The clearing iof the idols came to restore its original status not to implement a new one. Though the arabs became polythiests. they still had remnants of the teacjhing of ioshmael and abraham and thus kept to the worships and the rituals , like the pilgrimage and sacrifice.
hope i cleared.
here is a very nice summirizatuion of muslims opinion
islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/MusTrad/sacrifice.html
islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/MusTrad/sacrifice.html
The Opinion of cUlûm al-Hadîth
As a matter of fact, there was a debate between Muslim scholars whether the sacrificed was Isaac(P) or Ishmael(P). But the critical study of the reports allows us to drive safe conclusions. Here is the opinion of a scholar of the Science of Hadîth:
The truth is that the reports stating that the Sacrificed is Isaac are part of the Isrâ’îliyyât due to the People of the Book, it was transmitted by those who converted among them like Kacb al-Ahbâr and it was conveyed [from the converts] by some Companions and Followers [tâbicûn] as sign of trust. Later, the scholars who came after them were fooled by such reports and supported that the Sacrificed was Isaac(P). Every book of exegesis [tafsîr] or biography or even history would mention the argument that took place among the salaf. However, some [of those books] would follow the argument by outlining the truth and others wouldn’t add any commentary either by conviction or surrender [to these reports].[2]
Further Evidence From Hadîth Literature
The following says:
Some reports and traditions from the Companions and Followers state that the Sacrificed is Ishmael(P). Narrated by al-Hâkim in Al-Mustadrak, and Ibn Jarîr [at-Tabarî] in his commentary with its isnâd, and others that cAbdullâh Ibn Sacîd al-Sâbihy said: "We were at Mu’âwiyah’s reception and the people started discussing [the story of] Ishmael and Isaac(P) and which one was the sacrificed. Some said Ishmael and some said Isaac(P). Mu’âwiyah said: I am the expert you need; We were at the Prophet’s(P) when a bedouin came to him saying “O Prophet of God, I have left the pasture dry and the life hard, the children died and the wealth is gone, so give me [something] of what God has bestowed on you, O Son of the two sacrificed.” The Prophet(P) smiled and did not blame/criticize what he said. The people asked: Who are the two sacrificed O Commander of the believers? He replied: When cAbdul Muttalib was ordered to dig Zamzam he vowed to sacrifice one of his sons if God helps him with his mission . When he achieved the mission, he cast lots on his children, there were ten of them. The choice fell on cAbdullâh so he decided to sacrifice him but the child’s uncles, Banu Makhzûm, opposed the sacrifice and said satisfy your Lord and ransom your son. So, he ransomed him with a hundred camels. Mu’âwiyah said: this is one [of the two Sacrificed] the other is Ishmael(P)."
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planten
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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logically speaking, no one could corrupt all these verses by adding Isaac and leaving “your only son” if indeed your only son means what you want it to mean in Biblical point of view. In Biblical point of view, your only son means:
Isaac was the only promised child of Abraham by his wife. Ishmael was never a promised son. It does not need a promise to go fetch any woman and get her pregnant.
Isaac was conceived miraculously to a barren mother. Ishmael was conceived normally without the need of any miraculous intervention.
God promised that it would be Isaac’s descendants who would inherit the land given to Abraham. (Genesis 13:14-18, 15:18-21, 28:13-14).
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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De_Maria
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No. They are early Muslim Scholars:
The account naming Isaac comes down to us through Abu Kurayb- Zayd b. al-Hubab- al-Hasan b. Dinar- 'Ali b. Zayd b. Jud’an- al-Hasan- al-Ahnaf b. Qays- al-'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib- THE PROPHET in a conversation in which he said, “Then we ransomed him with a tremendous victim.” And he also said, “HE IS ISAAC.” 'According to Abu Kurayb - Ibn Yaman-Mubarak - al-Hasan-al-Ahnaf b. Qays-al - 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib: The quote, “Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim,” refers to Isaac.
According to al-Husayn b. Yazid al-Tahhan - Ibn Idris - Dawud b. Abi Hind - 'Ikrimah - Ibn 'Abbas: The one whom Abraham was ordered to sacrifice was Isaac.
According to Ya’qub - Ibn 'Ulayyah - Dawud - 'Ikrimah - Ibn 'Abbas: The victim was Isaac.
According to Ibn al-Muthanna - Muhammad b. Ja’far - Shu’bah - Abu Ishaq - Abu al-Ahwas: A certain man boasted to Ibn Mas’ud, “I am so-and-so son of so-and-so, son of the noble elders.” And 'Abdallah said,“This is Joseph b. Jacob, son of Isaac the victim of God, son of Abraham the Friend of God.”
According Ibn Humayd - Ibrahi, b. al-Mukhtar - Muhammad b. Ishaq - 'Abd al-Rahman b. Abi Bakr - al-Zyhri - al-‘Ala’ b. Jariyah al-Thaqafi - Abu Hurayrah - Ka’b: When God said, “Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim,” He was speaking of Abraham’s son Isaac.
According to Ibn Humayd - Salamah - Muhammad b. Ishaq- 'Abdallah b. Abi Bakr - Muhammad b. Muslim al-Zuri - Abu Sufyan b. al-‘Ala’ b. Jariyah al-Thaqafi, the confederate of Banu Zuhrah - Abu Hurayrah - Ka’b al-Ahbar: The son whom Abraham was commanded to sacrifice was Isaac.
According to Yunus - Ibn Wahb - Yunus - Ibn Shihab - ‘Amr b. Abi Sufyan b. Usayd b. Jariyah al-Thaqafi: Ka’b said to Abu Hurayrah, "Should I tell you about Isaac, the son of the prophet Abraham? Abu Hurayrah said, “Certainly.” So Ka’b gave the following account: "When Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac, Satan said
By God! If I cannot deceive the people of Abraham with this, I shall never be able to do it.' .... According to 'Amr b. Ali - Abu 'Asim - Sufyan - Zayd b. Aslam - 'Abdallah b. 'Ubayd b. 'Umayr - his father: Moses said, "O Lord! Why are you addressed as O God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?’" God answered, “Abraham never considered anything at all equal to Me, but put Me above all things; Isaac was generous to Me in the matter of the sacrifice and in other matters; and as for Jacob, the more tribulations I inflicted upon him the more good thoughts he thought about me.”And there are more.
answering-islam.org/Shamoun/sacrifice.htm
Sincerely,
De Maria
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De_Maria
Guest
A very good point.
It is an issue central to Judaism and Christianity however. And yet we find Islam is confused and conflicted about a point which is not central to its theology.
Ishmael is Abraham’s only son by the slave Hagar.
Isaac is Abraham’s is the only son of his WIFE and FREEWOMAN Sara.
And this is precisely the sign and reason for the theology of Jews and Christians. We are born to be free of enslavement to sin.
The only son in question is named. Thank you.
His only son from his wife.
He was speaking to Hagar.
He was yet Abram, not Abraham.
Ishmael was circumcised but not sacrificed.
No, he had an only son by Hagar and he had an only son by his wife.
Shalome
Sincerely,
De Maria
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meedo
Guest
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meedo
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according to the bible it doesnt say anything abiout promised son , it just says a son!! you are adding to the verses what it doesnt contain . Ishmael is the son of abraham period . Thus he is the only son that is mentioned in teh sacrifiece. simple and pure logic .
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meedo
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This is desperate De Maria!! Hagar was a ligetamate wife as sarah was . ihsmael was a ligitimate son as Isac was .
By your flawed logic, half the sons of israel are not real sons of Jacob!!!
You are just bieng desperate.
Any way . Point is made . Only son is only son . It can happen to the eldest son only , which is Ishmael. which is refferred to as a son in gazillion times in the bible .
bye
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